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Author Topic: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!  (Read 7941 times)

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Kevin

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #200 on: July 11, 2008, 08:15:30 AM »

Quote from: 568
"... millions of people who believe in God have been killed by those who don't believe in God" .

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......
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Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #201 on: July 11, 2008, 08:28:32 AM »

Quote from: 185
Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......

Good point...

The troubles in Northern Ireland for instance are often described as a conflict between protestants and catholics, but I think it's safe to say that religion didn't actually have a whole lot to do with that.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #202 on: July 11, 2008, 08:59:28 AM »

Quote from: 56

Good point...

The troubles in Northern Ireland for instance are often described as a conflict between protestants and catholics, but I think it's safe to say that religion didn't actually have a whole lot to do with that.

Religion really had nothing to do with it at all. This was a struggle between the Nationalists (predominately Catholic), and the Unionists (predominately Protestant), about Northern Ireland's status within the UK. Not about whether it was right or wrong to be of either faith.
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Joost

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #203 on: July 11, 2008, 09:33:47 AM »

Quote from: 483

Religion really had nothing to do with it at all. This was a struggle between the Nationalists (predominately Catholic), and the Unionists (predominately Protestant), about Northern Ireland's status within the UK. Not about whether it was right or wrong to be of either faith.

Yet if you're dealing with a principally catholic and a principally protestant camp that hate each other's guts it's inevitable that religion will get dragged into the whole thing. Even the IRA and UVF obviously did a lot of things that in no way can be religiously justified.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #204 on: July 11, 2008, 09:39:01 AM »

Quote from: 56

Yet if you're dealing with a principally catholic and a principally protestant camp that hate each other's guts it's inevitable that religion will get dragged into the whole thing. Even the IRA and UVF obviously did a lot of things that in no way can be religiously justified.

Oh sure, but it wasn't what started it, or even what drove it on. I think there's been more violence at a Rangers-Celtic match because of religious beliefs. The thing is that it was your religion that singled you out - so if you were Catholic, people would assume you were a Nationalist. Even if you weren't.
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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #205 on: July 11, 2008, 10:45:56 AM »

Quote from: 185

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......

I think most wars are the result of striving for power. At least that`s what they appear to have been so far. Future conflicts or wars may be racial ones.
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Kevin

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #206 on: July 11, 2008, 11:45:37 AM »

Quote from: 1393

I think most wars are the result of striving for power. At least that`s what they appear to have been so far. Future conflicts or wars may be racial ones.

Both Germany and Japan considered their racial superiority the basis for their territorial rights. the majority of Stalins crimes were commiterd against non-Russian ethnic groups. I think it is very much with us now.
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Jane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #207 on: July 11, 2008, 02:06:53 PM »

Quote from: 185

Both Germany and Japan considered their racial superiority the basis for their territorial rights. the majority of Stalins crimes were commiterd against non-Russian ethnic groups. I think it is very much with us now.

Oh, yes, i agree with you. The strange thing is that Stalin himself wasn`t a Russian, he was a Georgian from the South of the country. He removed some ethnic groups to other parts, for example the Crimean Tatars, and eliminated, killed, a large amount of educated people, especially scientists, of various nationalities. The world hasn`t grown any wiser.
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #208 on: November 06, 2008, 01:07:00 AM »

I knew we were getting ahead of ourselves with the congratulations:


[size=14]California Approves Gay Marriage Ban[/size]
By LISA LEFF


LOS ANGELES (Nov. 5) - Voters put a stop to same-sex marriage in California, dealing a crushing defeat to gay-rights activists in a state they hoped would be a vanguard, and putting in doubt as many as 18,000 same-sex marriages conducted since a court ruling made them legal this year.

The gay-rights movement had a rough election elsewhere as well Tuesday. Ban-gay-marriage amendments were approved in Arizona and Florida, and Arkansas voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents. Supporters made clear that gays and lesbians were their main target.

But California, the nation's most populous state, had been the big prize. Spending for and against Proposition 8 reached $74 million, the most expensive social-issues campaign in U.S. history and the most expensive campaign this year outside the race for the White House. Activists on both sides of the issue saw the measure as critical to building momentum for their causes.

"People believe in the institution of marriage," Frank Schubert, co-manager of the Yes on 8 campaign said after declaring victory early Wednesday. "It's one institution that crosses ethnic divides, that crosses partisan divides. ... People have stood up because they care about marriage and they care a great deal."
With almost all precincts reporting, election returns showed the measure winning with 52 percent. Some provisional and absentee ballots remained to be tallied, but based on trends and the locations of the votes still outstanding, the margin of support in favor of the initiative was secure.
Exit polls for The Associated Press found that Proposition 8 received critical support from black voters who flocked to the polls to support Barack Obama for president. Blacks voted strongly in favor of the ban, while whites narrowly opposed it and Latinos and Asians were split.
Californians overwhelmingly passed a same-sex marriage ban in 2000, but gay-rights supporters had hoped public opinion on the issue had shifted enough for this year's measure to be rejected.

"We pick ourselves up and trudge on," said Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights. "There has been enormous movement in favor of full equality in eight short years. That is the direction this is heading, and if it's not today or it's not tomorrow, it will be soon."
The constitutional amendment limits marriage to heterosexual couples, nullifying the California Supreme Court decision that had made same-sex marriages legal in the state since June.

Similar bans had prevailed in 27 states before Tuesday's elections, but none were in California's situation
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alexis

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #209 on: November 06, 2008, 01:12:38 AM »

Well, I suspect this is just the end of the beginning, and there will be more to the story. The demographics of those who voted in favor of the ban (old) as opposed to those who were against the ban (young) suggest this will probably pass when it comes up again over the next few years.
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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #210 on: November 06, 2008, 01:13:03 AM »

I'm really shocked that gay marriage was voted down in California of all places. It may be sort of a superficial state, but with LA (known for being liberal), and San Francisco, one of the biggest gay communities, I really thought that gay marriage was going to happen. *sigh*

However, I think Obama will definitely change this gay marriage situation.
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #211 on: November 06, 2008, 01:28:58 AM »

Eddie Izzard on California:


..."he said,
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Penny Lane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #212 on: November 06, 2008, 01:31:51 AM »

I'm from California and I am furious, saddened, and embarrassed that the gay marriage ban passed.  People are ridiculous in their reasoning against gay marriage.  "Protecting the sanctity of marriage" my arse.  Straight people screw up marriage all the damn time.  If people were truly so concerned about "protecting marriage," then why not ban divorce too?  This kind of political rhetoric does not make sense to me personally, and it just seems like more of a disguise to hide possible hatred, prejudice, and blind ignorance against homosexuals.

BTW, being a native of the state, I don't exactly appreciate having us being called superficial.  It's just as unfair as saying all New Yorkers are rude or that anyone from the South is a hick.  I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm just saying it's an unfair sweeping generalization.  It's not like we all think and act like Paris Hilton.
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Sondra

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #213 on: November 06, 2008, 01:39:56 AM »

And most of the flakes are transplants from other states. My best friend, who is a native to Los Angeles says every now and then God tips the country to its side and all the lunatics land in California. I tease her a lot about LA and its so called superficiality, but she gives it right back about those loud, obnoxious people we know as New Yorkers. It's okay if it's all in fun, but yeah, generalizing the population of a state that's bigger than most countries is a bit unfair.
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Penny Lane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #214 on: November 06, 2008, 01:46:10 AM »

^  Thanks, Sandra. :)

I didn't mean to sound uptight, but it gets annoying when outsiders judge us all based on the various kooky celebrities in our state.  I love that California is pretty weird in some parts, but I just wanted to get the word out that we're not all vacuous and stupid too.  ;)
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alexis

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #215 on: November 06, 2008, 01:55:36 AM »

Quote from: 568
...Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.
  
Quote from: 185

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......


There may be an ergo in there, but I don't see it. You say most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. I listed Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WWI - do you think these were? WWI, WWII, the Korean war, the Vietnamese war, the Maldives/Falkland war - these wars were all between people who prayed to the same God, do you classify them as ethnic/religious wars?  What about the wars Rome had, weren't they for the sake of territory and resources more than "ethnicity"? Sure some wars are ethnically/religiously based (Iraq/Iran, Israel/Palestinians), but there are so many that aren't that I would think it might be a bit of a stretch to say most are.

I'd be very interested in hearing if you think these were ethnically/religiously based.  
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Mairi

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #216 on: November 12, 2008, 01:36:27 AM »

Quote from: 1620
BTW, being a native of the state, I don't exactly appreciate having us being called superficial.  It's just as unfair as saying all New Yorkers are rude or that anyone from the South is a hick.  I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm just saying it's an unfair sweeping generalization.  It's not like we all think and act like Paris Hilton.

You're right. I'm sorry. I don't really think that all Californians are superficial, that was just sort of an offhanded comment.

You are now free to make a joke about seal-clubbing, alcoholic Nova Scotians.

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Penny Lane

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #217 on: November 12, 2008, 04:04:27 AM »

^  It's okay, all is forgiven.............[size=9]stupid Canadian[/size].............just kidding!!   :P :P :P
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harihead

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #218 on: November 12, 2008, 07:30:42 AM »

Keith Olbermann has a wonderful, moving, eloquently expressed special commentary on the gay marriage ban.

hnHyy8gkNEE
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Mairi

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Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
« Reply #219 on: November 13, 2008, 01:59:01 AM »

That was really touching, harihead. Thanks for posting it.
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