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Author Topic: And I Love Her - 2nd chord  (Read 3659 times)

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alexis

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And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« on: October 10, 2008, 04:03:31 AM »

Hi guys - Have you ever played that 2nd chord ("... all my love") as an E6 instead of a C#m? Give it a try, let me know what you think!

I've always seen it written as a C#m, and played it that way, but listening to Paul's (very muted and muddy) bass line on AHDN, I'm pretty sure he drops to an E.

I love playing it this way (E6), let me know what you guys think please -

Thanks! :)
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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2008, 09:23:05 AM »

In the intro Paul drops to an E on bass, I am also sure in the key change instead of a D Paul cheekys in an A. The Outro, Paul Drops to the F.

All of them work great at different times...I know wat u mean about the bass being a bit muddy. ;)
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Casbah

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 02:26:19 AM »

Paul is playing bass chords on that and he plays E on the second pass of the guitar intro, but when the lyrics kick in, he drops to C#m. The reason it sounds muddy is he is playing the F#m bass chords high in the register as XX46 and C#m lower as X46X.
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McLennon

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 05:35:41 PM »

How is E6 played??

I've always played Cm! Apart from after the guitar solo, on the final verse, I play (as far as I rememer) Fm - Dm!
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Casbah

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2008, 04:18:11 AM »

E6 is played as O22120 (if you are looking at the strings as EADGBE

The E6 is definitely in there, but only when George is playing the intro and then the outro guitar lines. (As F6, since there is the key change)

During the lyrics, the chord is C#m. You can play an E6 and it will sound nice, however, if that's the way you want to do it...
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Kirkwood

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2009, 01:24:37 PM »

I'm not sure what my guys use fingering wise.  You might be able to tell by looking at their fingers.  There is a decent camera angle halfway in.

And I Love Her - Ed Turner and Number 9

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Xose

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 10:55:26 AM »

Dominic Pedler, The Songwriting Secrets of The Beatles, London, Omnibus, 2004, discusses this question at length.

BTW: what do you think about George's use of vibrato in 'And I Love Her' solo vs. his NON-use of vibrato at previous takes from 1964, February the 25th.?? (=in these takes he doesn't play the Ramirez but the Ricky 12...)

I would like to read your opinninons about this topic...

Best!! ;)

Xose
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Pilzkopf

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2009, 08:32:39 AM »

Alexis - the problem with playing solo guitar, especially  using a strumming technique, is that  subtleties of harmony can get lost. It's  often a matter of chance whether you hit  the bass E string or not. But which note is  the lowest note does make a difference.

For example, Am is made up of A, E and C.  The normal configuration on the guitar is  with the bass E not sounded (hopefully),  leaving the A string to provide the strong  tonic note at the bottom of the pile. But  if you plant your fifth finger down on C as  the bass note, the effect is very nearly to  destroy it as a minor chord altogether. Now  it sounds more like C6.  (To hear the  difference it's better to pluck with your  fingers, limiting the sound to the middle  four strings.)

So it's the bass note that really determines what the chord actually is. But rhythm guitarists in a band don't need to  bother too much about the configuration of  a particular chord in terms of which note  to put on which string, because the  all-important bass note is handled by the  bass guitar. It doesn't matter which of  those notes John is playing on the low  string (if he even hits it), because  whatever it is, it's overridden by Paul's  bass.

The point about E6 is that it's basically  Emaj with an alien C# that seems to want to  turn the chord into C#m. And if Paul played C# at that point, that's what would happen. But in the instrumental intro his bass E prevents that, locking the harmony firmly to Emaj. That C# remains just a rogue note  that flavours up the chord a bit. It's his choice of bass note that forces us to recognize Emaj as the  home key. But in the verses, Paul makes as if  C#m is the home key, by playing a low C# instead,  and emphasises the fact by returning to it 3 times with the same  repeated chord change - F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m. He only comes back home at the  end of each verse - "and I love her" - with  a return to Emaj (or E6, depending on what  notes George is playing).

But if you start playing E6 all the way through,  you are losing the harmonic alternation  that Paul created there. The question is, are you playing E6? Quite possibly the reason it sounds okay to you is that you're not hitting the bass E on the sixth string, in which case it will sound like C#m (more or less).
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Bobber

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2009, 09:29:41 AM »

That makes sense!  :)
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Xose

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2009, 11:18:45 AM »

And..., what about George's vibrato in the solo??

BTW: have a look at George's plucked strings in the video (=I mean: those images when the solo is being heard...) I could be wrong but it seems that he is not plucking the right strings..., is he??

Xose
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Pilzkopf

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2009, 03:13:05 PM »

We can't see what his left hand is doing, but I couldn't play it using the strings he's plucking, in the order he's plucking them. I can only assume he re-tuned the guitar in some unorthodox way to get the optimum arrangement of tone and fingering.
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alexis

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2009, 04:30:14 PM »

Quote from: 1943
Alexis - the problem with playing solo guitar, especially  using a strumming technique, is that  subtleties of harmony can get lost. It's  often a matter of chance whether you hit  the bass E string or not. But which note is  the lowest note does make a difference.

For example, Am is made up of A, E and C.  The normal configuration on the guitar is  with the bass E not sounded (hopefully),  leaving the A string to provide the strong  tonic note at the bottom of the pile. But  if you plant your fifth finger down on C as  the bass note, the effect is very nearly to  destroy it as a minor chord altogether. Now  it sounds more like C6.  (To hear the  difference it's better to pluck with your  fingers, limiting the sound to the middle  four strings.)

So it's the bass note that really determines what the chord actually is. But rhythm guitarists in a band don't need to  bother too much about the configuration of  a particular chord in terms of which note  to put on which string, because the  all-important bass note is handled by the  bass guitar. It doesn't matter which of  those notes John is playing on the low  string (if he even hits it), because  whatever it is, it's overridden by Paul's  bass.

The point about E6 is that it's basically  Emaj with an alien C# that seems to want to  turn the chord into C#m. And if Paul played C# at that point, that's what would happen. But in the instrumental intro his bass E prevents that, locking the harmony firmly to Emaj. That C# remains just a rogue note  that flavours up the chord a bit. It's his choice of bass note that forces us to recognize Emaj as the  home key. But in the verses, Paul makes as if  C#m is the home key, by playing a low C# instead,  and emphasises the fact by returning to it 3 times with the same  repeated chord change - F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m. He only comes back home at the  end of each verse - "and I love her" - with  a return to Emaj (or E6, depending on what  notes George is playing).

But if you start playing E6 all the way through,  you are losing the harmonic alternation  that Paul created there. The question is, are you playing E6? Quite possibly the reason it sounds okay to you is that you're not hitting the bass E on the sixth string, in which case it will sound like C#m (more or less).

Nice post, pilz!

I actually get the best of both worlds - I'm a keyboard player, so I can choose whether I want to play the E with my left hand or C#!

I think Paul's choice of saving the E6 chord for the rare "back home" (well, put, pilz!), and not overusing it is a testament to his fantastic innate musical taste. It would have been so easy to play the E6 throughout, but then, IMHO, it would have been like putting Lemon Pepper on everything one eats, not just a few select dishes. On one of the Anthology albums that E6 is somehow really emphasized (maybe John and George are playing the C# too?), that's what got me thinkiing about all this really.

I think Paul is just a complete f*n musical genius. I shudder to think what the world would have lost if George Martin hadn't been flown in to set him off on the right track.

Thanks!
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Alexis

alexis

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2009, 04:31:51 PM »

Quote from: 1785
And..., what about George's vibrato in the solo??

BTW: have a look at George's plucked strings in the video (=I mean: those images when the solo is being heard...) I could be wrong but it seems that he is not plucking the right strings..., is he??

Xose

Link to video please?

By the way Xose and pilz - do guitarists often change the tuning? In the garage bands I've played in they never do, but then again, we've never been too good. Is it mainly a studio thing (too hard to manage on stage)?

Thanks!
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Alexis

Xose

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2009, 04:59:28 PM »

Quote from: 1943
We can't see what his left hand is doing, but I couldn't play it using the strings he's plucking, in the order he's plucking them. I can only assume he re-tuned the guitar in some unorthodox way to get the optimum arrangement of tone and fingering.


That's what I meant. Looking at the strings he is picking, he had to re-tune the guitar in a non-conventonal wa, otherwise he couldn't use those strings to play the notes heard at the solo...

BTW: how would you re-tune your guitar to play the solo in the way George plays it?? Lowering the 4th. string a half step maybe???

I don't know if I am clear enough as English is not my native tongue...

Quote from: 568
...Link to video please?...


Here it is:



I'm referring to minutes 1'48-1'56. Please, do notice the sequence of strings he is plucking. Not all of them do correspond exactly to the notes heard -and indeed fingered- with the left hand...

Best!! ;)

Xose
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Pilzkopf

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2009, 05:43:14 PM »


Quote from: 568

I think Paul's choice of saving the E6 chord for the rare "back home" (well, put, pilz!), and not overusing it is a testament to his fantastic innate musical taste. It would have been so easy to play the E6 throughout, but then, IMHO, it would have been like putting Lemon Pepper on everything one eats, not just a few select dishes.

That's well put. What raises the Beatles above all other bands is their almost casual display of originality. They throw things away, just tossing something astonishing over their shoulder as if it was routine and unremarkable. Other bands find something interesting, and then they make a fetish of it. It keeps popping up in all kinds of places. But the Beatles never repeated themselves. They'd do something once, an exotic chord, an unexpected key change, and they'd never do it again. Next time they'll astonish you with something else. It's the reason there's no such thing as a typical Beatles song. Every one comes out of left field.

Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E.

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alexis

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2009, 10:32:59 PM »

Quote from: 1943

That's well put. What raises the Beatles above all other bands is their almost casual display of originality. They throw things away, just tossing something astonishing over their shoulder as if it was routine and unremarkable. Other bands find something interesting, and then they make a fetish of it. It keeps popping up in all kinds of places. But the Beatles never repeated themselves. They'd do something once, an exotic chord, an unexpected key change, and they'd never do it again. Next time they'll astonish you with something else. It's the reason there's no such thing as a typical Beatles song. Every one comes out of left field.

Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E.


Hello Pilz -

"... and make a fetish out of it...". So very true, I guess that 's why almost every band has a "sound" associated with it, very few are like the Beatles where the range of sonic signatures ranges from I'm Down to Yesterday (recorded the same day!), Julia to Why Don't We do it in the Road. For example: "Yardbirds" - yup, typical sound. Deep Purple? ... ditto, etc. (Stones too, of course!).

Acknowledging that there were some "one-time" gems that the Beatles threw out never to use again (like that C augmented in the "Oooh" backgrounds in All My Loving - where'd that come from, some alien came down and told them to sing it or what?...), and at the risk of sounding pedantic, (  ;) :) ), I might amend that to say once or a few times. What I'm thinking of here is the use of an idea for a few songs, THEN it's discarded. For example:
- The key change to the minor 5th for the middle eight - From Me to You ... I Want to Hold Your Hand.
- Flipping back and forth from the major key to it's minor key  - ... "Things We Said Today" ... "I'll be Back", maybe some others (last chord on "And I Love Her"?).
- Using the minor 4th to get back to the tonic chord, instead of the 5th. John did this a lot around the time of AHDN, though I can't think of any examples off the top of my head  :B
- The identical chords used in "Sexy Sadie" and "Here, There, and Everywhere": G-Am-Bm-C ... John "borrowing" from Paul!

And then, just like you say, these little stylistics gems are discarded, never to be seen again!

It would be fun to make a list of true "1 and done" throwaways like you describe ... I'll start it, can we add to it?

Thanks!

One and Done Musical "Tricks" by the Beatles
1. Dropping from the vi chord to a Flat VI augmented chord (like above - "All My Loving", the bridge: C#m - Caugmented - E.
2. ?

I hope this stuff doesn't sound like I'm too full of BS ... I really love talking about the Beatles chords, sometimes I get carried away ... sorry!

Thanks!

Edit - http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/m-1236475625/
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Alexis

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2009, 11:34:43 AM »

2. I'll Follow the Sun - the melody starts on the dominant G7 and reaches the tonic C via F7. Then it passes straight through to D7.  I've never seen a progression like that before or since. A sub-dominant 7th is not a chord that immediately springs to mind as a way of reaching the tonic.
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Xose

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2009, 01:23:43 PM »

Quote from: 1943
...Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E....

Thanks for your reply!! ;)

I know what are you talking about. But I'm interested SOLELY in that re-tuned Spanish guitar on AILH. What about lowering the 4th. string?? Does he play D on it??

Best!! ;)

Xose
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alexis

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2009, 04:08:17 PM »

Quote from: 1943
2. I'll Follow the Sun - the melody starts on the dominant G7 and reaches the tonic C via F7. Then it passes straight through to D7.  I've never seen a progression like that before or since. A sub-dominant 7th is not a chord that immediately springs to mind as a way of reaching the tonic.

Great one, Pilz. I know now why I have such a hard time remembering these chords, on such a "simple" song - I guess they don't fit a pattern that's been done a zillion times. I always kind of liked how his melody went up in the verse ("You'll know") while the chord went down (G7 -> F7).

Maybe these chords were written this way because it's such an early song he really had no idea about "conventional" chording. I wonder if the middle eight was written a lot later, it seems more in line with typical pop chording...
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Xose

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Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2009, 09:09:15 PM »

Quote from: 568
...Maybe these chords were written this way because it's such an early song he really had no idea about "conventional" chording. I wonder if the middle eight was written a lot later, it seems more in line with typical pop chording...

Yes it was. Middle eight was written at the studio on FEB the 27th....

Xose

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