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Author Topic: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!  (Read 7992 times)

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alexis

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #180 on: July 08, 2008, 03:54:57 PM »

Quote from: 56

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :)) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.


These are very high expectations for translation of documents that are thousands of years old, I think this is a case of missing the forest for the trees (or the burning bush  ;) ). Scholars have disagreements about all sorts of ancient translations, what is the rational basis for expecting Biblical era texts to be any different, requiring their translations to be crystalline clear?  

But stepping back, focusing on things like comparisons of translations and the like isn't really what it's all about, IMO.There is no irrefutable proof of all these things, that is why it is called faith. We all seek to find our place as we move along our life journey, and what is right for some may not be the best for others. In the end, I think these things are best pondered by looking in, rather than out.  
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Alexis

Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #181 on: July 08, 2008, 04:36:52 PM »

You shouldn't underestimate what a few translation errors can do. I discussed this with a friend of mine who has a doctorate in history and has read the New Testament in its original language and he believes that there are possibly some crucial translation errors in the New Testament as we know it. It is for instance possible that the whole theory of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary was based on a translation error, as the original word that was translated as 'Virgin' can also mean 'beautiful'. So it could be that the 'Virgin Mary' was really just 'Beautiful Mary'.
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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #182 on: July 08, 2008, 06:02:37 PM »

Quote from: 568

Well, as said above, that is why it is called "faith", not "knowledge", or "theory".  :)

Even within any one of the major religions there are widely varying interpretations of the will of God, and so it's no surprise they also exist between them. If one believes in the afterlife, though, it wouldn't seem that unreasonable for there to be consequences to choices made in this life. So in that case it might not be as silly as you describe... it seems easy enough to imagine that a self-sacrificing altruistic care giver (like Mother Theresa, perhaps, though I really don't know a lot about her) would have an easier time avoiding being "punished in the afterlife" than some greedy robber baron who knowingly causes pain and destruction for their own personal benefit.

I've noticed that it's not that unusual to hear people that have had bad experiences with the religous community, either directly or indirectly, then go on to broad brush believers in God as evil, intolerant, bad, etc. IMO, there are good apples and bad apples in every group of people, and this applies to religous people as well as non-believers. It's ironic (I think that's the right word) that these same people's self-proclaimed identity is often one of extreme tolerance of differences among humanity - but it's quite OK to relax the standards of avoiding prejudgement/prejudice when considering the religous community!

Just for the record, this isn't meant to describe you Joost, I've had absolutely no indication at all that you are anything but one who loves their fellow man (in the general sense ;-) ) This is just something that came to mind as I started typing. I hope I don't come across as a right wing nut case ... but then who does?  :)


Absolutely agree!!! with the thing about faith.
 People profess different religions, but these don`t contradict one another, they are about the same things, amasing as it might seem! as if they all came from one source! They direct us in our life and all show the way up ( not down, mind it ) though the actual way to reach the top is different in every religion. Nobody knows who is more right, whose path is more straight. And we needn`t know it...
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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #183 on: July 08, 2008, 06:19:26 PM »

Bobber, you have interpreted my words in the wrong way, sorry! I feel upset that the world it turning unisex, no nice guys, women don`t look female, chidren are not spared certain things. You write "Your belief..." and do you know what my belief is? I haven`t said a word about it! So, you can`t put it this way. I am just giving you some ideas. If i write about Sodom and G. i write what is commonly known and express my concern, kind of worry. By the way, i stated my position on gays, they should have the rights! I have a gay friend, and i support him in everything. But there are some unresolved questions...
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #184 on: July 08, 2008, 07:20:13 PM »

Quote from: 63
I see I can not make myself clear enough. Never mind.

I think I understand what you're saying and I'm not denying that religion is many times the cause (or excuse) for much pain, suffering, and intolerance in the world. But you can't deny that religion has played a positive role in many peoples lives as well. It's not so black and white. Those who kill in the name of their God do so at the behest of a manipulative, power hungry leader whose motives have nothing to do with God most of the time. There are cults, NON religious cults, that achieve the same insanity. It has nothing to do with God or faith. It's the mass organization of weak minded people or broken down people who need to have someone to follow. It's just too damn bad that a lot of times the PERSON they choose to follow is nothing more than a sociopath who wants nothing more than to have power over people.

However, religion can often become very cultish. Not always dangerous, but mindless none the less. I went to a born again Christian church a couple of times with a girl I met at work. Don't ask me why! It freaked me out! I started to feel like I was in a room of brain washed sheep. They were all too much alike. Very creepy. Not at all how church was when I was growing up which was more robotic. Stand up, kneel, sit down, etc. Most people just going through the motions until they can get home and watch football.

BTW, you shouldn't get frustrated. You make a lot of great points. I hope you don't take the debate as an argument or attack. It's certainly not meant that way! In a discussion as heavy as this, it's hard to ever know who is wrong and who is right. If anyone!  :)
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #185 on: July 08, 2008, 07:30:29 PM »

Quote from: 56

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :)) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.

You're splitting hairs here. Lots of semantics at play. Yet the overall message remains the same. I would say it's pretty much common sense that if you're not supposed to covet your neighbor's wife then that means you should pretty much stay away from his cattle too. Or his BMW for that matter.

And again, these are not the LAW for Christians. But then I already went into that on another post that apparently meant nothing.
Quote
(yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :))
Condescending? Nah!  ;)
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Mairi

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #186 on: July 08, 2008, 07:31:16 PM »

Yes, it's a very complex issue. We can't just make blanket statements like "all religion is bad" or "all religion is evil". There are many layers.
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Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #187 on: July 09, 2008, 06:30:42 AM »

Quote from: 216
You're splitting hairs here. Lots of semantics at play. Yet the overall message remains the same.

I know the differences are minimal. But it's a fact that there are differences in interpretation/translation, there's censorship (the Catholic church pretty much omitted "You shall not make for yourself an idol" and replaced it by splicing the Tenth Commandment in two) and apparently some people took the liberty of slightly rearranging the first two commandments... I'd say it would take some nerves to take what you believe to be the Word of God and even slightly rearrange it...

I was just trying to show that even something as (seemingly) clear and simple as the Ten Commandments have been subject to distortion by humans. So who knows what might have happened to all those more complex stories in the Bible that so many people take VERY literally?
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #188 on: July 09, 2008, 07:10:14 AM »

Quote from: 56

So who knows what might have happened to all those more complex stories in the Bible that so many people take VERY literally?

That's the real problem. It's SO not meant to be taken literally, yet that's what people insist on doing. Again, mostly to justify their own hang ups.
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Bobber

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #189 on: July 09, 2008, 07:37:46 AM »

Quote from: 216
BTW, you shouldn't get frustrated. You make a lot of great points.

I bet you're referring to the Bob Spitz-remark!  ;D
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Kevin

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #190 on: July 09, 2008, 02:47:53 PM »

I try and draw a distinction between faith and religion (I'm totally Godless by the way.) All human societies everywhere at everytime have had some kind of belief. But anything organised on any scale by humans will be corrupted - religion, politics, the music business etc etc. I think to denounce religion for this is to miss a basic point about human nature.
And I can't forget that faith (and therefore I guess religion - we humans love to organise ) must have been a huge evolutionary tool for bonding societies, and if that was achieved at the cost of a distrust of non-believers or a false sense of superiority so be it. I for one don't want to go back to sitting in trees throwing turds at hyenas.
For many years I had complete faith in science to provide the answers we all want. But now when I read about things like string theory (completerly unmeasurable, unobservable and uneverything else) science has invented in an attempt to explain why things we thought were universal like space, time and gravity don't appear to work (or even exist) once we start delving into the world beyond the one we can see, has made me loose a lot of faith in science as well. Isn't inventing a completely unproveable theory to explain something we don't understand the very thing scientists have been mocking the faithful for doing for years?
I think Geoff said it earlier - maybe there are some things we aren't meant to understand. We are after all just chatty apes. But we all ask the questions. Fine by me if people find those answers in religion. And before anyone uses the old cliche "but religion causes wars" - so does politics. But we accept politics downside as an unfortunate consequence of the good things it provides. I think we should accord religion the same respect.
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Geoff

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #191 on: July 09, 2008, 03:11:21 PM »

Slight correction: not "not meant to understand-" can't understand; my point was that human mental capacities are limited just like they are for every other creature on the planet, but we can't see that fact because we've the best brains of the lot. It's easy for us to see that a cat's brain is limited, but there's no creature on Earth to show us how our brains are limited, too.
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Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #192 on: July 09, 2008, 03:49:10 PM »

I think that deep down, every human being knows in his heart what's wrong and what's right. We all know we shouldn't kill, steal, lie, cheat or be an aggressive prick in general etc. And I think the only thing that really matters is that you try to not do the things that you know you shouldn't do. Everything that organized religion adds to that are to me just culturally determined rituals. Nothing more than that.
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alexis

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #193 on: July 09, 2008, 05:53:59 PM »

Quote from: 56
I think that deep down, every human being knows in his heart what's wrong and what's right. We all know we shouldn't kill, steal, lie, cheat or be an aggressive prick in general etc. And I think the only thing that really matters is that you try to not do the things that you know you shouldn't do. Everything that organized religion adds to that are to me just culturally determined rituals. Nothing more than that.

We run into problems here, I believe. Whose definition of wrong or right? If it were mine, the world would be just fine. But if it were that guy's over there, we've got problems ...

Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed. Those are the ones that can't be held liable for their actions (in our country we call it innocent by reasons of insanity). You gotta wonder about Phil Spector too, I'd blame him for LIB otherwise ...

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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #194 on: July 09, 2008, 06:39:23 PM »

Quote from: 568

We run into problems here, I believe. Whose definition of wrong or right? If it were mine, the world would be just fine. But if it were that guy's over there, we've got problems ...

Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed. Those are the ones that can't be held liable for their actions (in our country we call it innocent by reasons of insanity). You gotta wonder about Phil Spector too, I'd blame him for LIB otherwise ...


I agree. Who can tell right from wrong? Some governments tried to do it. People believed them, by the way. And where are they now? Removed, overthrown, gone. And now everybody believes they were wrong, we are sure they were wrong. What can secure us from further mistakes? And religion has gone through centuries and even millenniums, many people have questioned it and rejected it and what - back to basics, it`s still there. Look at Russia- no religion for 70 years enough to kill any religious sentiment, to nip in the bud, two generations without religion. And what? Now a lot of people there go to church. Nobody knows yet anything better, more unbiased, devoid of human interest, if i may put it this way.
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Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #195 on: July 09, 2008, 11:33:43 PM »

Quote from: 568
Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed.

Just because people do things that are wrong doesn't mean that they don't know it's wrong... If they're honest to themselves...
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #196 on: July 10, 2008, 12:43:11 AM »



(teeth1)
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #197 on: July 10, 2008, 02:31:58 AM »

Quote from: 63

I bet you're referring to the Bob Spitz-remark!  ;D

LOL!  ;D


Well, your Beatle knowledge is unquestionable! No question about it. I would never question you knowledge of the Beatles.  :X
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #198 on: July 10, 2008, 02:34:45 AM »

Quote from: 56

Just because people do things that are wrong doesn't mean that they don't know it's wrong... If they're honest to themselves...

People without a conscience think they are justified in doing whatever it is they want to do. They don't believe the same standards of behavior apply to them. And people who are clinically insane very well might not know wrong from right. But I think this is a very select few.
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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #199 on: July 10, 2008, 06:23:25 PM »

A human being tends to justify themselves in everything. Then they start to believe that it was even the only possible and correct thing to do. Be honest to yourself and remember several occasions you did it too. Human nature is imperfect.
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