I remember a long time ago that someone had claimed that Paul was such a workaholic, and he performed in every single song with the exception of one.
I don't know how valid that is (it seems plausible), but for whomever posed that question, Within You Without You featured George and other musicians, but no other Beatles, including Paul.
There were a number of songs that Paul didn't play on -- for instance, just check the White Album, beginning with Good Night and then Julia. By the same token, John wasn't on every track either. A good source for this kind of info is "The Beatles Recording Sessions -- The Official Abbey Road Studio Session Notes, 1962-70," by Mark Lewisohn, with introduction by Paul.
As for She Said, She Said, all four Beatles were present according to the same Lewisohn/McCartney source.
"John brought it into the studio pretty much finished. I'm not sure, but I think it's one of the only Beatles records that I never played on. I think we'd had a barney, or something, and I said, 'Oh, f*** you!' and they said, 'We'll do it.' I think George played bass."
I don't agree.This is a rumour from a mis-reading of Lewisohn. Who do you think plays bass?George Martin?
I didn't remember the bass on that one ... there's a very poor bass part on that one, yep, ... tho the bass appears to be mixed too low ... perhaps because it's a bad part?(if the take was live in studio -as it was usual by that time- that bass performance doesn't seem very Paul-esq ... who knows? Could it be George?
BTW, it's very a simple track (instrumentally) ... as if John didn't want too many sounds there (Sir George on piano and Ringo's rhythm was more than enough) ... no solos or harmonies, so why a bass?
If it had been the first track without all four Beatles, Lewisohn would have said so. But he doesn't. And at this point in their career the bass player was Paul.
If it had been the first track without all four Beatles, Lewisohn would have said so. But he doesn't. And at this point in their career the bass player was Paul.
Mark is not God, certainly.
To my ears there's only an acoustic guitar: where's George Harrison?
Some months later, in an early demo-take 1 of No Reply (Anthology 1) there's a non-defined drummer ... Paul?
Only two years later, in Drive My Car, George played bass guitar (not a bad part to be his first bass performance on record) ... and they were not at their most experimental era.
BTW, George was at percussion in some tracks of 1964 ... roles were not as defined in those years as we might think (they all were very versatile) There were piano and organs, cowbell, timpani, ... well they began to play with instruments (and roles) in 1964.
... well they began to play with instruments (and roles) in 1964.
Yeah, Raxo, but this was recorded in September 1963.
And before it (at the same session) they did I Wanna Be Your Man, Little Child and All I've Got To Do, and after it Don't Bother Me.So you think George and Paul suddenly decided to go for a walk during this song?
And why shouldn't it be Paul on bass if you're saying that George isn't on there?
Incidentally it may well be Paul you can hear shouting in the background at 0:44 - 0:45.
DRIVE MY CAR (Lennon/McCartney) GEORGE 1977: "If Paul had written a song, he'd learn all the parts and then come in the studio and say 'Do this.' He'd never give you the opportunity to come out with something. But on 'Drive My Car' I just played the line, which is really like a lick off 'Respect,' you know, the Otis Redding version. And I played the line on the guitar and Paul laid that with me on the bass. We laid that track down like that. We played the lead part later on top of it."
JOHN 1980: "His (Paul's) song, with contributions from me."
PAUL circa-1994: "This is one of the songs where John and I came nearest to having a dry session. The lyrics I brought in were something to do with golden rings, which are always fatal (to songwriting). 'Rings' is fatal anyway, 'rings' always rhymes with things and I knew it was a bad idea. I came in and I said, 'These aren't good lyrics but it's a good tune.' Well, we tried, and John couldn't think of anything, and we tried, and eventually it was, 'Oh let's leave it, let's get off this one.' 'No, no. We can do it, we can do it.' So we had a break... then we came back to it, and somehow it became 'drive-my-car' instead of 'gol-den-rings,' and then it was wonderful-- because this nice tongue-in-cheek idea came."
According to DM's Beatles site, Paul is playing the bass on Not A Second Time. And who am I to doubt DM?
Yeah, Raxo, but this was recorded in September 1963.
And before it (at the same session) they did I Wanna Be Your Man, Little Child and All I've Got To Do, and after it Don't Bother Me.So you think George and Paul suddenly decided to go for a walk during this song?
And why shouldn't it be Paul on bass if you're saying that George isn't on there?
Incidentally it may well be Paul you can hear shouting in the background at 0:44 - 0:45.
I know when Not A Second Time was recorded ... but can you tell in which one they began to play with their roles and why ... and why could not be this one? because they all were at the session? because Mark didn't tell so? ... ? ... Was Paul the only one who was at the studio in the recording session of Yesterday or Ringo during Goodnight?
After all there are lots of different sources with different data (take a look at my next post) ... who can say define-telly yes or no?
Maybe the arrangement was not decided when they recorded it and there was no place for everybody in that one ... They could have played live and overdubed a bass (a poor one)? Why only a line of backing vocals at the end of the song? It was planned so? Too many question for just a simple song ... that sounds like an early take to me that neededn't more instruments or harmonies or anything, that's all.
And about the shout ... well, there were more people, weren't they?
DRIVE MY CAR (Lennon/McCartney) GEORGE 1977: "If Paul had written a song, he'd learn all the parts and then come in the studio and say 'Do this.' He'd never give you the opportunity to come out with something. But on 'Drive My Car' I just played the line, which is really like a lick off 'Respect,' you know, the Otis Redding version. And I played the line on the guitar and Paul laid that with me on the bass. We laid that track down like that. We played the lead part later on top of it."
JOHN 1980: "His (Paul's) song, with contributions from me."
PAUL circa-1994: "This is one of the songs where John and I came nearest to having a dry session. The lyrics I brought in were something to do with golden rings, which are always fatal (to songwriting). 'Rings' is fatal anyway, 'rings' always rhymes with things and I knew it was a bad idea. I came in and I said, 'These aren't good lyrics but it's a good tune.' Well, we tried, and John couldn't think of anything, and we tried, and eventually it was, 'Oh let's leave it, let's get off this one.' 'No, no. We can do it, we can do it.' So we had a break... then we came back to it, and somehow it became 'drive-my-car' instead of 'gol-den-rings,' and then it was wonderful-- because this nice tongue-in-cheek idea came."
According to DM's Beatles site, Paul is playing the bass on Not A Second Time. And who am I to doubt DM?
Are you sure?! I'm not ... Acording to DM's Beatles site:
Not a Second Time (2:04) Recorded: September 11, 1963 at Abbey Road, London, England John Lennon - double-tracked lead vocal, acoustic guitar Ringo Starr - drums George Martin - piano
No Paul or George ...
---
But after all I DO doubt DM's site:
Without searching too much: there were and still are some mistakes, by the way, ...
But that's not all, you can find the following too ...
She Said She Said (2:37) Recorded: June 21, 1966 at Abbey Road, London, England John Lennon - lead vocal, acoustic guitar Paul McCartney - bass guitar George Harrison - lead guitar Ringo Starr - drums
So Paul played the bass guitar on She Said She Said, after all, and there's no keyboard or backing vocals at all ...
Drive My Car (2:30) Recorded: October 13, 1965 at Abbey Road, London, England John Lennon - lead vocal, tambourine Paul McCartney - lead vocal, bass guitar, piano George Harrison - lead guitar, background vocal Ringo Starr - drums
So Paul didn't play more guitars than bass in Drive My Car ...
"I helped out such alot in all the arrangements. There were alot of tracks though where I played bass. Paul played lead guitar on 'Taxman,' and he played guitar-- a good part-- on 'Drive My Car."
* * * * *
...and in Taxman...
Taxman (2:39) Recorded: April 20, 1966 at Abbey Road, London, England but remade April 21, 1966 with overdubbing on April 22, 1966 and May 16, 1966 John Lennon - tambourine, background vocal Paul McCartney - bass guitar, background vocal, guitar solo George Harrison - double-tracked lead vocal, lead guitar Ringo Starr - drums
So acording to DM's site Paul and George were not on Not A Second Time, (I could agree with this), Paul didn't play more guitars than bass on Drive My Car (George didn't say so), and the bass on Taxman was played by Paul ... .
So ...
- - - - - - - - - -
Anyway, you can find lots of sources in both or even multiple directions ... Only two examples:
Title: Not A Second Time Credits: John Lennon - Paul McCartney Actual writer : John Lennon(100%) Recorded: 11 September, 1963 Producer: George Martin Engineer: Norman Smith Locations: With The Beatles - track 13 Meet The Beatles - track 12
Line- up JOHN Gibson J160E VOCAL PAUL Hofner 500/1 ’61 VOCAL GEORGE Gibson J160E (?) BACKING VOCAL RINGO Ludwig kit OTHERS G.Martin: Piano
Too many guitars and vocals to my ears
Title: Drive My Car Credits: John Lennon - Paul McCartney Actual writer : Paul McCartney (70%) - John Lennon(30%) Recorded: EMI Studios, London, 13 October, 1965 Producers: George Martin Engineer: Norman Smith Locations: Rubber Soul - track 1
Line- up JOHN BACKING VOCAL PAUL Hofner 500/1, Epiphone Casino - Piano VOCAL GEORGE Sonic Blue Fender Stratocaster RINGO Ludwig kit
TWO playing electric guitars (George and Paul) ... this is correct acording to George's statement, but not with DM's site) ... but, where's the tambourine?
Title: Taxman Credits: George Harrison Actual writer : George Harrison (100%) Recorded: 20th-22nd April, 16th May 1966, Abbey Road 2; 21st June Abbey Road 3 Producers: George Martin Engineer: Geoff Emerick Locations: Revolver - track 1
Line- up JOHN Tambourine BACKING VOCAL PAUL Rickenbacker 4001s, Epiphone E230TD Casino BACKING VOCAL GEORGE VOCAL RINGO Ludwig kit, Cowbell
So ... George didn't played any guitar on this track tho it's his own rock song?
Title: She Said She Said Credits: John Lennon - Paul McCartney Actual writer : John Lennon(100%) Recorded: 21st June 1966 Abbey Road 2 Producer: George Martin Engineer: Geoff Emerick Locations: Revolver - track 7
Line- up JOHN Epiphone E230TD Casino , Harmonium VOCAL, HARMONY VOCAL PAUL Paul wanted to change something in the song, and when he was vetoed by the others he walked out of the studio. The poor bass part was played probably by George. GEORGE Epiphone E230TD Casino - Hofner 500/1 (!!) RINGO Ludwig kit, Shaker
Explanation, another guitar, harmonium and harmony vocal, included.
I know when Not A Second Time was recorded ... but can you tell in which one they began to play with their roles and why ... and why could not be this one? because they all were at the session? because Mark didn't tell so? ... ? ... Was Paul the only one who was at the studio in the recording session of Yesterday or Ringo during Goodnight?
Maybe the arrangement was not decided when they recorded it and there was no place for everybody in that one ... They could have played live and overdubed a bass (a poor one)? Why only a line of backing vocals at the end of the song? It was planned so? Too many question for just a simple song ... that sounds like an early take to me that needed more instruments or harmonies or anything, that's all.
And about the shout ... well, there were more people, weren't they?
Come on, Raxo, you're the one who said 64 and now you've decided 63 is the same thing. I just think the onus is on you to prove that Paul isn't on the song.If it was performed live then Paul should be on bass.And I don't think they had much time to mess around at this early stage in their career. The shout sounds like Paul to me and the only other possibility would be John since you say George wasn't there and Ringo was too busy drumming. I'll go with Lewisohn (who heard those early takes) until you come up with something more tangible).
Haha! Raxo has done some pretty though researching already! I'm not sure if Not A Second Time was ever played live. Not even on the BBC sessions (but I'm sure someone will correct me when I'm wrong). The same for Drive My Car I think. At least we can deduct that our sources argue quite a lot on this matter. Maybe Raxo is right by stating that 'the truth is out there'. It sure is. But till the truth has come down, I will go with Lewisohn as well, tho he is certainly not God and has made mistakes too. We're only human after all.
Haha! Raxo has done some pretty though researching already! I'm not sure if Not A Second Time was ever played live. Not even on the BBC sessions (but I'm sure someone will correct me when I'm wrong). The same for Drive My Car I think. At least we can deduct that our sources argue quite a lot on this matter. Maybe Raxo is right by stating that 'the truth is out there'. It sure is. But till the truth has come down, I will go with Lewisohn as well, tho he is certainly not God and has made mistakes too. We're only human after all.
When I said "live" I was thinking "live in the studio" ... but they were already overdubbing by that time...
Come on, Raxo, you're the one who said 64 and now you've decided 63 is the same thing. I just think the onus is on you to prove that Paul isn't on the song.If it was performed live then Paul should be on bass.And I don't think they had much time to mess around at this early stage in their career. The shout sounds like Paul to me and the only other possibility would be John since you say George wasn't there and Ringo was too busy drumming. I'll go with Lewisohn (who heard those early takes) until you come up with something more tangible).
I've never said it was in 64 and I've not decided 63 is the same thing as 64 but there must be a progress somewhere and I'm not talking about any shock thing but one piano, drums and an acoustic guitar! No role changing there. Do you really think that "they hadn't much time to mess around at this early stage in their career" ... sorry but I can't see that in this case.
Why should I prove that Paul was not there? If George was not (tell me where), there should be a correct source that tells us that and that source's info about Paul is that he's not present too.
Imagine that John decides the instrumentation to his song and he wishes to overdub the bass double-tracking his vocal at the same time ... then the performance is not as good as it should be and Sir George undertakes the bass in the mix. Who can tell me this is not an alternate explanation?
By late 1963 they were beginning to play strange percussion (Don't Bother Me) and little piano parts too, so experimentation began quite early (and I believe that they began to play with they roles by that time too).
Which song was the first? I don't know ... but it seems that you know that Paul's on Not A Second Time ... But if John double-tracked his vocals why not the shout and even the bass? Where's George ... and playing or singing what exatly? Acording to one of your posts:
"If it had been the first track without all fopur Beatles, Lewisohn would have said so."
Why do you think there are more than ONE person that don't hear on this track so many instruments ... Why was Sir George playing the piano (solo included)? I think that they knew that with that arrangement the song was already finished up.
So to you ... Mark is more tangible than anyone else just because he listenend to the tracks (remember that he was not there) ... you can listen to Not A Second Time after all. Remember that he made some mistakes in his first bible and corrected them in his second one ... http://877.fc2web.com/iwantyou.html but he's in an adventure about writing the ultimate one ... in 2015 or so.
Please, tell me which instruments were playing all of them because I can't hear them at all ... this evening.
1. Why should I prove that Paul was not there? If George was not (tell me where), there should be a correct source that tells us that and that source's info about Paul is that he's not present too.
2. Imagine that John decides the instrumentation to his song and he wishes to overdub the bass double-tracking his vocal at the same time ... then the performance is not as good as it should be and Sir George undertakes the bass in the mix. Who can tell me this is not an alternate explanation?
3. By late 1963 they were beginning to play strange percussion (Don't Bother Me) and little piano parts too, so experimentation began quite early (and I believe that they began to play with they roles by that time too).
Which song was the first? I don't know ... but it seems that you know that Paul's on Not A Second Time ... 4. Why was Sir George playing the piano (solo included)? I think that they knew that with that arrangement the song was already finished up. 5. So to you ... Mark is more tangible than anyone else just because he listenend to the tracks (remember than he was not there) ... you can listen to Not A Second Time after all. Remember that he made some mistakes in his first bible and corrected them in his second one ... but he's in an adventure about writing the ultimate one ... in 2015 or so.
Wow!That's a lot to deal with but I'll try to answer a few points.
1.I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying here.
2.You seem to be saying that George Martin played bass.If so, are you serious?
3.I don't know for sure that Paul's on there but there's bass guitar, there's the shout and nothing you've said convinces me that he's not there.
4.George Martin often played piano..He overdubbed piano onto Misery in February of 63.
5.Lewisohn listened to all the takes and the overdubs.He is pretty clear when he says 'Takes one to five concentrated on the basic track while six to nine, the best one, were overdubs onto take five of John's voice, now double-tracked, and George Martin playing the piano'. I have no reason to believe that all four Beatles were not on that basic track even if George's guitar is mixed low on the final release.The track was not returned to and was mixed for mono on 30th September.
Wow!That's a lot to deal with but I'll try to answer a few points.
1.I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying here.
2.You seem to be saying that George Martin played bass.If so, are you serious?
3.I don't know for sure that Paul's on there but there's bass guitar, there's the shout and nothing you've said convinces me that he's not there.
4.George Martin often played piano..He overdubbed piano onto Misery in February of 63.
5.Lewisohn listened to all the takes and the overdubs.He is pretty clear when he says 'Takes one to five concentrated on the basic track while six to nine, the best one, were overdubs onto take five of John's voice, now double-tracked, and George Martin playing the piano'. I have no reason to believe that all four Beatles were not on that basic track even if George's guitar is mixed low on the final release.The track was not returned to and was mixed for mono on 30th September.
1. I'm telling that if George was not there (you're saying that he was but the song itself doesn't tell me that) the same source that tell us "George's not present" will tell us if Paul was present or not ... as simple as that.
2. What I suggested is that John, at the same time as he's double-tracking his vocal could have played a poor bass part too ... and Sir George have hidden it 'cos it was a bad one.
3. There's a bass (for me the clue is where's George, and if he's not there: why the same sources say that Paul neither?) and a shout ... but John sang twice!!! why a mic for Paul if he's not singing on this one (I think he's not even playing)?!
4. Of course, Sir George played piano before, and what I'm trying to say is that there's no guitar solo (poor George Harrison) and Sir George played the part that the song needed (I'm still wondering why was he and not other who played the solo ... if they overdubed, why were not George or Paul playing some more predominant instruments?)... "not much to add to the song, it's enough" they might have thought and because of that George and Paul were out.
5. What all of us are able to listen on the song is what is important to me, because there are examples of takes and overdubs in their whole career with people playing certain instruments that later are not on the released track because they're mixed out, not used or wathever.
When I say that Paul and George are not on the song it's because I've read this and because I've listened to the track ... but I don't forget that they were at the session ... could they have played in the takes (some of them or even all)? Maybe (I doubt it) ... Could Sir George have recorded their parts in another channel and later have left it free for overdubs sacrifying the instruments that both of them would have played? Maybe too ... I think that all this kind of explanations are not available nowhere, but the released track remains available.
Have Mark made mistakes before? ... Certainly Is all this tangible? ... no ... Have all of us got the released track (the one we're talking about -DON'T FORGET THAT- we don't need any guru here to listen to it, it's a thing we can do by our-shelves) to take a listen? ... Of course, ... and our ears too.
---------------
It's clear that you want to believe in what Mark wrote one day, because he listened to more takes than us ... but he didn't mix them or decided which instruments would be on the released one and precisely I'm talking about the released one.
Acording to LarryG (reply 4) on this thread Mark said that ALL of them were on She Said She Said.
I learnt onceuponatime that papers are good friends at all ... they lie more often that most of people think ...
I've not got more to say about this (it's not that I'm bored about it, but everything's already said).
Deja vu: "I apologize if it will make you happy. I still don't know quite what I've done. I tried to tell you what I will do, but if you want me to apologize, if that will make you happy, then I'm sorry."
Don't apologise, Raxo. This is just a friendly discussion, you know. I don't know how important this is, but at the time of this song the Beatles were still using two-track tape for their recordings.So I imagine the amount of studio skulduggery was a bit limited. For my money it's take five plus overdubs from take nine. I don't see why you think John is playing bass guitar on this.Did he even have a bass guitar at the time?Remember Paul's was left-handed so John couldn't borrow it. What I'm saying about Lewisohn is that he's the best source we've got and all of these sites that put up often conflicting information don't impress me at all since quite often they're just repeating hearsay. You seem to be prepared to accept that maybe Paul IS on there so I'll bid you good night (it's midnight here) and call it a day!
Well, I was saying goodbye with a joke ... not apolozing at all: it's friendly discussion (and an interesting one -take a look at reply 13-) ...
... they could made magic with those old machines and when they used four-tracks ... well, you already know that, ... and what I was suggesting about free space it's not imposible but something Sir George used to do for vocals and solo parts in their first years.
I don't think it's John playing the bass (but if it was he, he would have had the same problems with Paul's bass as George a couple of years later, ... after all, for a novice player one or two strings of the bass it's all he would have needed) ... it's only a posible explanation to that poor hidden bass part.
I don't know if it's Paul ... I just listen to the track and read some sources and then I can't understand why that bass is there and in the form it is.
I'd sum up in this double question: Why some people say that George and Paul were not on this track and why the instruments seem to tell me that not all of them played or sang here?
Can anybody tell if Mark says Something about all this?
"Another infamous discrepancy involves Eric Clapton. It's well known that Eric played the lead guitar solo on While My Guitar Gently Weeps, after George became unhappy with not being able to get the part the way he wanted it. But it's not well known that according to George, Eric also played the solo on Something, which is not how it appears on the studio logs. George reportedly took Eric into the studio one night and had him track the solo. George himself told this story on a radio interview."
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