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yes I know this. But again, isnt it a minority? (especially the later years).

No, I'd say after the more Lennon went on, the more prone to more light stuff he became. Most of the stuff after 1972 is more laid back.

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Silly Love Songs? I feel using the tag silly* is a great misunderstanding of how well crafted these pop-songs* are.

I don't want to get a rep for not thinking Paul's a genius of pop. I said I would call him the greatest writer of the 20th Century, and that's because of the tunes, the melodies.
I do think he's a better songwriter than John in that regard, if we're talking musically.

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It is a label that will stick with Paul, mainly becasue of his later work which is just terrrible (after the Beatles).

I'm not sure how much you've heard, because most of it is not at all bad. In fact, there's plenty of stuff I believe would have been considered "great" had it been on a Beatles album. Even Somedays (from 1997's FLAMING PIE) would have been a contender for REVOLVER. 

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted August 1, 2004, 1:48pm at here

No, I'd say after the more Lennon went on, the more prone to more light stuff he became. Most of the stuff after 1972 is more laid back.



I don't want to get a rep for not thinking Paul's a genius of pop. I said I would call him the greatest writer of the 20th Century, and that's because of the tunes, the melodies.
I do think he's a better songwriter than John in that regard, if we're talking musically.



I'm not sure how much you've heard, because most of it is not at all bad. In fact, there's plenty of stuff I believe would have been considered "great" had it been on a Beatles album. Even Somedays (from 1997's FLAMING PIE) would have been a contender for REVOLVER. 

- I meant Lennon in the context of the Beatles Career.
His early work which dominated the likes of Hard Days Night etc are all great Pop-songs, but in later years we see him change. (like them all)



- I feel Mccartneys solo efforts are great, when you put it in context, but level of material..or Critical success has been up and down. I just feel Mccartney changed his belief in the music trade, and commercially..reached for the top..even if it meant his works suffering.
Im not a fan of the sound he was generating from the 70's onwards, and when seeing him at Live shows..his singing of the Wings Hits etc is great..but the Beatles songs..he just hasnt got that flare in the voice (which sadly is only natural)

Lennons Light side is emphasised after the Beatles, after he found peace with Yoko and a new life in new York. The birth of his son created a whole new canon of works, which is a real different side of Lennon.

I just Love his Rock N roll stuff.
Beatles live at the BBC - Honey Dont.  (before Ringo takes over) a True lennon Rocker!

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted August 1, 2004, 12:56pm at here

Although I don't much like REVOLUTION 9, I recognize its uniqueness for its time. But Maria, what story do you think it tells?

Revolution 9 tells the tale of a revolution.

Listen for the beginnings, the climax, the denouement ...

Quoted from IndicaWalrus, posted August 1, 2004, 1:00pm at here

Paul lived in london, with the Ashers...Obviously Lennon was into the scene...but Paul had it at his fingertips. His arragments etc are just alot more professionaly achieved. Even Martin explains that Mccartney was ahead* in the so called Music game/Scene.

Like I said, he may have hung out with the cool people (the Ashers & their friends).

But he sure wasn't doing (ie composing, playing) avante garde. That was Lennon.

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Revolution 9 tells the tale of a revolution.

I never noticed that before. To me it's just a bunch of tape loops strung together at random. To John, too, if I remember right...

Quoted from Maria, posted August 1, 2004, 8:17pm at here

Like I said, he may have hung out with the cool people (the Ashers & their friends).

But he sure wasn't doing (ie composing, playing) avante garde. That was Lennon.

How was that Lennon?
Explain?

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How was that Lennon?
Explain?

I know the question was for Maria and I await her answer -- but how can you even ask this? With the TWO VIRGINS album, LIFE WITH THE LIONS, THE WEDDING ALBUM, REVOLUTION 9, John and Yoko's little films they made?

Yes I know this, But Im talking about pre-Solo beatles years...

Around 66, when John was still living out at Weybridge, with the Wife and son.

Ok, So Yoko was Underground in her art, but isnt that all just a pretentious movement, which seen little positive merit, and was basically a rather predictable and superficial cliche Sixties symbol of Youth orientated Lifestyle.

Ok, so John and Yoko made arty films. But again, I doubt they were taking themselves seriously, or maybe at the time yes, but we all Know what Lennon is like. He moves on, and is never happy with who he is at the time.

This is not Avante Garde as being a natural movement of thought, but a forced session which ends its state being totally reversed and ending as a weak and misunderstood form of useless 'modern' art.

Bagism* planting the acorns...Bed-In..all of these attempts at Peace and emphasis have that streak of absurd Lennon Creativity (which i love) all of them slightly surreal yet still humouress, in a world where the suit and tie still dominated the Working world.


the two virgins cover.....almost gives across the sense of an artificial message. The perfect controversial image was an ingenious decision, but again..is this Avante Garde?..is this Revolution in the form of a Record Sleeve?..I feel the answer is no.


It seems like Im having a huge dig at John, which im not. I just feel Lennon gets the representation of being underground beacuse of his later political stance and his love for 'strange' modern artists Yoko.
John is Underground, but Paul has the edge as far as the context for the Avante Garde scene. John was alot more commercial and open in his art dealings, while Paul kept it secret and quiet.
Once the 'Scene' slips into the normal homes, or onto the 9 Oclock News..or for that matter..the new release of Melody maker...has it not changed its status....surely it cant be attributed with the Avante Garde Tag of fashionable echerlongs.

Forget categorizations like "avante garde" -- we'll end up discussing definitions, and that can be sterile.

I think what people generally think of when they say Lennon was "avante garde" or "experimental" or whatever, is that John went out on a limb more often. he was a frontiersman, a pioneer. And we don't have to go to the Unfinished Music series to see this. Look at these pairings:

John's Strawberry Fields, versus Paul's Penny Lane
John's Rain, versus Paul's Paperback Writer
John's Walrus, versus Paul's Hello Goodbye
John's Happiness Is A Warm Gun and Rev9, versus Honey Pie (both wild and vanilla), Rocky Raccoon, Ob La Di, Helter Skelter
John's Tomorrow Never Knows, and She Said She Said, versus Paul's Here There and Everywhere and For No One

Paul can protest all he like these days, but the boundary-pushing came from Lennon (and Harrison in some ways). Paul is undoubtedly a brilliant musician, and I like most of his songs above -- but a frontiersman? No way.

I think Paul might have gotten into the experimental stuff first (like the pepper album, the sleeve design for the White album, magical mystery tour) but he never translated it well to music.  Musically, Lennon was the pioneer.

John even had a sense of humour when it came to the boundaries. I recommend very strongly his first two books, In His Own Write and A Spaniard In the Works. Witty word play abounds.

And think of tracks like You Know My Name, and Mary Jane. I know none of this is avante garde, but it sure was at the bondaries of popular music at the time.

Quoted from Herecomesyoursun, posted August 2, 2004, 6:59am at here

I think Paul might have gotten into the experimental stuff first (like the pepper album, the sleeve design for the White album, magical mystery tour) but he never translated it well to music.  Musically, Lennon was the pioneer.

There's nothing "experimental" about Paul's Pepper music. Anyway, Lennon was into the edge stuff musch earlier (Rain, SFF for example).

The sleeve design for the white album: hmm, is my only comment.

Magical Mystery Tour? As a film, pretty sloppy. Paul likes to talk it up nowadays. But if it wasn't the Beatles, it wouldn't be around today I'll wager!

But I'll agree with your last sentence, of course!

Quoted from Maria, posted August 2, 2004, 6:59am at here

John even had a sense of humour when it came to the boundaries. I recommend very strongly his first two books, In His Own Write and A Spaniard In the Works. Witty word play abounds.

These books are classic.  Took me a little while to adjust to the wordplay but their pretty funny.

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There's nothing "experimental" about Paul's Pepper music.

I didn't say his music, but now that i look at it again, i didn't specify.  I mean the concept of Pepper (yes, the one they didn't follow through with).  As for the White Album, check out the other board in a thread called Rock Art i think.  Someone has written an article there that explains my position.  And as for MMT, the whole zany feel of it is very experimental.  Does it work to it's full effect, not really, but he was trying.  Again, musically Lennon was the pioneer

"The sleeve design for the white album: hmm, is my only comment"


The White-Album Sleeve is a more symbol of meaning than anything, and is one of the greatest Designs ever created.

Lennon's books are generally witty and surreal, but it wasnt anything new, just a new voice to the already exploding sixities comdedy circuit (Peter and Dudley+ Python) etc plus his Lewis Carol inspiration.

Oh, and if we are talking about Lennon was better at explaining through music, I feel this bow of respect should be handed over to George Martin.

Maria made some excellent points just withthe song comparisons...

But IndicaWalrus, instead of us coming up with all the "Lennon" things that make him so much more experimental and avante garde than "play it safe/P.R. Paulie," why don't you please list some of Paul's most risque vices while he was with the group (or even after -- I'll give you till 2004!)