It was very common in the early Sixties for Londob A&R men to use session drummers - on a variety of bands ranging from the Beatles to Procol Harum. When the Beatles sacked Pete, George Martin told Mo Best: "I never suggested that Pete Best must go. All I said was that for the purposes of the Beatles first record I would rather have a session man. I never thought that Brian Epstein would let him go. He seemed to be the most saleable commodity as far as looks went. It was a surprise when I learned they had dropped Pete."
I may well have this wrong, but I think Martin said somewhere that while he thought Pete Best was fine for live dates he wasn't a good enough drummer to record (the Anthology audition take of "Love Me Do" bears him out on this, I think). He probably expected to use session drummers on the recording sessions while Pete would keep playing for The Beatles live, and was surprised when The Beatles turned up to record "Love Me Do" with Ringo. Ringo got his shot on the first recording of "Love Me Do" - that take appeared on the first issues of the single - but was displaced by Andy White's remake on the album and later editions of the single. Ringo and George Martin have been cheerfully giving each other the elbow about it ever since, too, most notably on the Anthology video.
The last two pieces of information are very interesting! I have never heard about that. The general perception is that Pete didn`t fit in, first, for his lack of charisma, and, second, for his rather poor performance. But, remember, the curios thing is that none of the Beatles objected to the dismissal. As if they were happy to get rid of him. As if he hadn`t made close friends with them when in Germany, as if he were simply a burden to them, an alien, a pariah. And they had never communicated with him since. So not much of a loss was he. Why do you think they didn`t protest?
Maybe it was a bad sound system. I hadn't thought of that. It was terribly frustrating, because I've listened to the Beatles a lot, and I just couldn't get what Pete was saying.
I know I certainly got smashed after the show (sat up drinking with some friendly Canadians), but Pete was sober, but very tired, poor man. I know because I was forced to hug him four times for the requisite mug shot, because my flash wouldn't go off.
I remember when you went ... what a fantastic experience, to touch a Beatle, and more than that to talk and hug one!!
You had a beautiful pic or two (later lightened up by a helpful forum mate) you posted back then ... would love to see them again if you wouldn't mind reposting -
Thanks Harihead!
I love John, I love Paul, And George and Ringo, I love them all!
Howie Casey is a Liverpool legend and his bands preceded the Beatles on a number of fronts. Under their original name of Derry and the Seniors they were the first Liverpool group to go to Hamburg and as Howie Casey & the Seniors the first Mersey band to make a record in their own right.
Born 12 July 1937, Howie started playing saxophone because he liked jazz and decided to pursue a career in music by signing with the King’s Regiment, the Liverpool troop, for three years.
“I was in the military band, but of course there were all little offshoots of jazz groups and dance bands and then, of course, rock and roll. That was 1955, so rock and roll was hitting big by that time and I was very keen obviously on listening to the sax players who played with the likes of Little Richard, Fats Domino and Lloyd Price.
“Of course, this was an introduction to R&B really, although it was called rock and roll, and I liked what I heard. I thought I could get closer to that than jazz because the jazz thing, for me, was pretty technical stuff at that time. So I found out I could do some of the rock licks, so we formed a rock group in the army.”
Howie’s father was a TV and radio engineer who repaired speakers and tannoy systems for Charlie McBain, Liverpool’s pioneer promoter. “Charlie Mac ran a few dances round Liverpool and one of them was Wilson Hall,” says Howie.
He was invited to come and play at the hall “no mention of money, of course,” and sat in with a band, “It wasn’t the first band I’d ever played with in Liverpool but it was certainly the best of the bands I’d played with so far. It was a band called the Rhythm Rockers and it was led by a great drummer called Frank Wibberley and he had a line-up of two tenor saxes and of course drums, bass, keyboards, guitar and also I think there was a male and female singer. I played baritone with that band and I really enjoyed it. Some of it was reading, some of it was busking, and they played a mixture of rock and roll and Top 20 stuff.
“So from that point on I played with them for quite a while, usually Saturday nights and that type of thing. I was working in the day, of course.”
Howie then formed a band in Huyton, the area where he lived, and they called themselves the Huytones, with Billy Hughes on guitar and Stan Foster on piano. They were then joined by drummer Jeff Wallington, guitarist Brian Griffiths and Paul Whitehead on bass.
It was while they were appearing at Holyoake Hall, near Penny Lane, that disc jockey Bob Wooler asked if a young black youth could get on stage to sing some songs with them. His name was Derry Wilkie.
“Derry came up and he was doing Little Richard, which was right up my street because prior to that we didn’t have a singer who could get down to that sort of stuff. That was great, so we asked Derry to join the band.”
Like most members of Liverpool bands, Howie dismisses the myth of ‘Cunard Yanks’, who were supposed to bring rare records from America for the local groups. “We got our repertoire from the records we bought in the shops,” he says, “Records that people had, like Derry had quite a good collection of Ray Charles and Little Richard and so on.”
As Derry & the Seniors they began to play at most of the local venues for promoters such as McBain, Wally Hill and Brian Kelly.
Wally Hill ran promotions at Holyoake and Blair Hall, which Howie describes as being “quite violent.”
“I vaguely remember the bouncers who wore black leather sort of gloves and white shirts, black trousers, black leather – and they had truncheons, or whatever. They used to circle the hall while the people danced and there was always a fight and they’d jump in and people would get kicked downstairs and there was blood and stuff everywhere. A few things like that went on.
They were also booked to appear on a major concert at Liverpool Stadium on Tuesday May 3 1960, with Gene Vincent topping the bill. It was an event promoted by London impresario Larry Parnes and local entrepreneur Allan Williams.
“Cass & the Cassanovas and other local groups were on it, we were on it and it was just a one-night thing. We thought it was big time, playing a big gig.”
As a result the Seniors were asked to audition for Larry Parnes at the Wyvern Social Club on May 10, along with Cliff Roberts & the Rockers, Cass & the Cassanovas, Gerry & the Pacemakers and the Silver Beetles.
Howie recalls, “There was Larry Parnes with Billy Fury sitting in this rather shabby club, the Wyvern Club, because, of course, it hadn’t been converted to the Blue Angel and it was still a drinking club at the time. We did our bit and the various other bands did their bit and there was the band, the Silver Beetles. And I’d never seen them before. Young guys, you know, I’m probably five or six years older than them – and they got up and they didn’t have a drummer and they asked Johnny Hutch (Hutchinson) to sit in with them.”
The Seniors were told they would be backing one of Parnes’ artists in the seaside resort of Blackpool. “We were all chuffed and gladly gave up our day jobs. Then, some little time later, we found out that it was all cancelled.”
Having committed themselves, they were furious and went to see Allan Williams.
“Of course, the story is that me with my fists like Yorkshire hams and Derry went in and threw a bouncer to one side and had Allan Williams pinned up against a wall. It’s absolute nonsense. We went down there, irate, upset, but there was none of that. Allan sort of wriggled out of it by saying he’d take the band down to London, to the 2 I’s.
“Days or weeks later, we all piled into two cars and went off to the 2 1’s in Old Compton Street. We spoke to the guy who ran the place, Tom Littlewood and he was quite happy for the band to play for nothing.
“There were no sound checks, nothing like that, you just got on and played. There was a guy on stage before us with a Buddy Hollyish/Shadows type of band (Buddy Brittain). Then we got up with Derry and did our rock and roll ‘Good Golly Miss Molly’, ‘Ain’t That A Shame’, that sort of thing. We got a bit of stale cake off Tom Littlewood for our pains.
“During the time we were on, this German guy, Bruno Koschmider had been in the audience.
“It was a remarkable coincidence. He had a British band playing at his club the Kaiserkeller in Hamburg called the Jets, who he’d first found at the 2 Is. Another club the Top Ten had opened and the group had gone there, so Bruno found himself without a band and just a jukebox in the middle of a big club. He was over looking for a replacement and saw in us a similar thing. We weren’t like the Jets, but they’d had a black singer called Tony with the band, an American guy. Koshmider had been watching all the bands who were at the 2 Is and picked on us as the band he wanted.
“We went across the road to a restaurant and there was a German waiter (Georg Sterner) and he translated for us, telling us that Koshmider wanted the band to go to Germany.
“So how lucky can you get? You drive all the way to London, go into a tiny cellar and end up with a contract to go to Germany. Brilliant.
“Of course, Allan hadn’t arranged any visas. We were thrown off the train on the way there because he told us to say we were tourists. When the police came at the border and we told them we were tourists, they said ‘what’s all this drum kits and amp and all that?’ so we were chucked off the train. I frantically called Hamburg and Koschmider promised that we would get visas and all that. He never did anything about it. We just arrived there and that was that.”
The Beatles arrived and began to perform at the Indra, further up the Grosse Freiheit.
“I saw them at the Indra, ‘cause we went to the opening night because we used to start later and then they’d finish early and come to the Kaiserkeller to see us because we’d be on until 2 or 3 in the morning.
“It was decided that the Kaiserkeller would present continual music, so they split the Seniors into two groups. I was given Stuart Sutcliffe and along with Derry and Stan Foster, we had a German drummer. The others, Griff, Billy Hughes and Jeff Wallington were in the other group.
“We had a great time in Hamburg, it was terrific and when we left the Kaiserkeller we stayed another month. The band sort of fractured when Derry went off and played with a German Dixieland band and another four of us got into a strip club called the Cassanova Bar and we were playing music for the stripper while the American fleet was in.
“The Seniors were then offered a gig in the Top Ten. Since we had no work permits or visas, Peter Eckhorn told us to go to the British Embassy and sort some visas out. As soon as they saw the state of us they looked at our passports and said ‘no.’ They confiscated the passports and repatriated us.
“We ended up broke, back in Liverpool again, which is a damn shame because we could have gone on playing at the Top Ten and probably would have stayed out there for quite a while.”
Ironically, the first gig they got on their return to the ‘Pool was at the Top Ten Club, a new club opened by Allan Williams, with Bob Wooler as the disc jockey.
“It was short-lived because some local gang decided it was going to be their club,” said Howie. “Of course, there was a huge fight, a big bundle. We got involved in the fight because the gang didn’t like the look of Derry. Of course, Derry’s no soft guy and he jumped in and the next thing we were covered in gang members.
“There was only a couple of security guys and they’d been chucked out by the gang, along with most of the audience. Luckily, the police arrived like the US Cavalry in the nick of time, just as we were in the middle of a big brawl.
“We went off, leaving our gear in the club. The next morning my father wakes me and tells me someone has phoned to say that the club had just been burnt down to the ground. All the gear was burnt and that signalled another change in the Seniors line-up. Jeff Wallington had had enough and so had Billy Hughes.”
The new group was called Howie Casey & the Seniors and featured Howie on sax, Derry on vocals, Freddie Fowell as second vocalist, Brian Griffiths on guitar, Frank Bowen on bass and Frank Wibberley on drums.
They became the first Liverpool group to record and cut an entire album for Fontana in an afternoon. Their album ‘Twist At The Top’ was issued in February 1962 at the same time as their debut single ‘Double Twist.’ Two other singles followed, ‘I Ain’t Mad At You’ and ‘Boll Weevil Song.’
They were unsuccessful and the group split up, with Fowell changing his name to Freddie Starr (after Ringo Starr) and leading Freddie Starr & the Midnighters. Frank Bowen joined the All Stars, Derry joined the Pressmen, Wibberley teamed up with the Lee Eddie Five and Brian Griffiths joined the Big Three. Howie became a member of the Dominoes and spent several years on the Continent.
It was when he returned to Britain and settled in London that he began to get session work. “I did a lot of work for a producer called Tony Visconti, for Marc Bolan and people like that.
“He then gave me a call to come and do this album for Paul and it was ‘Band On the Run.’ I re-met Paul after quite a few years. I hadn’t seen him ‘cause he’d become rich and famous and I was working. It was great.
“I played on the tracks ‘Jet’, ‘Band On The Run’, I did the solo on ‘Bluebird’ and the solo on ‘Mrs Vanderbilt’. He liked what I’d done, so a year later I got a call. I’d been on tour with Marc Bolan and all sorts of stuff and I got a call from McCartney’s office to see if I’d be interested in doing a tour with them. Of course, I jumped at it and went off and did that world tour – and I did another few albums, ‘Wings At The Speed Of Sound’ and, of course then there’s the triple album ‘Wings Over America’ which was recorded live; ‘Back To The Egg’, ‘Rockestra’, the Kampuchea concert, we did the Venice thing, then I did a second tour with him later on which was the one which ended up in Japan where he was arrested and then he more or less gave up touring after that so that was when we sort of went our separate ways.”
Over the years, Howie has recorded and appeared with numerous bands, including T-Rex, the Who and Mott The Hoople.
Howie and his wife moved down to Bournemouth, where they still live. “I still play, I’m still on the road and still do the odd recording session,” he says.
Incidentally, Howie’s wife is Sheila, nee McKinley. Together with her sister in the McKinley Sisters, she toured Scotland with the Beatles. She also provided backing vocals, along with Linda McCartney for Ringo Starr’s ‘Stop And Smell The Roses’ on which Howie played sax.
I read that Pete is about to release an album with original material, called Haymans Green.
Yes that's true about Haymans Green.
Scheduled for USA release on 9/16. USA/Canada tour starting 9/12.
I'm not sure how to post up a graphic here, but I have the CD cover art here to share. No matter where you stand on Pete's role in the history, you're gonna love the concept on the cover art.
I may well have this wrong, but I think Martin said somewhere that while he thought Pete Best was fine for live dates he wasn't a good enough drummer to record (the Anthology audition take of "Love Me Do" bears him out on this, I think). He probably expected to use session drummers on the recording sessions while Pete would keep playing for The Beatles live, and was surprised when The Beatles turned up to record "Love Me Do" with Ringo. Ringo got his shot on the first recording of "Love Me Do" - that take appeared on the first issues of the single - but was displaced by Andy White's remake on the album and later editions of the single. Ringo and George Martin have been cheerfully giving each other the elbow about it ever since, too, most notably on the Anthology video.
before jumping to a conclusion about that Anthology Love Me Do track, ya should review the history of that LMD track, and why the rudimentary drumming was laid down that way. It was a raw take of a song in development.
While Cry for a Shadow was on Anthology, as was My Bonnie, Hello Little Girl, Besame mucho, etc... several others great fun tracks, why single out an intentionally raw LoveMeDo as being representative of 1 single musician's ability or alleged lack thereoff ?
heck, ya can probably also listen to other tapes that reflect some off key singing here or there , but it's so funny to see folks point specifically to that LMD track as some kind of solid "proof" of sub-par musicianship. For example, just from Anthology alone, Macca goofs up on the takes for 1 after 909, but that's fine right? yet LMD sounds goofy yes (because it's raw), so that makes PB a a poor musician? Nah... it's just double standards abounding.
It's fun discussions though. It's history, we all move forward and enjoy the music and the colorful times around it.
Get your ipods ready for Haymans Green though. I'm pretty sure most of the DM members know the specific relevance of the 2 words in the Fan istory, but for those that don't , you're going to enjoy what you learn on your voyage of discovery. Go on...look it up. Enjoy.
before jumping to a conclusion about that Anthology Love Me Do track, ya should review the history of that LMD track, and why the rudimentary drumming was laid down that way. It was a raw take of a song in development.
While Cry for a Shadow was on Anthology, as was My Bonnie, Hello Little Girl, Besame mucho, etc... several others great fun tracks, why single out an intentionally raw LoveMeDo as being representative of 1 single musician's ability or alleged lack thereoff ?
It was not just 'Love Me Do'. The Beatles first session at EMI was for 3 hours - from 7pm to 10pm on 6th June. They recorded 4 songs - 'Love Me Do', 'Besame Mucho', 'P.S. I Love You', and 'Ask Me Why'. But they rehearsed a good deal of material in the studio before the actual recording started. In fact, it was on hearing 'Love Me Do' that the recording engineer - Ron Richards, sent for George Martin, who would otherwise not have been there. So George made his decision based on more than just one song.
Btw, 'Love Me Do' was not really in development at that time. It was deliberately written in a Roy Orbison style.
I just want you to reassure him - talk to him, make him see the error of his ways. Then I'll hit him.
Scheduled for USA release on 9/16. USA/Canada tour starting 9/12.
I'm not sure how to post up a graphic here, but I have the CD cover art here to share. No matter where you stand on Pete's role in the history, you're gonna love the concept on the cover art.
before jumping to a conclusion about that Anthology Love Me Do track, ya should review the history of that LMD track, and why the rudimentary drumming was laid down that way. It was a raw take of a song in development.
While Cry for a Shadow was on Anthology, as was My Bonnie, Hello Little Girl, Besame mucho, etc... several others great fun tracks, why single out an intentionally raw LoveMeDo as being representative of 1 single musician's ability or alleged lack thereoff ?
I'll take your point about making too much of the anthology take of "Love Me Do;" as BlueMeanie says, George Martin's decision about wanting to use a session drummer for The Beatles' studio sessions was based on more than that. You also raise an interesting point: Pete switches tempo in the anthology take, and I wonder if that was the way The Beatles played the song live or was it an attempt to re-arrange the song in the studio? If it was the latter, it might explain why Pete had trouble with it and why John and Paul's vocals sound so tentative on a song they must have known well.
I'll take your point about making too much of the anthology take of "Love Me Do;" as BlueMeanie says, George Martin's decision about wanting to use a session drummer for The Beatles' studio sessions was based on more than that. You also raise an interesting point: Pete switches tempo in the anthology take, and I wonder if that was the way The Beatles played the song live or was it an attempt to re-arrange the song in the studio? If it was the latter, it might explain why Pete had trouble with it and why John and Paul's vocals sound so tentative on a song they must have known well.
I think one reason for the tentative vocals is that the vocal arrangement was all of a sudden different from their live/pre-studio one (OT - did this song have a life in the clubs, or was it a pure studio song?) - John was actually the one who sang the hook "... love me do..." prior to the studio rehearsals for their first recording! George Martin, who picked the song mainly for the harmonica riff, decided that John didn't have enough time to sing the line AND then inhale enough to play the harmonica riff properly, so he said ... "Here Paul, you sing that line". So that change, plus the pressures of their first recording, could certainly have resulted in tentative vocals!
*Disclaimer - I can't cite references for this, but I'm pretty sure I've read it in multiple places. Maybe someone can confirm (or not)?
I love John, I love Paul, And George and Ringo, I love them all!
George Martin, who picked the song mainly for the harmonica riff, decided that John didn't have enough time to sing the line AND then inhale enough to play the harmonica riff properly, so he said ... "Here Paul, you sing that line". So that change, plus the pressures of their first recording, could certainly have resulted in tentative vocals!
Yes, I think you're quite right about this: great point. It seems to me that Paul's told this story himself a few times: maybe in the Anthology or his interview in Beatles Recording Sessions?
I'll take your point about making too much of the anthology take of "Love Me Do;" as BlueMeanie says, George Martin's decision about wanting to use a session drummer for The Beatles' studio sessions was based on more than that. You also raise an interesting point: Pete switches tempo in the anthology take, and I wonder if that was the way The Beatles played the song live or was it an attempt to re-arrange the song in the studio? If it was the latter, it might explain why Pete had trouble with it and why John and Paul's vocals sound so tentative on a song they must have known well.
I enjoy this site. Rational point/counterpoint here and there. It's all good.
If LoveMeDo wasn't on Anthology, this discussion probably wouldn't exist, and most casual fans would think.."hey those decca songs sound pretty good...and the Sheridan/Polydor tracks Cry for a Shadow , My Bonnie are as fun and rockin' as anythign else from the time period. Most (except Decca!) would probably say "hey pretty good band...all of them"
That LMD track is incorrectly pointed to by casual fans as being some kind of smoking gun evidence of poor musicianshhip o nthe drummer's part, while the bass player gets a free pass for the shaky vocal. Go figure.
My understanding is they were trying a differnt arrangement and kicking it around. Even heard pete mention that in some interviews. Paul was new on the lovemedo vocal, which is reflected in the shakiness, and also commented in interviews. They both commented on the early take of LMD, but paul gets a pass and pete gets vilified for trying something different mid-take.? Pete was just slapping the rim of the snare for basic time on the first half of the track, as they were trying arrangements. I'd suppose they were trying stuff on an early studio go 'round..and its recorded for posterity. I' dsay raw basic track, while I know other poster above disagreed. That's fine. no problemo.
While I enjoy the discourse and always find i'm learnign different stuff from others, it's really more the myopic fans elsewhere --without ever hearing ANYTHING else--- that point out "listen to LMD on anthology..that PROVES yadda yadda.." All I'm saying is that LMD proves only one thing: that they actually worked on songs before recording final versions for release, which is only logical, practical, heck it might have even been fun also.
PArt of the fun of Anthology was to show the band working on takes, and various timings and versions of songs, yet the rawness of LMD take is singled out. LMD on Anth was a simple early track they were trying some ideas on..just because it was committed to tape doesn't mean that THAT specific take was intended for release and they said "good god we can't release THIS one..it's AWFUL". lol.. And the Anth track certainly doesn't reflect the sum total of any bandmember's total talent, especially if it was also macca's first shot at the "lovemedo" vocal.
Of course, there were other basic tracks not on Anthology when george's guitar work was off, or Ringo's drumming was mediocre..or whatever. By the same token re: Anthology 1, Paul flubbed the bass on "One after 909" a few times..certainly didn't mean he wasn't a capable bass player although 1after909 didn't get released (and reworked) until the Let it Be album. However, legions of fans would likely rush to defend how and rationalize why Paul goofed up the bass lines on 1 after 909 no matter what the story is. It's no big deal..they were kickign it around in the studio..that's where that stuff is supposed to happen anyway.
It's all in the past though...but it's fun to yap about it respectfully. Of note, the recording engineers had commented LMD on the '05 pete best of the beatles dvd, and then again the decca fokls said "guitar groups are on the way out"...so, heck, people made mistakes and judgment arrors back way back. It's sll jus tso much history now..bu fun to chat about.
The most popular band in Liverpool at the time. Certainly all the musicians had chops; it was the live setting that got them noticed. I'll refer back to Cry for Shadow of even My Bonnie, and give a listen to the drumming there. It kicks arse. It's all good fun though...thanks for the thread and the respectful discourse.
Meanwhile, click here http://www.lightyear.com/ see "Music" in the middle of the screen, and click on the black/green album to hear 3 full tracks.
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