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[Joost]

I love them a lot Joost . I had three but Andy who was my best friend was batterd to death in January of 2000
A kinder more centle person you could'nt  wish to meet .
To this day i can't believe people can be so cruel .

Sorry about your friend... (and sorry for my really lame joke)

You often hear parents say that they hope their children don't turn out to be homosexual. And that's not always because they're homophobic or because they want grandchildren or anything. Often it's purely because they know that homosexuals run the risk of becoming the victim of hate crimes, intolerance and discrimination. So sometimes you can't even really blame parents for not wanting to accept that a child turns out to be homosexual. Isn't that messed up?

[DaveRam]

I got the joke Joost (wink1)

[Jane]

I understand tkitna. Do you think it is alright for children to observe it all? Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it. And if it happens at an early age, at 10-14, children succumb, because at this age habits are formed and preferences are shaped. They do not quite see what is happening. I know a guy who said, if you once had it, it is hard to give it up, you are sure to return to it again. It`s like drugs. Jodie Foster watched her mother being in love with a woman who helped her raise the kids, and later was seduced by that woman, and became lesbian herself, which she publicly admitted not long ago ( though we certainly knew it ) If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man? Just imagine. Tkitna has children and you, young people , i suppose, i am sure, don`t. So you can`t understand him. This is a very hard topic, when it concerns our children. What do mothers, fathers and grandparents think on the subject?

[Bobber]

If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Huh?

[Jane]

I wouldn`t. I have a niece.

[Bobber]

But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?

[Joost]

Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it.

I don't believe that at all. What's your source?

[Joost]

If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Hmmm, let's see... "Dad, I think I'm a lesbian. What should I do? Find a girlfriend that I can be happy with for the rest of my life? Or find a boyfriend because that's what society wants me to do? And then just hope that, even though I'm not the least bit attracted to men, I can tolerate him enough to keep up the scam?"

I can assure you that I would absolutely forbid her to pick option two.

[Bobber]

Being a father of three, it would be absolutely fine with me if one, two or all should turn out to be gay or lesbian. As long as they're happy being the way they are, that is as much as I can wish for. As a matter of fact, two of my best friends are a lesbian couple and my boys ask them about it. They know: two people can fall in love. Mostly it's man and woman, but sometimes it's two men or two women. In our house there is nothing wrong with that. Still, I respect Todd's vision tho I'm not sharing it.

[Joost]

Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?

[Mairi]

I'm really sorry if anyone had their feelings hurt by this topic. That was not my intention when I started this thread. Although I must say, it's been an interesting discussion so far.

Tkitna, I was raised Christian, too, and I consider myself a Christian. I don'f believe that homosexuality is unnatural, though. In fact you can see it in nature. There are gay animals, too.
I heard a theory that the reason that quote about homosexuality being an abomination is in the bible is because in those times, warriors would rape their opponents after defeating them in battle. The bible has been translated and re-translated so many times, how do we know what's true and what's an error? What happened and what's a parable? Just remember that the bible was also used to support slavery and opression of women. And what about premaritial sex? According to the bible, that's a sin, too. Would you throw a straight person out of your house if you knew they had premaritial sex?

What would you say if I told you that I was gay, or bisexual? Would that make me a bad person? Would it make my contributions to the forum any less? Personally I'd rather have my children around a nice gay person than an awful person who was straight.

I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't agree. I used to think that God didn't want people of the same sex to be married but now I realize he doesn't care as long as they are treating each other right.

[Jane]

But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.

[Jane]

Ok. WE should respect everybody`s choice. And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line? Who will tell us? Why should you say, that is unnatural, they are turned on like this. Who is to judge them? Your premise is that everything is natural. So...? If a person is gay, i think we must take him/her as they are, respect them, and all that goes with it. But maybe children should be spared this imposition on them from everywhere, from the mass media especially. There are some people born gays, but usually they are spotted immediatelly due to their hermophrodic appearance, the rest are teased into it, or fall into it when very young.
See you all on Sunday! I am leaving for a few days, and, by the way, gonna speak to my wise gay friend, who says it`s like drugs. I like him a lot!

[DaveRam]

Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?

One great benefit with this dilemma Joost is if i woke up , and i was a women i would always be right in any argument with a man

(rolling3)

[tkitna]

Well, lets also take a look at the word 'unnatural'. What does it mean? In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?

Also, not to get off topic, but this is going towards earlier posts (I think it was Joost who asked me if it was a bad thing to not be religious,,,if i'm wrong sorry), but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

[Sondra]

Sandra, you brought up very valid points. As for my religious beliefs, I for some reason, have always taken the Old Testament as the actual meanings of God. I was taught that God, although an image of peace and love, was also stern to people who did not obey his will. The New Testament to me was always the teachings of Jesus who in turn took Gods lessons and (in another words) lightened them up. Meaning that people werent good enough to really follow the strict order that God commanded. As if they would fail regardless so Jesus added some loopholes in the rules. Even being Gods son, Jesus was allowed to be punished also, but alas, for our sins. I'm almost guaranteed to be wrong, but i've always felt deep down that it was better to follow Gods rules than the messengers even if it was Jesus, but thats my own personal ideal.  

Thanks for the response Todd. I appreciate it. I guess I was taught the opposite. That the New Testament is the book Christians are to follow. But I haven't been to church or religious classes for quite some time now! I don't even know what I believe in anymore. Sort of agnostic at this point. But that Catholic upbringing is HARD to shake. I'm telling you. They do a number on kids for sure.  ??)

[Joost]

And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line?

Where to draw the line? That's easy: there has to be a mutual agreement to have sex. So homosexuality = OK... necrophilia, bestiality, pedophilia = not OK.

[Joost]

In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?

That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority.  

but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States

[Bobber]

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.

To answer your question: it would be fine with me if she turned out to be lesbian, as long as she's a happy person.

[Sondra]

That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority.  



Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States

Yet,some of our greatest leaders were people who were greatly driven by their religious convictions. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Abraham Lincoln spring to mind. You see the dilemma here?

You can't say it's one way or the other. People who blame religion for the word's problems are just as wrong as people who blame lack of religion. Both seem to carry smug attitudes and lists of one sided wrong doings. No wonder the world is in such a state. People refuse to look farther than their own nose.

When people don't agree with something all they see is what's wrong with it. They waste so much time looking for the negative that they miss the big picture. In the meantime, nothing gets accomplished. That's why I can't stand watching biased political programs, comedians, or read biased news articles and websites. You're not getting the truth either way. But people LOVE this stuff because it validates their own feelings. Then they gather up all of these clever quips and shocking statistics to throw out at anyone who thinks otherwise but the other side has their own comments and statistics to counter and it means nothing! It's unproductive. It gets us nowhere. The media loves it though. It's keeping them rich and happy. It's an amazing thing. They've mastered the art of manipulation to the point of where it's scary how much power they have over what people think.