Does George Martin have a point here?

MARTIN DEMANDS CREDIT FOR YESTERDAY    
  
Songwriter GEORGE MARTIN is demanding recognition for co-writing THE BEATLES' hit YESTERDAY, insisting he penned the track alongside SIR PAUL McCARTNEY.

The song's composers are officially listed as McCartney and late Beatle JOHN LENNON, but Martin claims McCartney added Lennon's name to the songwriters list, despite the IMAGINE singer having no involvement in the melody.

He says, "We didn't know what to do with it. It was such a soppy tune, so I went away and wrote a score for a string quartet to go with it.

"Two days later I was rehearsing it and Paul McCartney walked in. He'd never seen a score before, and he said, 'It hasn't got my name on it.'

"So I handed him a pencil and he signed it.

"He wrote John Lennon's name too - although he had nothing to do with it - and added Esquire to mine."

The same old story ... Lennon/McCartney team is always fair to have the credits (not in my opinion) but when someone else (me sometimes) added that George, Ringo, Neil, Mal, Pete (Shotton), Sir George, Donovan, Yoko and many others collaborated too with bits here and there -at least as much as Paul or John, if not more, in lots of songs but without any credits-  ...   We discuss if John or Paul wrote/composed this or that but don't pay attention to others' help ... let's open our minds, please.

Sir George was on Yesterday, wasn't he? He should have got more credits for sure ... but he's not the only one.

Any ideas where this story originated Bobber?

I am not trying to diminish what George Martin's contribution was to Yesterday but ultimately Paul wrote the words AND music - Martin scored and arranged it for a string quartet. If he'd suggested that She Loves You would have sounded better with a string arrangement would he want the songwriting credit for that too? He was the Beatles' producer and it was his job to interpret their ideas and come up with his own and ultimately get it all down on tape.

The next thing Mike Leander will want a share of the songwriting on She's Leaving Home!

I agree with you here, TE. By the way, I read it on contactmusic.com.

^Great answer End.

doing his job.......yes exactly......i need credit too for buying the music....

Well, let's see ... let's see ...

Certainly Yesterday is not the same as any other song ... (almost released as a Macca solo song)

She's Leaving Home's story, for example, is quite diferent, because the idea of the arrangement -and the arrengement itself- was entirely Paul ... he needed Sir George just to write -not compose- the notes on a paper: that's all  ... Sir George couldn't and it was done by Mike, OK ... Mike didn't compose anything on that one, so there's no place for credits, as far as I can see ... (oh!, John sang backing vocals too)  

In the case of other songs (She Loves You ...) if the arrangement, harmonies and other things were defined by the composers (John+Paul, John or Paul) they matter would be a diferent one -the paper of the producer wouldn't be as important as it's in Yesterday- Sir George would collaborate doing his job as a part of a team, that's all, ... but his role in Yesterday is prominent, he's not just interpreting their ideas and if John got credits he should have too, why not? ...  it would have been fair acording to the facts ...

If we think that Paul wrote the words and CHORDS but not the music - Martin scored and arranged it for a string quartet. Certainly Sir George defined the song, gave it its personality ... He did more than John, didn't he? ... What did John? ... but who got the credits instead?

It's a Macca song ... or a Macca/Martin (The Sirs) song ... but it's not a Lennon/McCartney one (John said once that he did nothing)  

It seems that everyone (DJs, public, ... ) have done more for the song than John   ... but he got some money ... very unfair  

Summing up: the matter here is that John got credits ... if the line would say 'by Paul McCartney' I'm sure that nobody would be talking about all this ...  

P.S. I think that the only ones that were just doing their job were the classical musicians ...

Just to compare, how much of the arrangement in Walrus was Mr M interpreting Johns ideas or were George's own? Because that arrangement also defines Walrus as much as the lyric or the chords.

If you have listened to the track without the string arrangement you had seen how much it was already defined ... the vowel arrengement was entirely Sir George, by the way ... and John loved it  

I was not going on that way when I used define, as you surely know.

After all, the thing on Yesterday was quite diferent 'cos the arrangement: a quartet and no drums or more guitars, was completely an idea of Sir George ... by that time it all was an acoustic guitar and vocal ... but in I Am The Walrus the thing is quite diferent ... he was collaborating -John ask him for an arrangement- ... as the rest of them ... even Paul was there ... at the studio ... playing and so, y'know    

^Very true. But we've all heard Paul play Yesterday live with just the guitar, and it's still Yesterday. Does then the arrangement really define the song, or just enhance it?

I never wanted to say that the arrangement defined the song but Sir George defined the song ... the guys played it with all their instruments on stage during their last tour in 1966 too.  
By the way, Paul also played Eleanor Rigby with just one acoustic guitar but it's not exactly the same, is it?

Quoted from raxo

By the way, Paul also played Eleanor Rigby with just one acoustic guitar but it's not exactly the same, is it?

In the context of who should get writing credits, I'd have to say that yes, it is the same.  *

never used the face before.  

Quoted from kevin_b

In the context of who should get writing credits, I'd have to say that yes, it is the same.  *

never used the face before.  

When I mentioned Eleanor Rigby on one acoustic guitar I was answering your post about Yesterday on stage and the necessity of strings  ... nothing about the credits ... you know that Eleanor Rigby's credits   ... well, another story there ...  

Congrats ... for your face! LOL!      

All interesting. George was on a healthy salary to be a producer. I am sure also he would have picked up wages for his arrangement.

This kind of thing splits bands before they even begin and I have found myself in similar situations. I can imagine George becoming incredibly attached and also rightly proud about how he embellished and sometimes saved songs from relative obscurity or the bootleg scrapheap.
Add6's and 11's etc. She Loves You would never have been so interesting without these Martin touches.

To go one step further though and claim credits is certainly for me, an Uncool, UnGeorge thing to do. Still, with Macca himself seeming increasingly more concerned about these things then maybe these older gentlemen are concerned mainly by legacy. A vain thing to behold when the collective skill is what should be celebrated.

Legally, this is an area where music llawyers love to be.......Vultures!!!!!

But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney?   Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too?

Quoted from raxo

But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney?   Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too?

Because it would open up a can of worms. (A great English saying.)

Quoted from raxo

But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney?   Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too?

I can't answer that Raxo. We all know the Lennon/McCartney thing is a crock. Apps has got it right - arrangers claiming credit is an uncool thing to do. Bugger the legality.

Quoted from kevin_b

I can't answer that Raxo. We all know the Lennon/McCartney thing is a crock. Apps has got it right - arrangers claiming credit is an uncool thing to do. Bugger the legality.

I agree ...

... but we must remember that almost everything Paul or John added to a song written by the other was just an arrangement (one chord or harmony or even one word) most of the times ... and nobody doubt that he (whoever in every case) should have got credits for that ... because we consider that he (whoever again) was composing/writing ... not arranging ... but the thing is that there were more people who did that too in many songs (George, Ringo, and others including Sir George too) ... and I don't care if their main roles were musicians, producers, arrangers, friends or wifes/girlfriends ... Linda got credits in 1971 ...  

By agreement right from the VERY beginning, regardless of who wrote it, the songwriting credit was shared McCartney/Lennon at the beginning and later Lennon/McCartney (we wont get into THAT argument here!!). So... Paul wrote a new song and immediately added John as co-writer - just as John would have done if HE'D written it! End of story as far as I'm concerned.

John didn't deserve credit, but Paul added his name because that is what they agreed they would always do. Paul ALREADY had the chords and the lyrics and George Martin suggested it would sound better with a string quartet then scored it as such - that was his job!

So we're not talking about writing credits after all, only Sir George ... OK, then!  

I've got some questions then:

1. Did Paul write "John Lennon" on his theme for The Family Way one year later? Why?
2. And in Catcall? or it was Woman? one with pseudonymous but the other?
2. What did Ringo do on What Goes On very few months later to share credits?

Does anybody know?  

They all were doing their job ... and they all were paid! ...

Now we go to the heavy, weighty discussion on publishing. Of course they were all paid but you get paid repetively, possibly all your life for a publishing royalty.

As End said. Len/Mac agreed right at the beginning when it was obvious who the main songwriting contributors were to be.


In answer...1. Separate, non-Beatle project. 2. You can drop anyone you like onto credits. This could be for a number of reasons. Ringo unhappy perhaps? Main vocalist/writer on the tune. Just a young band dealing with a first time publishing situation? A pension fund for Richard? Diffusing a potential band break-up?

Did you also know that Macca never wrote his Liverpool Oratario? Someone else did.

That had me shocked. Could he really stoop to such levels?

I'm not the one who's using the argument of "he was already paid" as a valid one, y'know ...

If John and Paul agreed what we all know why Ringo was there in What Goes One and Sir George couldn't have been in Yesterday? The same reasoning can be used in both cases but in Sir George's one is more justified.

For the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)

Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too? Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?

Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?

Anyway ... I see your points, mates ... I only hope you can see mine (it all began with me trying to see Sir George's) ...  

Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...

Quoted from raxo

So we're not talking about writing credits after all, only Sir George ... OK, then!  

I've got some questions then:

1. Did Paul write "John Lennon" on his theme for The Family Way one year later? Why?
2. And in Catcall? or it was Woman? one with pseudonymous but the other?
2. What did Ringo do on What Goes On very few months later to share credits?

Does anybody know?  

They all were doing their job ... and they all were paid! ...

1. The Family Way was not a Beatle product and was not even released on Parlophone. But to further prove a point, as in Yesterday, Paul wrote the music and George Martin arranged it - however Paul gets the songwriting credit and NOT a co-writing credit with George Martin because Paul was the composer.
2. Although Paul wrote 'Woman', the songwriter was credited as Bernard Webb. This was just an experiment to see how well the song would fair without a Lennon/McCartney credit.
3. What Goes On was a VERY old song of John's that was resurrected for the Rubber Soul sessions and was worked on by both Paul AND Ringo. Incidentally, Ringo is credited as coming up with the line "waiting for the tides of time".

My argument is that George Martin does not deserve a songwriting credit for a song he did not compose - he was the arranger and producer.

Quoted from raxo

IFor the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)

This song is mentioned as being a composition of Ringo's as early as 1963 - it was even partially sung by Paul on a Pop Goes The Beatles radio show (in a somewhat jokey manner though) in reference to it being Ringo's song.

Quoted from raxo

Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?

Paul denies this in his Anthology interview.

Quoted from raxo

Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?

All credited to paul as he composed it.

Quoted from raxo

Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...

The composer always gets the songwriting credit, not the arranger.

john and paul wrote most of what goes on,and i believe don't pass me by was mostly paul....and a contract where copyrights are concerned you must list both parties reguardless who did the work,its like a trademark,thats why john is on yesterday and paul on give peace a chance........thirdly bernard webb was put on woman for 2 reasons,one that peter and grogan wouldn't be over shawdowed by doing a mccartney song and second that it would be considered a lennon and mccartney tune and therefore permission obtainted to use it and payment be made to use it......and lastly it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say...if he did then its sour grapes...they said they owed him a debt...he knows what he did and noone can deny...so why try for more credit..it don't sound like him....he is not that vain....

Quoted from pc31

it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say

I have read the original article and you're absolutely right Marshall - it was just a headline grabbing sound-bite and his comment does appear to have been taken out of context.

I stuck my 10 cents in here because some (no names!) appeared to be saying that he DOES deserve a credit instead of John. John deserves to be credited simply because that was his agreement with Paul and George Martin doesn't, because he only(!!) arranged Paul's song for a string quartet.

Quoted from raxo

Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too?

John didn't compose GPAC.

I mentioned The family Way as an example of a theme composed by Paul without Lennon credits ... so the agreement in that case was somehow broken ... Lennon's solo project (Give Peace A Chance) was another example ...

The way Ringo got credits for What Goes On is a significant example too ... he wrote some line for Yellow Submarine too (one he sang) some months later, but got no credits ... and some of them worked on Eleanor Rigby too ... so the formula was somehow arbitrary ... and they were changing now and then in -at least- those two years (65-66) ...  

My point of view is that what Sir George did on Yesterday was more than what John or Paul did on lots of other songs composed by the other of them ... and lots of people consider that wathever the other added was "composing" (not arranging): that's the only thing I was trying to say ... if we consider that one of them (John or Paul) had the right for the credits for some bits then there are lots of other people (not only Sir George) that deserve the credits too ... that's because I said "let's open our minds (all of us)"  

Yep, Paul said he composed Liverpool Oratorio ... and he got the credits ... we're answering a question made by An Apple Beatle here ...  

By the way, the composer doesn't always get the songwriter credit and some arrangers get ... I'd like to know which role Linda had got to get the credits ... but I gues that she only suggested little changes and so ... the role of an arranger perhaps?  

If all of you have proven that I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong ...

P.S. Let's go on with our (busy) lives ...  

This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on

Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.

Quoted from The_End

This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on

Neither I.  

Tho I've realized that some people around these forums (none of the ones that have posted on this thread) take opinions as something personal or even offensive or attacks against them -don't ask me who or why- ...

I think that our points are already on the table ...

Sir George didn't write or composed the song, I agree -I'm not blind or deaf ... yet ... give me time LOL!- but helped a lot to define it as a great ballad (a great step if you ask me) so in some way he (tho not only he) made it a standard ...

Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded   - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...

In my opinion, without Sir George decision Yesterday would be another Michelle ... because the melody was/is great and the words were/are not bad but less people would re-main listening as much as they did from the very begining without that classical arrangement ... and perhaps Eleanor Rigby wouldn't get that approach next year.  

I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others) ...

If I'm right there's another discrepancy ...
If I'm wrong I would like to ask if a song that it's compose for another artist when that artist ask you for a song it's not a solo project? More or less as The Family Way theme was ...

Quoted from Bobber

Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.

More or less my thoughts too ...

So I seized the opportunity to talk about other people's help, during their career, that were hidden by the famous credits ... and Yesterday is a very good example to do it ...

Quoted from raxo

Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded   - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...

I actually quite like the 'group' arrangement of Yesterday - to my ears it sounds like the only song they did rehearse for their 1966 tour!

Quoted from raxo

I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others