I'd like to hear what people have against Yoko, I mean REALLY. Because she supposedly broke up The Beatles? While it's true that John mostly lost interest in the band when he hooked up with her, the Beatles themselves have always said it was a whole bunch of factors, not just Yoko, Linda, or whomever.

Because she's Japanese? Because she didn't have the cheeriest of smiles? I think people bash Yoko Ono because they think it's what they're supposed to do. They don't even know why they do it -- they think it just goes with the territory or something.

Keep in mind that she was just what John always wanted and needed his entire life and she made him incredibly happy. I don't believe a person can respect John Lennon and mock his knowing what woman he needed at the same time.

So, what exactly do you hate about Yoko? Because she allegedly exploits John?
I've heard this one too, and I think it's untrue -- she has very sparingly released his extra solo work over the years, and it's always been in a complimentary form and NEVER in a way that was unflattering to his memory. Not anywhere near the absurd level that Elvis Presley's estate recycles his ghost, for example.  In fact, there are still tons of audio and video things in the vaults that could embarrass Lennon far more, had she put them out for just a buck.. but she hasn't. Even MILK & HONEY took over 3 years to be issued after his death; she didn't rush it out.

Is it her "screaming" music? Well, you may be surprised to learn that very little of it is actual screaming or noise-making. But that's what people enjoy believing to poke fun.

Anyway -- what are your reasons? I'm all ears (or eyes) 

I realize that John needs to take alot of the blame too, but here goes. A decent person wouldnt have been caught in another persons wives bed with their husband (i'm sure Julian was impressed). A decent person wouldnt have let the tension continue to build with her man and friends/coworkers as she loitered around the studio (she easily could have said, "You know John, I think i'm going to step out for awhile so that you lads can get some work done."). A decent person wouldnt have let a wedge come between her feelings for her son and stepson. Finally, besides her ugliness, my final reason is that a decent person would not allow the public to be subjected to the crap that she sang on stage and on the albums that was being passed off as art/music. There!

AMEN!!!!!!!!! I would only like to add if anyone doubts how Yoko is, read Fred Seamans book "Last days of Lennon" a chilling account of Johns last few years and how she controlled and scared john into what she wanted, and how she used his love for her against him. After you read this you will wonder if this is the same John Lennon that formed the most prolific rock group of all time

I don't know enough about her to say. John seemed happy enough tho. Who knows really.  But really, why was the first post so confrontational? Opinions weren't even given yet and it's already implied that any reason given is going to be ridiculous.

Quoted from Fab4, posted August 2, 2004, 2:59am at here

I don't know enough about her to say. John seemed happy enough tho. Who knows really.  But really, why was the first post so confrontational? Opinions weren't even given yet and it's already implied that any reason given is going to be ridiculous.

Exactely! Thats why I had to take a turn.

I have no ill feelings towards Yoko. John loved her & as far as I know she loved him and for me that's all that should matter.

I think shes been good to John Lennon/Beatles fans since his death. I mean the Lost Lennon Tape Series- 4 cd Anthology set. Newly remastered albums. and being involved in getting Paul, George, and Ringo together.

The one thing I dont understand is why see messed up the videos on Lennon Legend. She remade such videos like Mother and WGYTTN plus Power To The People to the point where nobody would know it was a John Lennon video perhaps im the only one who sees this?

Quoted from RICKENBACKER325, posted August 2, 2004, 2:39am at here

AMEN!!!!!!!!! I would only like to add if anyone doubts how Yoko is, read Fred Seamans book "Last days of Lennon" a chilling account of Johns last few years and how she controlled and scared john into what she wanted, and how she used his love for her against him. After you read this you will wonder if this is the same John Lennon that formed the most prolific rock group of all time

That's because it's all a huge steaming pile of shite.  Fred is a liar and a thief.  I'd recommend reading some better Beatle literature.  He is entirely untrustworthy.

I disliked her when she arrived on the Beatle scene, I liked her when I met her, I think she has an ego that is huge and cannot relate to any other person but herself. 

John loved her and so it really was his business, not mine.  Except for a very few songs I cannot take her 'music' either, and yes, Joe, especially in the 60's and 70's her 'music' consisted of mainly wailing and screeching, usually over some very good music beds.  Nowadays she takes a stab at singing, and she's alright. 

I doubt people hated her because of her race, and the 'Yoko broke up the Beatles' myth has long been proven false. 

So really, it's just the godawful recorded legacy she's left, and her inability to really seem to care about anyone.

I've got nothing against her as a person.  As a musician, well my ears have something against her but to each their own.  I saw her once and she was very friendly, said hello and all that.  It certainly wasn't enough to judge a person by so I won't try.  What I do wonder about sometimes is whether Yoko sometimes ventures onto the internet and reads some of the horrible things about her.  All the things she's endured in her life would be enough to drive anyone to a point past cranky, so I think we should cut her some slack.  As for those who say she was manipulative and uncaring, well like I said I don't personally know about that.  John seemed happy though, and our grudges against the woman of his dreams hardly seem relevant.

Ya know Mr. Charlie thats thing about opinions. They are like assholes, everyones got one, and I "Respectfully" disagree with yours. Whether Seaman was a theif is Anyones guess, it all comes down to his word vs. hers. None of us were there! I happen to believe a large portion, if not all of this book was true. Too mant things fit into time and place and coraborate with others stories, not to mention how hard Yoko fought to keep the book from being published and fought just as hard to have it pulled from the shelves afterwards. Anyway MY OPINION IS THAT YOKO WAS A MONEY GRUBBING LEACH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN LAUGHED INTO OBLIVION HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR LENNON. He was the only person that took her seriously Anyway, that is John and maybe You? Look lets not turn this into a "pissing match". The question was what we thought of Yoko, NOT what You thought of My opinion and Not what I thought Of Yours "SHITE" or NOT!

Dont hate her as a person. But She did brake up the greatest band ever. John was happy though.

Quoted from RICKENBACKER325, posted August 2, 2004, 4:31am at here

Ya know Mr. Charlie thats thing about opinions. They are like assholes, everyones got one, and I "Respectfully" disagree with yours. Whether Seaman was a theif is Anyones guess, it all comes down to his word vs. hers.

Opinions are one thing, facts are another.  He admitted in court to stealing tons of things from the Lennon-Ono apartment, and he admitted to badmouthing Yoko publickly and falsely.  He is enjoined by a COURT ORDER to NOT get involved in ANY Beatle discussions.  I have argued with this man personally online over the space of a few years and I can tell you from my own experience the man is a total prick.  A *convicted* thief, a liar, and an all around a**hole.

He stole and lied about one of my heroes, he was a jerk to me and others who criticized him.  This in a VERY informed opinion I offer, along with the FACTS.

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None of us were there! I happen to believe a large portion, if not all of this book was true.

Of course you do, and that is your right.  But there are those who choose to believe known lies because it conforms to what they think happened, or because it makes them feel like part of being an 'insider'.  I'm sure you are not like this, you just read it and it made sense to to you. 

Of course, -some- of it is true.  Like burying gold nuggets in a giant turd.  But as Fred admitted in court he lied extensively in the book (all for money mind you), so it makes it extremely difficult to know just WHAT is truth and what is fiction.  Hence the problem with his book.  Unreliability.

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Too mant things fit into time and place and coraborate with others stories, not to mention how hard Yoko fought to keep the book from being published and fought just as hard to have it pulled from the shelves afterwards.

And won btw. In a court of law. 

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Anyway MY OPINION IS THAT YOKO WAS A MONEY GRUBBING LEACH THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN LAUGHED INTO OBLIVION HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR LENNON.

Not exactly radical thinking, but that is the going concept so I am not surprised.

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He was the only person that took her seriously Anyway, that is John and maybe You?

She's alright.  Can't take much of her 'art'.  I think she's calculating and cold.  But then John didn't much care what I thought.

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Look lets not turn this into a "pissing match". The question was what we thought of Yoko, NOT what You thought of My opinion and Not what I thought Of Yours "SHITE" or NOT!

My shite comment was reserved for the book, not your opinion.  It was not meant to be personal.

The book is unreliable and pretty ugly, written by a convicted theif and liar.  What more is there to say?  I understand your disappointment at recommending a book just to have someone pee on your parade, but I cannot let people think this book is anything but trash tabloid money grubbing, for that's exactly what it is.  Sorry.

Quoted from number14, posted August 2, 2004, 4:38am at here

Dont hate her as a person. But She did brake up the greatest band ever. John was happy though.

No, she did not break up the Beatles.

She was one factor of many that led to the breakup, but it was JOHN who brought her into the studio and forced her on his mates.  He wanted to force a confrontation and he did.

Yes, she SHOULD have found a way to gracefully exit, and she should NEVER have offered musical advice to the boys.  She clearly was without a clue.

The group was splitting internally from all four corners and she was but a symptom.

Lets all relax here and read a book with all of the facts-

No less a judge than John Lennon said of DON'T WORRY KYOKO that it was the "best fucking rock-n-roll record ever made".

That makes Yoko a genius, yes?

Um, have I reasoned that through properly?

Quoted from tkitna, posted August 2, 2004, 7:01am at here

Lets all relax here and read a book with all of the facts-

Oh thats great summer reading there.  It'll cheer you right up, and there's none of those lies like the other book had.  This one clearly isn't sensationalist in the hope of attracting the dollar

Quoted from Herecomesyoursun, posted August 2, 2004, 7:10am at here

Oh thats great summer reading there.  It'll cheer you right up, and there's none of those lies like the other book had.  This one clearly isn't sensationalist in the hope of attracting the dollar

Very good, informative book but there are a few disturbing writings and at the time this book had a bit of a slating for sensationalising. Especially John's possible likes of thai boys and some 'further' relationships with Brian. I still found it very good though. Read with an open mind!

OK, I must be wrong about the book, maybe if you had offered those facts instead of the comments to start with it would not have seemed personal. Dont misunderstand me, I, in NO way like to think I'm a"insider" I'm just a fan of the Beatles nothing more. I also could care less About Fred Seaman, Dont know him, dont want to know to him. Mr. Charlie your were right ,The book made sense but not because of what i thought, but beacuse it fits with other biographers and what some others that knew John were saying. So i still say she rode the "Lennon horse" for advancement of her own "musical" and "artistic" (and I use those two words VERY loosely) escapades. I feel that if it had not been John, it would have been some other person of noteriety, wealth, and influence that was not sure they knew what they were looking for, That she would have latched onto to futher her agenda. This was the point i really wanted to make and probably should not have mentioned the book. If nothing else maybe its good fiction. Truce Mr. Charlie?

Quoted from tkitna, posted August 2, 2004, 7:01am at here

Lets all relax here and read a book with all of the facts-

LOFL!!!

Quoted from Maria, posted August 2, 2004, 7:07am at here

No less a judge than John Lennon said of DON'T WORRY KYOKO that it was the "best fucking rock-n-roll record ever made".

That makes Yoko a genius, yes?

No.  It means John wasn't.

Quoted from An_Apple_Beatle, posted August 2, 2004, 10:44am at here

Very good, informative book but there are a few disturbing writings and at the time this book had a bit of a slating for sensationalising. Especially John's possible likes of thai boys and some 'further' relationships with Brian. I still found it very good though. Read with an open mind!

Please.  This was a far more vile crapfest than Seaman's ever was.  There is so much false information in this book.  It is a hit piece from a disillusioned homosexual.  Goldman is frying in hell somewhere (he pulled the same stunt with Elvis and Lenny Bruce).

Quoted from RICKENBACKER325, posted August 2, 2004, 12:10pm at here

OK, I must be wrong about the book, maybe if you had offered those facts instead of the comments to start with it would not have seemed personal. Dont misunderstand me, I, in NO way like to think I'm a"insider" I'm just a fan of the Beatles nothing more. I also could care less About Fred Seaman, Dont know him, dont want to know to him. Mr. Charlie your were right ,The book made sense but not because of what i thought, but beacuse it fits with other biographers and what some others that knew John were saying. So i still say she rode the "Lennon horse" for advancement of her own "musical" and "artistic" (and I use those two words VERY loosely) escapades. I feel that if it had not been John, it would have been some other person of noteriety, wealth, and influence that was not sure they knew what they were looking for, That she would have latched onto to futher her agenda. This was the point i really wanted to make and probably should not have mentioned the book. If nothing else maybe its good fiction. Truce Mr. Charlie?

Sure. 

A lot of people think that of her and I can't say you're right or wrong.

It's just when someone praises Goldman's/Seaman's/Rosen's books I get a bit blustery.  I really was not directing my blast at you, you simply read a book and believed it.  It's hard to know anymore who is lying and who isn't.

Anyway, no offense meant.  I won't bother you with this subject any more.

Wow, a lot of stuff has come down since I started this thread. I see Charlie has already said a lot of what I wanted to, and I thank him for that (hey, Mr. Charlie - please post the famous Lennon quote where John says "f*** you" to people who think he had "the wool pulled over his eyes". I always put this in the faces of the clueless fans who think John was lead around like a dog by Yoko. I know you've posted it elsewhere, but this is the perfect thread for it!

Fred Seaman was a creep, a thief - and he got arrested for his crimes and always had an axe to grind against Yoko (and John, to a lesser extent). He stole John's diary and other posessions and cannot be trusted. His book is a pile of crap and I wouldn't believe 99% of it, if even that. I have it. I've read it. Seaman's a leech. 

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No less a judge than John Lennon said of DON'T WORRY KYOKO that it was the "best fucking rock-n-roll record ever made".

I'm sure he didn't mean this literally; it was probably his way of saying that he liked the record, and that he was tired of all the bull against Yoko. And you know what? I've come to dig the song over the years myself.

*Another of my favorite and most beautiful Christmas songs is Yoko's "Listen, the snow is falling". *  -- Beautiful, and very poetic.

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I realize that John needs to take alot of the blame too, but here goes.

Blame for what? For being in love? Love is blind, they say...

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But really, why was the first post so confrontational?

Due to 30 some odd years of hearing a lot of bull against Yoko... I've heard it all, since I've been around 42 years and not 15 or 16. So I already know what people generally think about the subject. Also, I've read her bashed in other threads here. That was my inspiration.

In December 1980, everyone started to love Yoko and feel sorry for her when she lost her man. Now it's the same garbage all over again.

Quoted from An_Apple_Beatle, posted August 2, 2004, 10:44am at here

Very good, informative book but there are a few disturbing writings and at the time this book had a bit of a slating for sensationalising. Especially John's possible likes of thai boys and some 'further' relationships with Brian. I still found it very good though. Read with an open mind!

It's pure slander,written by a very strange man looking for revenge. (great SNL skit about this, Goldman was 5th Beatle, got kicked out, 30 years later writes book).  I found it disgusting but maybe I'm just not as "open"

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Except for a very few songs I cannot take her 'music' either, and yes, Joe, especially in the 60's and 70's her 'music' consisted of mainly wailing and screeching, usually over some very good music beds.  Nowadays she takes a stab at singing, and she's alright.

Do you mean "nowadays" as in the 21st Century? Because she's been singing (not amazingly well, but I mean singing and not only screeching) during all the decades of the 60s, 70s, 80s and onward. 

But people tend to focus in on what they want to, I believe. It's like Elvis Presley. Everyone who doesn't know much about The King just automatically conjures up an image of this big fat guy in a jumpsuit with dark glasses who does nothing but eat fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches. It's the image people "want" to latch onto, even though that period of Elvis' life was VERY TINY. But somehow, it makes people feel good to bash him as that fallen image. And they ignore the other 38 or so years of his life.

With Yoko, you don't even have to listen to all her albums or hear her speak or meet her to automatically know how to be with the "in" crowd and what to think of her: "She's a witch, she's evil, she broke up The Beatles, she ruined John and all she ever did was yell on records".  And presto ----- Instant Yoko Know-It All!  (By the way, I don't mean this with regard to you, Charlie, but it wound up being part of this post)

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She was one factor of many that led to the breakup, but it was JOHN who brought her into the studio and forced her on his mates.  He wanted to force a confrontation and he did.

Yes, she SHOULD have found a way to gracefully exit, and she should NEVER have offered musical advice to the boys.  She clearly was without a clue.

As much as I've been defending Yoko here, I won't pretend that I don't agree with most of what you're saying here. I think Yoko should have been more graceful and considerate and said, "Gee, John, I don't really think this is my place..."  But I don't think John wanted to "force a confrontation" in a combative sense.. I believe it was all innocent on his part. He met Yoko, she made him feel alive for the first real time in his life (despite what we or anyone else thinks), and he wanted to share it with the Beatles and have her be a part of everything. Love is blind, and it blinded John. But he always seemed genuinely naive about bringing Yoko into the studio. One of his quotes was: "Being naive in lots of ways, I had no idea I was going to get a shalacking from the immediate family"

About her being "without a clue", I  am sure this is the case, but I'm not 100% positive about it -- after all, John's signature classic, "Imagine," was directly inspired out of a passage in Yoko's book, GRAPEFRUIT. She is also the one who came up with the quote, "Woman is the N igger of the World."

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So i still say she rode the "Lennon horse" for advancement of her own "musical" and "artistic" (and I use those two words VERY loosely) escapades. I feel that if it had not been John, it would have been some other person of noteriety, wealth, and influence that was not sure they knew what they were looking for, That she would have latched onto to futher her agenda

Even as much as I'm defending her, I'm sure Yoko gravitated to John at first for those very reasons. But they fell in love - real love, I believe - beside her incentive. Besides, do you think Linda Eastman would have fallen for Paul had he not been Paul McCartney?
I don't think so for a second. So the same can be said of just about EVERY woman who has ever latched onto a famous celebrity for whatever she thought she could gain -- be it exposure, fame, wealth, whatever. That's the one advantage I feel we have over celebrities... we know that a person loves us for "us". 

I don't really have any strong feelings for Yoko one way or the other. I'm TOTALLY not one of those people who think she broke up the band, but I can't say I'm a big fan of her "art" either. But she made John happy, and that's the important thing right?

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted August 2, 2004, 5:29pm at here

Do you mean "nowadays" as in the 21st Century? Because she's been singing (not amazingly well, but I mean singing and not only screeching) during all the decades of the 60s, 70s, 80s and onward. 

Let's put it this way.  Her screaming performances decades ago effectively shut me off from ever needing to hear her again.

That said, I like her DF songs, and Walking on Thin Ice. 

Quoted from Maria, posted August 2, 2004, 7:07am at here

No less a judge than John Lennon said of DON'T WORRY KYOKO that it was the "best fucking rock-n-roll record ever made".

That makes Yoko a genius, yes?

Um, have I reasoned that through properly?

Just so everyone knows ... I had my tongue in my cheek!!

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Let's put it this way.  Her screaming performances decades ago effectively shut me off from ever needing to hear her again.

That said, I like her DF songs, and Walking on Thin Ice. 

I don't understand. This seems contradictory, so clear it up for me if I don't get you right --.. You say you were turned off by the screaming performances, and therefore felt you never needed to hear her again..... I get that ........ but yet you admit to liking her DOUBLE FANTASY tunes and 'Walking on Thin Ice', when you gave those a chance?  I would think that could mean there might be some hidden songs you might enjoy on some of the older albums, if you gave them a chance. Not that it's required, of course, but just a thought....

Quoted from Joe_Karlosi, posted August 2, 2004, 10:17pm at here

I don't understand. This seems contradictory, so clear it up for me if I don't get you right --.. You say you were turned off by the screaming performances, and therefore felt you never needed to hear her again..... I get that ........ but yet you admit to liking her DOUBLE FANTASY tunes and 'Walking on Thin Ice', when you gave those a chance?  I would think that could mean there might be some hidden songs you might enjoy on some of the older albums, if you gave them a chance. Not that it's required, of course, but just a thought....

I bought DF for John, not Yoko.  She came along with the bargain, and as I had actually bought it for my wife she listened to all the cuts.  And they weren't bad.

And Walking on Thin Ice I heard on the radio and it was the spooky guitar sounds that caught my ear...even before I learned it was John's last recorded bit and it was him playing.  Again, she did alright. 

I suppose there might be something in her back canon I would like, but I simply don't care.  I am not much one for new music anymore, I have all I can handle now.

Joe, I think comparing Paul and Linda to John and Yoko is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Linda came from a lot of money she did'nt need Paul to finance her in anyway. Its true Yoko's family were wealthy but she had  been sort of "cut off" And to sound really superficial, Linda while homely still was not as homely as Yoko. So i think Paul got the better deal all the way around. Paul and Linda more typified a coulpe In love. It was always obvious all the time they loved each other, while John and Yoko in later years kind of left you not so sure about it. Just my opinion though.

[Highjacking:] Each time I read the topic title, I always get the song "Let's talk about sex, baby/Let's talk about you and me..." stuck in my head. And that's very very scary.

*Ahem* Don't mind me, carry on ...

Seek help.

Or seek sex.

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Linda while homely still was not as homely as Yoko.

There comes a certain time when (I hope) a person matures to realizing that "love" and "What's inside" is the most important thing. Usually, the physical attraction follows that. Having said that, I'll also add that "Beauty Is In The Eye of the Beholder".

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So i think Paul got the better deal all the way around. Paul and Linda more typified a coulpe In love. It was always obvious all the time they loved each other, while John and Yoko in later years kind of left you not so sure about it. Just my opinion though.

I'm not of that opinion. I believe John and Yoko were always in love. Also, I think BOTH Paul and John got great "deals" all the way around. They were both very happy with the women they chose, and that was John right up to the second he died. It's actually some of the FANS who aren't approving or happy of either Yoko, Linda, Heather, whomever - and it all means zilch.... because the men were.

Quoted from tkitna, posted August 2, 2004, 7:01am at here

Lets all relax here and read a book with all of the facts-

LOL!

When I was a kid, I saw this book in a bookshop and screwed up a wad of its pages! Naughty petulant youth!!!

Albert Goldman is dead now by the way - let's all write a book about him!!