I really dislike every single song on that album.  I've given it a few listens, and the only thing I can say to the likers is WTF? On a website that rates albums, this was the highest scoring one.  Again, Imagine and Double Fantasy IMO would qualify for that, NOT this one.

The songs are so EMPTY and resentful.  We all know Lennon as a pessimist, but does that mean the songs are supposed to sound better because of it? God is VERY repetitive.  Working Class Hero sounds so bland.  It reminds me of that song, whatever the title is, the goes, "One of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you." Those songs just don't have the notes and dynamic variation or beauty to hold my interest.

Most of the songs I've heard sound empty, probably because there's Lennon, a bass, and Ringo playing drums.  I can't stand it! Imagine Album all the way, IMHO. 

Probably - yes!

i agree.you probally are........

"empty"?.....

You've got to understand that the album was recorded because John was involved in Primal Scream Therapy, which helped fim open up and release all his negative feelings. I grant you that you have to be pretty down and depressed to really appreciate the album, but it's a work of genius and very powerful in what it wants to accomplish.

WTF??

he is the guy in the middle

Everyone has their own opinion.....production wise, and lyrically, it's a bleak release, and I could see some people not liking it as much as Imagine....if you want to get to know John, POB is the best, but if you're looking for the closest thing to a Beatles album, then Imagine is definitely it.

I don't get why everyone thinks it's great.  It just sounds like a guy who's pissed that's TRYING to make songs out of it.  All the songs I've heard on it are so primitive and boring.  Nothing Strawberry Fields, Help!, Imagine, or Starting Over quality at all.  Not one good track, either.

Quoted Text

if you want to get to know John, POB is the best, but if you're looking for the closest thing to a Beatles album, then Imagine is definitely it.

I'd agree with this. But that's the problem with a lot of fans - all they want is the Beatles.
Glad John addressed that in the classic, "GOD".

If someone's coming to John fresh, it must indeed sound simple and bleak and not worth playing.  I don't find that hard to buy at all.  In fact Mother has to be one of my least favorite songs ever.

For someone who lived thru that time and felt his resentment and confusion and pain thanks to the breakup (and Yoko probably) then the songs were pregnant with meaning as well as great insight and value.

From a strictly musical standpoint the songs ARE simple, because he was purposely avoiding any Beatlesque production, the same idea for LIB but now he could control it.  And of course the subject matters lent themselves to sparse production.  And so for what it was and what it was supposed to be, it is beautifully realized.

Still, it doesn't make for a real finger-snapping, happy party-mood listening.  Not that it was meant to...he was basically tossing that part of himself aside, denying the moptop facade and putting more of himself into being a real artist than he ever would again. 

Anyway, songs like Look At Me and Love are certainly not depressing and are quite lovely.  God is meant to be repetitive, because it's the words that are important.  But I still like it.  Well Well Well is a great little slice of r & r.

One of John's all time best solo songs, Isolation, is a wonderfully constructed song musically, and tho the lyrics may seem bleak it is still a great piece of work.

So I don't think it can be ALL characterized as bleak or maudlin.  It heavily leans that way, yes.  And I certainly understand someone not finding the greatness in it.  I rarely ever play it myself...just one of those things I quietly appreciate and listen to once every year or two perhaps.  Which makes it just about perfect by the time I listen again.

GREAT post, Mr. Charlie.

I rarely play the album these days myself. But as I've said elsewhere, of all the hundreds of albums I've heard in my life, none has ever grabbed me like this one, the first time I heard it as a growing 16 year old kid, filled with feelings of confusion, depression,  and frustrations. A masterpiece - for what it intends to be; not going by what people expect or want it to be.

I don't see any problems in people disliking POB, everybody has different opinions and tastes, but calling the album 'garbage' is totally crazy

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 21, 2004, 2:59am at here

GREAT post, Mr. Charlie.

I rarely play the album these days myself. But as I've said elsewhere, of all the hundreds of albums I've heard in my life, none has ever grabbed me like this one, the first time I heard it as a growing 16 year old kid, filled with feelings of confusion, depression,  and frustrations. A masterpiece - for what it intends to be; not going by what people expect or want it to be.

Thanks.

Given it's bare and desolate nature someone hearing it out of the blue and expecting the more produced and less openly despressed John might have a visceral and bad reaction to it. 

I don't find that odd or troublesome at all.  There are certainly classic albums that *I* don't get to this day, after years of trying to listen.  It is indeed just a matter of taste.  I myself have declared beloved works to be shite.  Perhaps we all have.  So I don't mind someone feeling it's just crap.  At least fright explained WHY he/she felt the way they did and explained it pretty well I think.

The album itself will stand for itself as what it is.  ALways has, it's us that brings our POV to what we hear.

Quoted from Bruno, posted July 21, 2004, 2:59am at here

I don't see any problems in people disliking POB, everybody has different opinions and tastes, but calling the album 'garbage' is totally crazy

Yeah, I can listen to POB (my favorite solo album btw) and Imagine back to back without really noticing much of a difference.....it's John through and through. I honestly don't see how anyone could dislike a track like "Remember" and also enjoy The Beatles.....that track, for example, is a very well written piece that rivals any of John's other solo tracks....it even holds up well against the Fab Four. So yeah, I'm kind of surprised that anyone would slag it off as garbage.....I think Fright Wolf read all of our acclaim for it and thought he was going to get Abbey Road or something, and then was rather disappointed......if he gives it a few more spins, he might start to enjoy it.....this is John, not the Beatles.

Quoted from Frightwolf, posted July 20, 2004, 9:54pm at here

I really dislike every single song on that album.  I've given it a few listens, and the only thing I can say to the likers is WTF? On a website that rates albums, this was the highest scoring one.  Again, Imagine and Double Fantasy IMO would qualify for that, NOT this one.

The songs are so EMPTY and resentful.  We all know Lennon as a pessimist, but does that mean the songs are supposed to sound better because of it? God is VERY repetitive.  Working Class Hero sounds so bland.  It reminds me of that song, whatever the title is, the goes, "One of these days these boots are gonna walk all over you." Those songs just don't have the notes and dynamic variation or beauty to hold my interest.

Most of the songs I've heard sound empty, probably because there's Lennon, a bass, and Ringo playing drums.  I can't stand it! Imagine Album all the way, IMHO. 

Judging by a couple of things you've said elsewhere (for example, Come Together, Something, Maxwell's Silver Hammer, Octopus' Garden, Oh! Darlin, Here Comes The Sun, The final suite, and the 40 seconds of Her Majesty decimate the rest.  NONE of those are mediocre ), I don't wonder you say WTF to JL/POB. Your tastes are clearly preventing you from seeing what the album is about.

Quoted from Rowdy, posted July 21, 2004, 6:45am at here

I think Fright Wolf read all of our acclaim for it and thought he was going to get Abbey Road or something, and then was rather disappointed......

yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking 

Not just you guys; I even read reviews from a guy that has hundreds of old albums (Rolling Stones, The Who, Yes, Beatles, Lennon, etc.), and he did mention the lack of instrumentation, but I tried listening to many selections, including God.  None of them were very pleasing to the ear.  These selections seem fit for making in a speech rather than singing.  When you listen to an album, yes, you ARE expecting some good songs.  But these don't fit me as much as songs as they do as RANTS, which is the only thing I see them as.

And believe me, for someone who has studied The Beatles for a while and knows more than some adults know (just not many in here on the count of many people who come to Beatles forums are true Beatle Fans), I was underwhelmed and unimpressed, and then got off to hating the album.

Have you heard the whole thing? Or just some tracks? As I said, "Remember" is a pretty accesible track, and as mentioned earlier, not everything on the album is dark......it's basically John confronting everything that surrounds his life.

Who cares if he doesn't like it anyway? Frightwolf has stated over (and over) what he thinks, so I don't really see a point in trying to argue with someone who has his opinion pretty set. I mean, I don't blame you guys or think its crazy not to want to defend this masterpiece, but eventually it just looks like we're the ones trying so hard...to prove what? The album is a landmark in history and one of the most personal and compelling listens I have ever been subjected to. I could care less if no one else but me liked it. As is, it is probably my favorite album ever. That is just how it has changed my life.

Quoted Text

When you listen to an album, yes, you ARE expecting some good songs.  But these don't fit me as much as songs as they do as RANTS, which is the only thing I see them as.

Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. What about 'Look at Me,' or 'Hold On John' or "Love' (to name only three)? You call these "rants"?

Quoted Text

And believe me, for someone who has studied The Beatles for a while and knows more than some adults know

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 22, 2004, 9:08pm at here

This is what I'm talking about, Joe.  You show that adults are just as ignorant as some of the kids, and it's a shame too.  You read one line of that and didn't even finish, so excuse me for being profane, but please shut the f' up.  And no one telling me to calm myself will stop me from saying that again.  They're rants, and that's what I think of them.  God is a mediocre song IMO.  So, all I can say is:

on you.

And since I think you're an impatient prick (once again, tell me to calm myself and I'll call you that again), here's what I said:

"And believe me, for someone who has studied The Beatles for a while and knows more than some adults know (just not many in here on the count of many people who come to Beatles forums are true Beatle Fans), I was underwhelmed and unimpressed, and then got off to hating the album."

So before you flaunt your "superior age" to me, read that first and then shut your mouth.  I said SOME adults, not all, if you know English.  And I said the people that come to Beatles forums, like THIS one, meaning I'm not claiming ANY superiority to anyone here.  I do, however, know enough about the Beatles to judge this album in comparison to many other of Lennon's works.

First of all, I DID read "your entire response," and I took the time to soak it in first. Just because I only chose to highlight only the opening line does not mean otherwise.

I'm not going to stoop to your level and call you a "prick", 'Frightwolf' --- and while I'm not going to "flaunt my superior age," I will say I'm damn proud of being born in 1962 and I thank God I'm not any younger in 2004 than I am now (in fact, I wouldn't even mind being 10 years older today -- means I've had even more better and classic times under my belt!   ).

I love how you ignore everything people try to suggest to you about this album -- personal experiences and how it touched them; the primal Scream Therapy John went through to create it; the fact that I pretty much flattened your theory of the songs being "rants" when you chose to ignore the songs i mentioned to counteract that funny claim (Look At Me, Hold On John, Love). You just gloss right over every point peope try to make, and don't even ATTEMPT to think about it. You're mind's made up, and that's that.

And as such -- I have to disagree with you. I don't think you know as much about John or his work as you imagine you do if you can't appreciate one of his greatest accomplishments . 

It can touch people in all the ways in the world, but that doesn't mean it'll be pleasing to the ear.  Whatever happened to listening to music (like classical music) and just wanting to hear something NICE?

Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral, for example.  It can be about love all it wants, but if it's bland with no dynamic contrast or power or intonation, it'll sound like garbage.  It, however, is a spectacular piece of music of epic proportions and DOES get the idealistic love message across.

JLPOB just doesn't do that good of a job at what it does, not to mention that the God song doesn't surprise me.  It seems like a normal pessimistic tune that he would write, stating the obvious to boot, and something that I could not listen to in the car or at home. 

I, of course, will continue to listen to some of these tunes again just to find out what the hell are you talking about, but as it stands, the album is garbage.

Yeah, 444 ------

How about addressing some key points that some of us have made? Start being "adult" and opening your mind. Look at the things we've suggested, see it in the proper light. If you still don't "get it," at least you've tried with some understanding.

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 22, 2004, 11:31pm at here

Yeah, 444 ------

How about addressing some key points that some of us have made? Start being "adult" and opening your mind. Look at the things we've suggested, see it in the proper light. If you still don't "get it," at least you've tried with some understanding.

I put 444 because I was thinking of how to phrase it, and then pressed Send by mistake 


And YES, I do type random buttons when I'm thinking, especially via IM.

You also shouldn't be talking about being more "adult" when you behaved more impatient than a child in this thread: "Hey, I read three of the words in Frightwolf's post, so now I'll just make a face! I AM CLEVER!!!1111"

Quoted Text

It can touch people in all the ways in the world, but that doesn't mean it'll be pleasing to the ear.  Whatever happened to listening to music (like classical music) and just wanting to hear something NICE?

Maybe then you HAVEN'T heard the three songs I've mentioned? They're "nice" enough.
But the whole point of POB is that John wanted to discover himself and completely shatter the "nicey-nice beatles image" anyway. It's not really supposed to be that nice. I'd suggest you read his 1970 ROLLING STONE interview (available in a book as LENNON REMEMBERS) and hear John talk about the album (he thought it was the best thing he'd ever done).

Quoted Text

JLPOB just doesn't do that good of a job at what it does, not to mention that the God song doesn't surprise me.  It seems like a normal pessimistic tune that he would write, stating the obvious to boot, and something that I could not listen to in the car or at home. 

Naturally you're entitled to your opinion, but GOD is still pretty universally hailed as one of John's finest works. I don't think it's very "obvious" when John says he "doesn't believe in Beatles". That was a hell of a shock - especially then.

Quoted Text

I, of course, will continue to listen to some of these tunes again just to find out what the hell are you talking about, but as it stands, the album is garbage.

The word "Garbage" is what spawned a lot of my attitude, you might like to know. Whether you like the record or not, that word isn't even a possibility.

Quoted Text

You also shouldn't be talking about being more "adult" when you behaved more impatient than a child in this thread: "Hey, I read three of the words in Frightwolf's post, so now I'll just make a  face! I AM CLEVER!!!

I made the face because I think your view of this album is hilariously off.

Also, I think YOU failed to read all of MY post previously where I just explained how I DID, in fact, read all of your writing before I laughed. It's just that I chose to highlight the one line when I responded. 

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 22, 2004, 11:41pm at here

Maybe then you HAVEN'T heard the three songs I've mentioned? They're "nice" enough.
But the whole point of POB is that John wanted to discover himself and completely shatter the "nicey-nice beatles image" anyway. It's not really supposed to be that nice. I'd suggest you read his 1970 ROLLING STONE interview (available in a book as LENNON REMEMBERS) and hear John talk about the album (he thought hit was the best thing he'd ever done).



Naturally you're entitled to your opinion, but GOD is still pretty universally hailed as one of John's finest works. I don't think it's very "obvious" when John says he "doesn't believe in Beatles". That was a hell of a shock - especially then.



The word "Garbage" is what spawned a lot of my attitude, you might like to know. Whether you like the record or not, that word isn't even a possibility.

After Help!, it's not really a shock that he didn't believe in the Beatles.  He was always angry at Paul (said that Paul didn't want Harrison to have so many songs on the White Album because he wanted more Paul songs, said he'd like Something and Come Together to listen to on one album and the rest somewhere else so he wouldn't have to listen to it), so obviously he realized that this was getting to Paul's head, especially with that note he wrote to Linda and Paul.  Add in the aforementioned Help!, and it's no surprise.

Despite the fact that we are almost forced to be politically correct, no one said this country isn't free anymore.  Thus I'll call anything I want garbage.

And because the songs aren't "nice enough", I really don't think they're pleasing to the ear.  And even though I'll listen to those songs you mentioned when I get the opportunity, THREE SONGS DOESN'T SAVE AN ALBUM.

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 22, 2004, 11:43pm at here

I made the face because I think your view of this album is hilariously off.

Also, I think YOU failed to read all of MY post previously where I just explained how I DID, in fact, read all of your writing before I laughed. It's just that I chose to highlight the one line when I responded. 

You made that face in response to my "I know more than some adults" comment.  The minute you start laughing at age and patronize, you mess with the bull and will get the horns and WILL be called an ignorant prick.  You're a horrible liar.

And anyone can easily reread a post after someone is accused of being trigger-happy and jumping into a conversation after reading one line of a post.  That's what I think you probably did, and there ain't anyway you'll be proving otherwise.  I can make the same kinda faces, too.

And the album is still garbage.

I'd like to thank Frightwolf for giving so many of us a laugh!

Pal, you can call it garbage - but that doesn't make it so.

I'd go back and read what Joe has written: he does know what he's talking about.

Quoted from Maria, posted July 22, 2004, 11:53pm at here

I'd like to thank Frightwolf for giving so many of us a laugh!

Pal, you can call it garbage - but that doesn't make it so.

I'd go back and read what Joe has written: he does know what he's talking about.

I'd like to thank you for being so honest, yet just as idiotic. 

Pal, you can call it great - but that doesn't make it so.  Don't be sardonic with me.

Whats wtf?

Thanks, Maria

As for Political Correctness, you don't even WANT to go there with me, believe me, Frightwolf! I am the greatest hater of PC you'll ever meet, and I think it's ruining our country. So I certainly wasn't challenging your right to use the word "garbage" - but rather saying it just doesn't fit the album. And we all think you're quite entertaining

I think your thread is "garbage". 

The Wolfs barking and I love it! If Fright doesnt like the album,,,,,so be it. Different tastes for different people. BUT,,,,I will have to say that some ridicule had to be expected when you throw the term 'garbage' around one of the higher respected albums of Johns.

Anyways, this is one of those threads that can be enjoyed from the sidelines. I love a good debate especially when it doesnt envolve me. 

Quoted from Frightwolf, posted July 22, 2004, 11:57pm at here

I'd like to thank you for being so honest, yet just as idiotic.  

Pal, you can call it great - but that doesn't make it so.  Don't be sardonic with me.

Just as idiotic as ... who or what? You're becoming incoherent.

Sardonic?! Look it up, and then you'll realize that you were being very sardonic from your first post in this thread! I love people who live in glass houses, and who throw stones!

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted July 22, 2004, 11:59pm at here

Thanks, Maria

As for Political Correctness, you don't even WANT to go there with me, believe me, Frightwolf! I am the greatest hater of PC you'll ever meet, and I think it's ruining our country. So I certainly wasn't challenging your right to use the word "garbage" - but rather saying it just doesn't fit the album. And we all think you're quite entertaining

I think your thread is "garbage". 

Oh, I'll go there.  I really don't give a mess.  Though you're explanation of why you said that is understood and taken, I'll get into all the political correctness I want.

And your last comment made me chuckle.  You're opinion is "garbage".  Wow, I'm clever now, eh?