I couldn't believe this rumour when I read it.  John allegedly confessed to Yoko and personal assistant Fred Seaman (who then told a Dakota employee, who in turn told Albert Goldman) that he beat the crap out of Stu when he was drunk.  This lead to Stu's brain hemorrhage which killed him.

Also, Pauline Sutcliffe (Stu's sister) "confirms" this nonsense and says that John and Stu were lovers as well.  Huh?

Since John and Stu are dead, anybody can make up any kind of crap and peddle it as the truth.  That's kind of sad.

Quoted from beatlegirl200

Also, Pauline Sutcliffe (Stu's sister) "confirms" this nonsense

Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically mean it's nonsense. It could be true.

Quoted from Biscuit_Power

Just because you don't like it doesn't automatically mean it's nonsense. It could be true.

... but (as a matter of fact) it's false.

Kind-of like claims made for vegetarianism. Some could be true - but are not.

^Now why did you have to go and say that? Try to be nice, please.

Anyways, I believe that Pauline Sutcliffe's little story was only made up to sell books. Greedy b****. She sold most of Stu's estate, including many of his paintings, just so she could make some cash.

but he would of sold his paintings anyhow.


I think calling her a Greedy B**** is slightly misplaced.

We dont even know these people.
I think sometimes we forget it.

Come on... that book is obviously sensationalized. It's an insult to Stu's memory. And from what I heard, she sold some very personal items as well.

Quoted from Ydoll_Gwyn

... but (as a matter of fact) it's false.

Oh, so you were there and have absolute proof that it never happened?

Of course I hope it's not true, but even John Lennon wasn't perfect.

And about that last comment: how old are you? 12? Grow up.

i have heard of the incident in which john says booted stu in the head a few different places besides lennon.i seem to have read that he had confided this to paul or george.anyway i ain't gonna pike off until i research it.as for john and stu being in love?I BELIEVE IT.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/dotmusic_news/30162.html paulines version.
i am still looking else fors......

number 9 number 9..........of course it could have been a dream...or some rumour i heard...so nevermind.until i find something in stone.but actually it doesn't matter to me either way i'll work tomorrow and sleep tonite.

There's all kinds of speculations. The Beatles got into brawls in Hamburg and Stu got knocked out, Philip Norman speculated that it was Paul who kicked Stu in the head. In the movie 'Backbeat', it was strongly insinuated that John and Stu were very 'close'. I met Pauline Sutcliffe at a Beatlefest and she didn't strike me as a vulture. She seemed very proud of her brother's work and was celebrating him as a brilliant artist that never got his due.

It is also possible that he had a hemorrhage. People have brain aneurysms and brain hemmorhages every day, maybe it just happened. It just sounds more juicy if all kinds of crap is heaped on it. Just tossing it out. His autopsy showed a small indent in his skull though, so it is likely that some kind of trauma exacerbated his hemorrhage.

That John and Stu were lovers I believe.
That John might have kicked Stu in the head I also believe,
But whether that kick exsaberated his death we'll never know.

Why do you believe John and Stuart were in love?

Why can't 2 men just be best friends who love each other without making love to each other?
Is that not  possible??


John must have had HUNDREDS of women.
As he confessed to Cynthia.
And Cynthia has said she never met a man MORE heterosexual than John.

Paul says the John and Stu rumors is all garbage.
I guess if anybody would know, he would!

And what of Astrid and Stu engaged, was that all a cover?

When Paul dies there will probably be a lot of crap about him having an affair with George, or John or Ringo or Pete or Neil or who knows what else.

Lovely how after people die, others can write anything they like.
The dead cannot defend themselves.  

People belive whatever they read, it's very strange. They figure if it's printed, it must be true.

Now Stu's sister. Was she in the bedroom with her brother and John to witness this?
Give me a break!


I DON'T believe it at all.

I guess I just base it on all the stories about his relationship with Brian, the stuff about Stu, things in Alun Williams book (long b4 John died and totally non-sensationlist), the oddity of his relationship with Yoko , the overt hetersexuality, the homophobic violence etc.
Whether he was or wasn't doesn't matter to me, other than its just a another piece of the Beatle story.
Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal of it.

I believe John felt guilty about Stu's death and felt that he was the cause (whether he was or not, who knows) . I think it haunted him up to the day he died. I also believe he and Stu probably had a roll in the hay before too. John was a f**. How else can anybody explain him marrying Yucko?

paul had an affair with george????????????????tell us about that........lol

what?????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So John f***** Stu and then he killed him?

Wow!  No wonder he was so messed up.  

Was Mark David Chapman "Instant Karma"?  

Is there a streak of confession/guilt in John's songs?  

It's weird to think of the violence surrounding the guy.  His mother run over.  His best friend dying of a brain aneurysm--with autopsy showing cranial trauma.  The streetfighting in Hamburg.  The physical abuse of Cynthia.  The drunken barfights during the lost weekend.  

You don't hear about anything remotely similar in the lives of Paul, George or Ringo. Lennon was in some respects the creative catalyst but also the sickness of the Beatles that sought to heal itself creatively.  As D.H. Lawrence said something to the effect that we shed our sicknesses in books.  

As John himself said: "Hold him in his armchair you can feel his disease"?

Enough already!

There is no evidence at all that John and Stu had a sexual relationship.

Sensible people need evidence on which to base their beliefs. Building theory upon theory, saying "it makes sense to me", "how else could such-and-such have happened", "you can't prove it wrong", defy logic and common sense.  

I agree 100% there Ydoll.

Quoted from adamzero

John's admitted bisexuality.

Admitted? When did he admit this?

Here is the story of the rumour which has ALWAYS been denied:

During 1974 Lennon's personal life fell into disrepair — a temporary move to Los Angeles, some drunken public escapades, and a fourteen-month split from Ono during which he had an extramarital affair with Ono's former secretary May Pang. It was also during his time in New York that Lennon purportedly engaged in sexual relationships with men, according to biographers Albert Goldman (''The Lives of John Lennon'') and Geoffrey Giuliano (''Lennon in New York''). Lennon's estate, however, has denied charges that he was bisexual. It should be noted that both Goldman and Giuliano have been heavily criticized for their work.

they found pecker tracks in the benz.......

careful with that ax eugene!!!!!

either way there will always be some doubt in my mind as to lennons conquests be they male or female....it doesn't change the way i feel about his music.....

Quoted from Ydoll_Gwyn

Enough already!

There is no evidence at all that John and Stu had a sexual relationship.

Sensible people need evidence on which to base their beliefs. Building theory upon theory, saying "it makes sense to me", "how else could such-and-such have happened", "you can't prove it wrong", defy logic and common sense.  

Easy Dolly. Was it not you that quoted '... but (as a matter of fact) it's false.' pertaining to John possibly being the cause of Stu's death? Just as with the sexual relationship content, there is also no evidence that John was in fact NOT the cause of Stu's death. Dont preach and then not act out your own sermon.

Just to set the record straight, my comments about John and Stu having a roll in the hay was intended to be humerous. I dont truly beileve it happened. I do believe he probably let Brian give him a hand job or something when they were alone in Barcelona, but could care less.

If you have concrete evidence that John had nothing to do with Stu's death and you present it, i'll gladly apologize.

who gets the hand job if its proved me or dolly????

Quoted from Ydoll_Gwyn

Enough already!

There is no evidence at all that John and Stu had a sexual relationship.

Sensible people need evidence on which to base their beliefs. Building theory upon theory, saying "it makes sense to me", "how else could such-and-such have happened", "you can't prove it wrong", defy logic and common sense.  

Amen. John and Stu had an incredible bond. They would share their art, write 18 page letters back and forth, and I'm sure their was alot of love. Why the hell does a close relationship always have to carry some sexual connotation? I am fortunate to have a handful of close buds who I would kill for and that I love like brothers, but a sexual component is so absurd, I can't think of an adjective.

Absurd. Wouln't that be your adjective??

Quoted from tkitna

Easy Dolly. Was it not you that quoted '... but (as a matter of fact) it's false.' pertaining to John possibly being the cause of Stu's death? Just as with the sexual relationship content, there is also no evidence that John was in fact NOT the cause of Stu's death. Dont preach and then not act out your own sermon.

Just to set the record straight, my comments about John and Stu having a roll in the hay was intended to be humerous. I dont truly beileve it happened. I do believe he probably let Brian give him a hand job or something when they were alone in Barcelona, but could care less.

If you have concrete evidence that John had nothing to do with Stu's death and you present it, i'll gladly apologize.

Man, I don't think you understand EVIDENCE. The burden of proof or evidence is on the asserter. If someone thinks John and Stu had a sexual relationship, then he should give the evidence for that belief. If I say in response to the assertion that I don't believe it because of LACK of evidence, you can't then say to me, well prove they didn't have a sexual relationship. That's goofy.

What I wrote there above applies, of course, to ANY assertion. The asserter must provide the proof/evidence. If it doesn't surface, that the only intelligent thing to do is not to believe the assertion.

Quoted from Maccalvr

Absurd. Wouln't that be your adjective??

I suppose, but I was looking for a word that had a little more ooomph behind it. Whoops, did I say "Behind"? Guess that means I'm putting from the rough just like John and Stu.

Well, um. Stu died -- does it matter if John allegedly "killed" him (if he did or didn't)? Nothin' we, anyone can do. *shrug*

when did john admit he was bi?

Found this:

THE FACTS. The information we have is pretty thin when it comes to facts. In this category would be things that were documented at the time by medical personel and therefore retrievable from Stu's medical records:
1. Stu visited a doctor in Hamburg in Feb, 1962 complaining of episodes of severe headaches. X-rays did not reveal any problem.
2. Stu died in an ambulance enroute to the hospital on April 10, 1962.
3. His autopsy showed cerebral hemorrhage (bleeding in the brain) with bleeding into the right ventricle.  


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THE TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES.
According to statements from Astrid and her mother, Stu had his studio in the attic of Astrid's mothers home, and was living in the house at the time of his death. Astrid reports that Stu had terrible headaches. Bill Harry in"The Complete Beatles Encyclopedia" quotes her as saying that "the headaches became violent, they seemed like fits." Information on how long he had the headaches is sketchy, but according to some sources, his mother believes they began about a year before his death. Astrid's mother reports that he fell down the attic stairs but it is difficult to ascertain whether this was weeks, or days before his death. Astrid states she found him unconscious in his bed on April 10 and called the ambulance.  


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THE FIGHT.
There are stories of John and Stu being involved in a fight in a Liverpool or Hamburg alley, in which Stu was kicked in the head. Some Beatles historians believe this is Beatle Mythology, not fact. The date of the fight is unknown, but unless it occurred during Stu's visit home at Christmas 1961, (four months before his death) it would have had to have been before they went to Hamburg in March of 1961 (a year before his death) since Stu stayed in Hamburg when the others returned to Liverpool. Even if the fight occurred in Hamburg it would have had to have been about nine months before his death as the Beatles left Hamburg in mid-summer of 1961 and returned in April of 1962, the day after Stu's death.


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THE MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS.
The possible causes of cerebral hemorrhage are: Stroke , Brain tumor , Trauma (a blow to the head) , Aneurysm , AVM



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STROKE is virtually unheard of in people Stu's age as it is the result of atherosclerosis and/or high blood pressure.  


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A BRAIN TUMOR may cause bleeding, however the presence of a tumor large enough to cause bleeding would have been obvious on autopsy.  


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TRAUMA. A blow to the head can cause three possible types of bleeds.:

1. An EPIDURAL BLEED.
A ruptured artery rapidly pumps blood into the skull and the brain is compressed by the growing blood clot. The patient becomes unconscious within hours after the injury and dies within about 24 hours if it is not treated. This could be the result of the fall down the stairs. In this scenario, however, there would be no history of headaches (though the headaches may have been coincidental) and the blood clot would not be in the ventricle. Since John was not in Hamburg immediately preceding Stu's death, he could not have caused an epidural bleed.  
2. A SUBDURAL BLEED.
A ruptured vein oozes blood into the skull. The patient deteriorates slowly over a period of about two weeks, (occaisionally several weeks) with unsteady gait progressing to confusion, then lethargy and coma. Several things rule out a subdural bleed as the cause of Stu's death.
a. A subdural is easily identifiable on autopsy and the blood clot is found on the surface of the brain, not in the ventricle.
b. There is no evidence that Stu experienced progressive deterioration. Death from a subdural would have resulted in Stu being confused and unable to walk several days before his death, then difficult to wake up, and finally comatose for several hours to a day or more before his death. It is inconcievable that Astrid watched him slowly deteriorate to a coma before deciding to take him to the hospital which is what she would have had to do in order for him to die enroute.
c. All reports are of episodes of headache. Any headache caused by a subdural would be nearly continuous and they are not generally reported as severe.
If John had kicked Stu in the head it would have had to have been almost four months before his death (at Christmas time). This is again outside of the necessary time frame for John to be implicated in Stu's death if it were due to a subdural bleed.  
3. AN INTRACRANIAL BLEED.
A severe blow to the head can cause bleeding deep into the brain, fequently with rupture into the ventricles. Death can be rapid, but the patient may last up to about 3 days and during that three days the patient is near comatose or comatose. This fits the situation only if the fall down the stairs occurred just before he died. Neither Astrid or her mother reported that. Again, John was not present in the necessary time frame to have cause the injury.  


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ANEURYSMS are weak spots in arteries. They are present from birth and gradually enlarge. They most frequently rupture in patients over 30. Although there may be some warning headaches, most often there is simply a single, explosive headache. Half of aneurysm patients die immediately. The location of most aneurysms makes bleeding into the ventricle very possible. An aneurysm is certainly a strong possibility in Stu's case.  


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An AVM, also present from birth, is a malformation in the connection between an artery and a vein. The veins in the area have arterial blood pumped into them. Because veins are not made to handle the high pressure of arterial blood, the become enlarged and eventually bleed. They frequently have repeated small bleeds causing severe episodic headaches before a large bleed occurs and seizures ("fits") are common. The large bleed can be fatal. AVM ruptures are most common in teens and young adults. Bleeding into just one ventricle is less likely with an AVM than an aneurysm, but the history of headaches, age, and rapid death make AVM a very strong possibility.  


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In summary, the two causes of death that best fit the scenario are Aneurysm and AVM, both congenital and unrelated to any blow to the head. None of the causes of death from a blow to the head fit the time frames or history we have on Stu. More importantly to this discussion, John was not with Stu in the four months prior to his death. No head trauma causes cerebral bleeding and death that long after injury. Therefore, John could not have been responsible for Stu's death.

Philip Norman wasn't too kind to Paul in his book, but it makes for good gossip. I think Stu's condition was progressive and unfortunately ended a genius' life far too early.

A good friend of mine died of an aneurysm in his freshman year of college.  He probably had the aneurysm from birth, but was leading a pretty wild freshman life that didn't help things.  I've always wondered if Stu's Hamburg-Beatles lifestyle was too much for him.

But Bobber's exactly right, an aneurysm can "pop" at any time.  

It'd be interesting to know what kind of autopsy procedure was done in the early 1960s in Hamburg.  I doubt they would have been able to tell very much beyond hemorrhage.  

However, a sufficient blow to the head could certainly damage a vein or artery which could later rupture--a week, month or year later.  

I wonder if he ever got any treatment for his headaches.  

I think John would have tried anything with anybody. No hard scientific fact to back this up, just from what I, and therefore, we, know of him.