Topic: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage! (Read 6304 times)

HeatherBoo · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2008, 02:03:32 AM »

Everyone is allowed their own opinions. That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.

Joost · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2008, 07:54:04 AM »

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Jane · « **Reply #22 on:** July 01, 2008, 08:20:14 PM »

Quote from: 1204

Everyone is allowed their own opinions. That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Joost · « **Reply #23 on:** July 01, 2008, 08:41:51 PM »

Quote from: 1393

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Sorry, I sincerely apologize if it seems like I am that way. I can assure you that I'm not. But this is just a subject that I'm very passionate about. And about the thing in the Beach Boys topic, well... Maybe I came off a little harsh, but I hope you see what I meant there.

You should realize that just like Tkitna I too am just expressing my opinion. If he can do it, so can I, right? And I'm not saying Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion. It's just that homophobia makes me sad. Life is hard enough as it is, we shouldn't waste our time on telling people who aren't harming anyone that how they live or what they do is wrong. I have a few friends who are homosexual and I know that their love for their partners isn't a lesser kind of love than the love between a woman and a man. But if you tell a homosexual couple that they don't have the same rights as a heterosexual couple, that's exactly what you're basically telling them: that their love isn't as 'real' as heterosexual love.

Jane · « **Reply #24 on:** July 01, 2008, 09:00:45 PM »

Joost!!! You are very nice! and i know that we are all very touchy at times and sensitive. And on that subject you give very good, well-founded arguments, cause everybody has the right to be happy, to love and to be loved. every living creature. Why deprive people of love? Love is what matters, love is what everybody seeks in their lives, love is what gives sense to one`s life. Why be cruel?

Sondra · « **Reply #25 on:** July 01, 2008, 10:33:28 PM »

Quote from: 56

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

Geoff · « **Reply #26 on:** July 01, 2008, 11:00:29 PM »

Quote from: 56

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

I agree.

Sondra · « **Reply #27 on:** July 01, 2008, 11:33:55 PM »

Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my ass otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.

Sondra · « **Reply #28 on:** July 01, 2008, 11:51:54 PM »

Quote from: 56

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

.

There's SO much more to human nature than this as to what makes a person feel comfortable or uncomfortable. You can't fully understand a human being from one statement or one feeling. And to expect people to only feel the way you feel they should feel or think the way you think they should think on such matters is just as intolerant an attitude to take on as the one you're taking issue with.

Not to say that this is what you're implying. I'm just saying that if you live with other human beings, then you have to accept that people will have different ways of looking at things. This does not always mean they are bad or ignorant or phobic. You really don't know unless you take the time to know them. And if you find out that they think certain things or feel certain ways for reasons you don't agree with, you then have the choice to not associate with them. But at least there would be discussion and some sort of attempt to understand the individual based on more than a couple of statements.

HeatherBoo · « **Reply #29 on:** July 02, 2008, 12:35:51 AM »

Oh I wasn't coming down on anyone! I am happy that everyone is sharing their thoughts even if I do not agree with them. I just meant that we should all be happy that we can think for ourselves and not have to worry about getting in trouble for it.

And as time goes one, things change and people change. I think sometimes people get set in their ways (the way it was when they were young, what was acceptable then and what was not) and so that's why it takes time for things to change because some people are really against change. Now that the younger generation can vote and homosexuality has been more open during their lifetime, they are more willing to be for it rather than against it like the older generation who, when they were younger, it was not as accepted.

Joost · « **Reply #30 on:** July 02, 2008, 06:59:23 AM »

Quote from: 216

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

you're free to be christian,
OK, let me rephrase that to Christian or Jewish. 78% Of all Americans are Christian or Jewish... 100% of all senators are Christian or Jewish. So that's 30 million atheists, 6 million Buddhists, 1 million Muslims and 1 million Hindus without any representatives. Or a chance to ever get a high political position. They're even using it against Obama now that his father was born a Muslim.

patriotic
Remember what happend to the Dixie Chicks?

and heterosexual
See above.

I know that not nearly all Americans are that close minded, but fact is that life is easier if you're christian, patriotic and heterosexual.

Sondra · « **Reply #31 on:** July 02, 2008, 08:10:53 AM »

Okay, I see we're coming from two entirely different places here so I'm just going to bow out. I totally respect where you're coming from and hope you don't judge me on my nationality. Yes, this country is not perfect, but then what country is? Especially one as huge. I just don't get what people want. Personally, I think it's going in the right direction. Has been for quite some time. Slowly YES and with many bumps along the way! Especially these last, uh, eight or so years. But again, it's the people that count and the people are becoming more enlightened and are slowly seeing to it that things are moving forward.

Remember, this country isn't that old and if you stack its history up against any other country I feel we'd all come out a bit tarnished. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

PS
The Dixie Chicks are just obnoxious anyway and they play to an audience that they KNOW doesn't believe what they believe in. I think they're hypocrites in that sense and it was probably more of a publicity stunt than we realize. There's been plenty of artists that have protested and haven't had that kind of negative feedback. Part of the reason is how it was done and by who. There's a big picture to be looked at there. Doubtful that Bob Dylan or someone of his talent and reputation would have gotten the same flack. But then he would have done it in a way more intelligent way. Not like some chick trying to be hip for the sake of record sales and coolness.

Joost · « **Reply #32 on:** July 02, 2008, 08:20:31 AM »

Quote from: 216

Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

I hope you're right. I'll be a bit more optimistic if Obama will be elected.

Joost · « **Reply #33 on:** July 02, 2008, 08:33:22 AM »

But we're getting too far off topic and I should really try to be a bit less offensive... Sorry for that.

Sondra · « **Reply #34 on:** July 02, 2008, 09:27:07 AM »

You weren't being offensive at all! It was a great discussion from everyone involved. And great discussions sometimes veer off topic I guess! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm hope it was okay that I butt in in the middle of the conversation!

BTW, I realize that I'm probably way too much of an idealist when it comes to wishing the best from people. Which is weird because most of the time I don't feel I have much faith in mankind! Much of the time I feel like a big hypocrite myself when I go on about things getting better! Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it or something.

DaveRam · « **Reply #35 on:** July 02, 2008, 09:53:18 AM »

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

Joost · « **Reply #36 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:29:33 AM »

Quote from: 216

You weren't being offensive at all!

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?

Joost · « **Reply #37 on:** July 02, 2008, 10:32:43 AM »

Quote from: 971

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "f**s will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

DaveRam · « **Reply #38 on:** July 02, 2008, 11:24:52 AM »

They pick up on the couple of passages in the Bible that do mention it Joost .
But Jesus himself never mentions it , his teachings are clear love thy neighbour and let he who is without sin cast the first stone .
Also it's not one of the Ten Commandments .Only adultery warrents such a condemnation .
For me the words of Jesus and the Ten Commandments indicate God and Jesus are indifferent to homosexuality they don't have a clearly expressed opinion on the matter .
So i take from that it's OK to love thy neighbour so long as it's not someone else's wife .
Clear as mud as they say .

Sondra · « **Reply #39 on:** July 02, 2008, 05:40:17 PM »

Quote from: 56

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?

Nah, I can get that at just about any other site I visit! And do. :-/

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Author Topic: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage! (Read 6304 times)