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Author Topic: Israel vs The Rest  (Read 10320 times)

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J_Moondog

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #80 on: January 12, 2009, 11:25:53 PM »

Quote from: 568

But couldn't a reasonable person respond that that is drastically missing the point - that prior to 1967 Israel had nothing to do with Gaza, the Sinai, Golan Heights and the West Bank, but then it was invaded by the Arabs who had the declared intention of wiping Israel off the map? ... that Israel fought back, and pushed the Arabs back, conquering these lands in the process ... no 1967 invasion of Israel -- no occupation. Simplistic of course, but is it not true?  

 

As far as I understand history, no, it is not true.  There was no 1967 invasion of Israel.  There were some attacks on Israel from Palestinian guerillas in Syria, but this was not considered an act of war by anyone - if it were Israel would have attacked Syria rather than Egypt.  Israel's attack on Egypt (and, consequently, Jordon, who had signed a mutual defense treaty with Egypt) was pre-emptive and therefore illegal and not a response to an invasion because, as far as I know, none occurred.  Egypt was not interesting in "wiping Israel off the map".  On the contrary, they were protecting their own resources from the West's favourite Middle East client state after being attacked previously by the British, French and Israel in 1957.  
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J_Moondog

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #81 on: January 12, 2009, 11:32:11 PM »

Quote from: 568
I agree with you strongly, the military occupation has been brutal and harsh. But (addressing your final point), I don't think the US is at all against the occupation ending, they just want it to end like the one of the Sinai did (peace with Egypt, lasting 20 years or more now), not leaving a situation where Israel's security is mortally threatened. Just my opinion, of course ...


But there is no indication that Israeli security is "mortally threatened".  In fact, Palestinians as a species have been mortally threatened for forty years - to the point where it was looking, for a while, that the species might just evaporate under US-Israeli power.  If the US was concerned at all about peaceful resolutions and the security of people, they would not have allowed that to continue.  Furthermore, they would not have been the only country in the world to reject the international consensus.  

Israel's concern in the settlement is not security and you can find that out by looking Israeli government planning and records from cabinet meetings.  The primary concern is not security (which is rarely mentioned) but access to water - as it is a main economic resource.  The fact is that Israel is much more insecure in their endeavour to control a hostile and marginialized population inside of it than they would be if they accepted political settlement with mutual recognition that is fair.
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adamzero

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2009, 11:51:31 PM »

What's going on in Israel is a direct product of geopolitics.  Israel has nukes, is anti-Iran, and anti-Syria.  It is the joker in the US Gov't's foreign policy deck.  Even Russia and China don't want to mess with them.

The Palestinians, unfortunately, have never had a historic state (unless you want to talk about city-states as ancient as the Philistines) to make a case for "law of reclaim" like Israel's (however mythic/historic that might be).  The Arab states have never been big fans of the Palestinians' cause (or Palestianians--none of the Arab States have been willing to take in the refugees).  "Transjordan" (now Jordan) only took them in unwillingly after the initial partition.  

The Arab States fear jihadists in their own countries (especially Saudi Arabia and Egypt) far more than Israel.  The Arab States must appear to support the Palestianians but I suspect that (like the US in its "terror wars" in which the idea became "fight the terrorists anywhere else but here") would rather see Hamas and other jihad groups pointing their weapons at Israel rather than undermining their own regimes.  

Israel serves an important purpose for the Arab States.  It is the lynchpin holding the middle east together.  If not for it, the various Islamic factions and nation-states would be at each other's throats.  

It's sad, but that's realpolitik.  
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J_Moondog

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #83 on: January 13, 2009, 12:42:09 AM »

Quote from: 9
The Arab states have never been big fans of the Palestinians' cause (or Palestianians--none of the Arab States have been willing to take in the refugees).  "Transjordan" (now Jordan) only took them in unwillingly after the initial partition.  

What, then, do you make of the peace initiative put forth by the Arab League?
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adamzero

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #84 on: January 13, 2009, 02:56:51 AM »

From Wiki (re. the PI):

"However, within Palestine itself the Sunni Islamist political party Hamas, the elected government of the Palestinian territories, is deeply divided, with its officials making both highly supportive and highly negative statements.[2][1] Shiite political party Hezbollah rejects the initiative.[1] Members of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas' military wing, committed the Passover Massacre on March 27, 2002 to sabotage the Beirut Summit.[3][4] The bombing as well as other attacks lead to a deeper escalation of the al-Aqsa Intifada[5] and, as of 2009, the initiative has remained dormant with Palestinian and Israeli leaders unable to move further."

And this:

"The Arab League issued instructions barring the Arab states from granting citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".[25]

Syrian Prime Minister, Khalid al-Azm, wrote in his 1973 memoirs:

    Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees [...] while it is we who made them leave. [...] We brought disaster upon [...] Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave. [...] We have rendered them dispossessed. [...] We have accustomed them to begging. [...] We have participated in lowering their moral and social level. [...] Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon [...] men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes.

Jordan is the only Arab country which uniformly gave citizenship rights to Palestinian refugees present on its soil. Other countries, especially Lebanon, gave citizenship to a fraction of the refugees.[citation needed] However, there remain a huge number of refugees living in camps in Jordan, and in fact it has the largest such population with over one million Palestinian refugees.[26]"

Now you can take Wikipedia or leave it.  But there seem to be two points: 1) an unresolvable political situation between the Arab parties (including Palestinians) and 2) a historical refusal by the Arab States (Jordan excepted) to help defuse the Gaza population time-bomb.  The average woman in Gaza gives birth to five children in the one of the most densely populated areas in the world.  

I don't mean to absolve Israel of its complicity in this horrific situation, but this situation is much more complex than a simple Arab/Jew dichotomy.
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J_Moondog

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #85 on: January 13, 2009, 03:26:39 AM »

I agree with your final statement but I am fairly skeptical about the rest.  According to your own evidence, the Arab League (whether you agree with their position or not) is not accepting Palestinian refugees not because they don't care about their cause but because they do not wish for them to be dispossessed from their land by Israel.  The evidence that you give does not show that "The Arab states have never been big fans of the Palestinians' cause" - this is your interpretation and, in my opinion (again, based on your own quotations) quite an incorrect one.  In fact, the strong desire to keep Palestinians in Israel seems to be the driving force behind this decision - and the desire for a peaceful settlement for both Palestinians and Israeli has been shown in practice, with their repeated peace proposals for the region.  So, it seems to me, that the Palestinian plight seems to be an issues that weighs fairly heavily for the Arab states.
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J_Moondog

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #86 on: January 13, 2009, 03:43:30 AM »

Quote from: 568
By the way J_Moondog, thank you for engaging me and educating me about this.

Just saw this and would like to say that the feeling is mutual.

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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #87 on: January 13, 2009, 04:45:06 AM »

An essay describing the Isreali point of view, which sounds quite reasonable. I'd be surprised if there weren't similar articles out there from the Palestinian point of view.

But still, in my mind, the point is that both sides can make reasonable claims to a moral high ground. Focusing on past grievances is almost guaranteed to ensure failure of any process that might bring true lasting peace.

**************************************************************************************************

New York Times on line http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/world/middleeast/13israel.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
January 13, 2009
Israelis United on War as Censure Rises Abroad
By ETHAN BRONNER

JERUSALEM
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Alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #88 on: January 13, 2009, 01:21:34 PM »

Quote from: 1832

Just saw this and would like to say that the feeling is mutual.


Thank you for keeping this discussion respectful from both sides.  :)
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adamzero

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2009, 02:46:33 AM »

Interesting thoughts from Mickey Rourke (aka Randy "The Ram" Robinson).

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/79536/Rourke-Bush-was-in-the-wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time

I'd like to add to the conversation and all involved that I appreciate the tenor of the dialog.  I am by no means a one-sided supporter of Israel and more than the Palestinians.  A simple solution would be to return the 1967 borders--but with Islamic groups and state-sponsored Iranian terrorism involved (and Israel's current hardline position of "enough is enough")--I don't think that will be achieved any time soon.  You can definitely see Israel's unwillingness to give up the Golan Heights if they're getting missiles lobbed at them from the lowland Gaza.  

You can blame so many empires and states for the current mess--going back millenia. But I'd say that the British and French division of the Middle East protectorates after WWI (and Israeli terrorism between the wars) did as much as anything to engender the present situation and dispossess the Palestinians.  (The same "partition" mentality also produced "Iraq"--another state built with internal divisions.)   Also, I believe that the implosion of the Pan-Arab movement left the Palestinians out in the cold (without much of a place at the bargaining table--unlike larger Arab States.


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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2009, 08:04:26 PM »

So it's a UN shelter blown up today....unbelievable. Is America waiting for Obama to get in the ring? I don't get it.
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blackmath

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2009, 08:34:45 AM »

They bomb hospitals.
Schools.
Even kindergartens.
"Protecting ourselves" MY A**.

I can't even call those soldiers humans. They're not even animals. God didn't give animals the ability to choose or think. But wait, do they have those?
UGH.
The worst thing is not being able to do anything.
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Kevin

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2009, 11:29:00 AM »

Quote from: 706
They bomb hospitals.
Schools.
Even kindergartens.
"Protecting ourselves" MY A**.

I can't even call those soldiers humans. They're not even animals. God didn't give animals the ability to choose or think. But wait, do they have those?
UGH.
The worst thing is not being able to do anything.

Exactly what the US/UK are accused of doing. (remember us taking out the Chinese embassy in Serbia, or the hotel full of journalists in Iraq. God knows how many wedding parties). People die in war, and in the fog of conflict men under extreme stress make mistakes. To single out the Israelis is ridiculous. It is the nature of war. How many tens of thousands of German and Japanese children were deliberately slaughtered by the "good guys" in WW2 by bombing.
And how about all the allegations of Turkish atrocities against the Armenians and Kurds?  Animals still??? No country that engages in war is innocent.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2009, 11:42:04 AM »

Yes Kevin but bombing the UN...surely in Geneva convention talk UN is 'sanctuary?'  

Maybe I'm a bit idealistic but if the UN cannot intervene when there is high civilian death tolls because countries with agenda's are vetoing peace, then we may aswell press the big red button. Wasn't UN formed after the war to help prevent civilian attrocities such as these? It's no wonder Iran want to build some sort of nuclear defence with that kind of madness going on in the region.
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blackmath

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2009, 12:29:06 PM »

Quote from: 185
Exactly what the US/UK are accused of doing. (remember us taking out the Chinese embassy in Serbia, or the hotel full of journalists in Iraq. God knows how many wedding parties). People die in war, and in the fog of conflict men under extreme stress make mistakes. To single out the Israelis is ridiculous. It is the nature of war. How many tens of thousands of German and Japanese children were deliberately slaughtered by the "good guys" in WW2 by bombing.
And how about all the allegations of Turkish atrocities against the Armenians and Kurds?  Animals still??? No country that engages in war is innocent.


Excuse me about talking about a "CURRENT affair". I'm talking about what is happening now, we see it everyday on TV, on internet and in newspaper. I just can't close my eyes to this, and I don't want to.
IT'S NOT A WAR. It's genocide.
Bombs vs stones.

WW2 is the past. My mom wasn't born back then. It's weird comparing these.
Armenians: Turkish people deny that. I don't know if it's true or not and seriously, I DON'T CARE. It's the past and I've got more important things to do.
Just because I'm Turkish doesn't mean I'm responsible for what they did or didn't. And yes animals still. I'm not racist. If Turkish people killed innocent people for pleasure [AGAIN: Stones vs bombs] yes, they were. Kurds: Kurds are living in certain parts of Turkey and I've got Kurd friends. Normal people don't care about anyone's race. BTW it's really easy to talk about what you know nothing about. Do you know what PKK is? Please do a research.
GEEZ.
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DaveRam

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2009, 02:37:58 PM »

It's past events that have turned Israel into this killing machine , WW2 seems to have changed there psyche and it's looking like they will fight anyway and at what ever cost to defend themselves as they see it .
And while they have the arms to wage war , i can't see there will be peace in the region .
I hope Obama can bring about a two state solution , but it's looking further off to me , maybe a few war crime inditements will curb Isreal's killing zeal , i don't think they should be above the law ?
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Geoff

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2009, 04:44:44 PM »

Quote from: 971
I hope Obama can bring about a two state solution

I don't see how you can have peace over there until both sides are seriously committed to reaching some sort of accommodation and have leaderships in place that are capable of and determined to carry out (ie enforce) the terms of a peace settlement. We're a long way from that and what we're seeing now is just the latest flare up in a war that's being going on for decades and which could easily continue for decades more.
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2009, 04:45:58 AM »

Quote from: 15
Yes Kevin but bombing the UN...surely in Geneva convention talk UN is 'sanctuary?'  

Maybe I'm a bit idealistic but if the UN cannot intervene when there is high civilian death tolls because countries with agenda's are vetoing peace, then we may aswell press the big red button. Wasn't UN formed after the war to help prevent civilian attrocities such as these? It's no wonder Iran want to build some sort of nuclear defence with that kind of madness going on in the region.

This (bombing of the UN) was unavoidable, and entirely predictable.

1) Rockets launched by Hamas from civilian areas into Israeli civilian areas.
2) Israel bombs these civilian areas to rid themselves of the rockets.
3) UN building in civilian area.
4) Error in bomb targeting by Israelis, UN building hit.

Sad that it happened? Yes, very. Surprised? Not in the least. This will continue until people move their war activities out of the civilian areas.

 :B
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2009, 04:48:50 AM »

Quote from: 706

Excuse me about talking about a "CURRENT affair". I'm talking about what is happening now, we see it everyday on TV, on internet and in newspaper. I just can't close my eyes to this, and I don't want to.
IT'S NOT A WAR. It's genocide.
Bombs vs stones.

WW2 is the past. My mom wasn't born back then. It's weird comparing these.
Armenians: Turkish people deny that. I don't know if it's true or not and seriously, I DON'T CARE. It's the past and I've got more important things to do.
Just because I'm Turkish doesn't mean I'm responsible for what they did or didn't. And yes animals still. I'm not racist. If Turkish people killed innocent people for pleasure [AGAIN: Stones vs bombs] yes, they were. Kurds: Kurds are living in certain parts of Turkey and I've got Kurd friends. Normal people don't care about anyone's race. BTW it's really easy to talk about what you know nothing about. Do you know what PKK is? Please do a research.
GEEZ.


So, things have to occur in your lifetime, or at least in your mom's, to have relevance?

I think bringing up these historical accounts is important, what's that thing about those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it, or at least to listen to Boy George or something?
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blackmath

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2009, 08:49:23 AM »

I didn't mean to say such thing. What I meant to say was that people died in WW2, yes, but they're dead and gone and even if they didn't die back then they'd probably be dead now. People are dying, right now, innocent people, children, people my age. Of course the past is important. But Hitler killed the jews. Not the Palestinian people. Some people actually are starting to feel sympathy for Hitler because of what Israelis are doing. No, I'm not one of these people but I don't think Hitler was any worse than Israeli soldiers. Both killing the innocent.
I read an interview with a jewish musician and he said they killed his grandmother in WW2 in a cruel way, then he said, how can I support Israel killing Palestinians? That makes sense to me.
I really have no idea why these things need to be said. I mean some things are too obvious.
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