I just read somewhere that You've Got To Hide Your Love Away was written for Brian Epstein. Haven't heard that one before. Does anyone know any details on that subject? Looking at the lyrics now, it does make sense if you switch around the pronouns a bit, but I've never read that anywhere else.

It's been said, but probably not true.

I've heard that too, FoxD. It does make sense for John to be singing "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" with Brian in mind, because homosexuality (the act, not the predisposition) was illegal in London at that time. So you can hear it as a sympathetic ballad where John is imagining the difficulties of having to lead this clandestine lifestyle.

Is it a love song from John to Brian? I highly doubt it. Brian was his friend, and John was interested in his lifestyle (like, what's this all about, and how does it work?), but he always seemed extremely het in his relationships to me. Cynthia and Paul always found the gay rumors strange, and I figure they ought to know.

Hmm, I think I agree with you, Harihead. I don't think John was gay either (besides that one Spanish vacation type thing), but I think it might have been a way for him to quietly acknowledge Brian's problems in society. (Quietly and in song form because he made fun of Brian in his presence at every opportunity he got...)

The lyrics do make sense for the song to be about Brian but, yeah like HH, I dont think its song to Brian. Perhaps Brian inspired it... but then the line "how could she say to me love will find a way?" seems out of place, no?  

Here's a reference:

Quoted Text

At the time that this was written, it was thought to be a warning to Brian Epstein to keep his homosexual activities hidden as it was illegal in Britain at the time. The opening of the song with John's feelings was a first for him and it became more common in his songs after this.

Quoted from Kaleidoscope_Eyes

but then the line "how could she say to me love will find a way?" seems out of place, no?  

Not really, to me. Obviously John's switched to "he" to "she" to make it sound like a more conventional love song. But if you pretend that this is a song about Brian, this line could refer to any one of Brian's friends or a lover telling him not to give up hope; that love will eventually find him.  I think it's a very sweet sentiment.  This is one of the Beatles songs that I play the most. It's got brilliant words and the guitar part is really fun to play.

What book was your reference in, Flaming Pie in the Sky? I mean, there are Beatles authors and then there are Beatles exploiters, and the shelves are full of them. Even so, the quote doesn't sound particularly suggestive to me.

Quoted Text

The opening of the song with John's feelings was a first for him and it became more common in his songs after this.

All this is saying is that John opened the song with a personal emotion. "...head in hand, turn my back to the wall" absolutely shows the singer's depression and possibly despair.  It's an elegant way of summarizing a crisis of the heart.  I love John's songs that explore this; John had led a troubled life, and this type of emotion ran very strong for him. Thank you, Bob Dylan, for (by example) showing John that he could turn some of his personal emotions into a really terrific song.

I suppose I should add that I don't see a song or a story as autobiographical, unless the writer tells me that it is meant to be taken that way.  I think most creative people take the germ of an idea as their inspiration, and then flesh out the song or story as part of their craft.  That way you get emotions that ring true, while not unduly burdening yourself with what might be happening in your own life. Even a pop star is going to want to retain some of his privacy! Cheers.

Quoted from The Fox Drummer

I don't think John was gay either (besides that one Spanish vacation type thing)

Oh, don't believe that.

I think without a doubt John was at the least sexually "confused.". Too much smoke for there not to be a fire. And not just with Brian - gay rumours have always followed John around - and not just connected with Brian either.
And that "one spanish vacation thing" - so John leaping into bed for a week with an older man can be dismissed as what - just silly old John? He was a laugh eh?. Oh, not going to try that again. And of the other men who have spoken of sleeping with John - do we dismiss them all as liers. Because John was a Beatle?

Could be the other way round. Only because Brian was homosexual and they went on holiday together, it is certain that they had sex? So far it is nothing but smoke. I don't see any evidence of a fire.

Maybe, but unless someone has film of John in the act we will never have definate proof. And I know burden of proof is on the accuser (me) and that I can't front up with that.
But.... the circumstantial stuff
-his remarkably close relationship with Stuart (all those ten page letters )
-his holiday with Brian
-his little affair with the very gay Mr Royston and Polythene "Pam".
-Alun williams book.
-the various men who have outed him (admittedly their motives could be disputed.
-his marriage to a woman who was clearly a mother substitute.

If it was anyone else I'd probably think there was something in it.

We've had this conversation before:
http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/b-songs/m-1106329907/s-new/
And bugger if it wasn't started by me. I was in short pants then.

Quoted from Kevin

And bugger if it wasn't started by me. I was in short pants then.

John would have liked that!

Quoted from Kevin

-Alun williams book.
-the various men who have outed him (admittedly their motives could be disputed.
...
If it was anyone else I'd probably think there was something in it.

Wow, this is the first I've heard about "various men who have outed him". Could you tell me your reference, please? I'd like to learn more. Also, what does Williams say?

This is an interesting topic to me, because I have a friend who cannot decide if she is het, bi or gay. I have always been ragingly het, but I have come to understand that sexual orientation is more of a spectrum than a case of either/or. Even things we traditionally think of as black & white have gradations. Life/Death- how many people are brought back after being clinically dead? (A fair number; my sister was an OR nurse.) Or Boy/Girl -- hermaphrodites, anyone? I figure they must have a very tough time in the world, since gender is so basic to our self definition and how other people refer to us. (They're going to say "he" or "she"-- pick one.)

So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do. Didn't you ever go through that age where your friends/parents/teachers said, "It's okay if you're attracted to someone of the same sex?" Such a notion floored me (ragingly het, remember?) but apparently it's common enough that they discuss it in school. Considering the variety of experience that many people crave, it doesn't strike me as inconceivable that John was pulled in this direction or experimented with it. But he defined himself as het, and had tons of het relationships, so calling him "gay" just doesn't work. At most he'd be bi. Anyway, just my thoughts.

I can't provide quotes or names so excuse me if I'm non commital.(and this is all off the top of my head)
There was a dancer who said he spent a night with John.
A New York singer songwriter has also said that he and John had an illicit affair.
Alan Williams says ( in a very non sensational way) that one of the four enjoyed the company of gentleman in Hamburg. He gave no names, and at the time I thought it was George.
I know not one of the things on their own mean anything, but taken all together it does. And what does John mean by this 1980 quote about him and Brian (remembering his wife was sat next to him):
"I went on holiday to Spain with Brian... which started all the rumors that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But we did have a pretty intense relationship."

Quoted from harihead

So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do.

Now that would be a fun poll.

Quoted from harihead

So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do. Didn't you ever go through that age where your friends/parents/teachers said, "It's okay if you're attracted to someone of the same sex?" Such a notion floored me (ragingly het, remember?) but apparently it's common enough that they discuss it in school. Considering the variety of experience that many people crave, it doesn't strike me as inconceivable that John was pulled in this direction or experimented with it. But he defined himself as het, and had tons of het relationships, so calling him "gay" just doesn't work. At most he'd be bi. Anyway, just my thoughts.

i agree 100%  

*blows komakino a kiss*

Quoted from Kevin

Now that would be a fun poll.

Who would answer it?  

The line "If she's gone I can't go on" seems a bit... hmm-like. Even if you change the she to he, it wouldnt be the end of the world for Brian if his partner leaves him because the Beatles were his passion. Unless the partner is John.  

True, but you'd have to read the lyric as a literal event in John's life. I don't think it was meant to be a literal description of anything. I think he took the inspiration and composed a pop song out of it-- that means basically a boy/girl love song.

Of course this is just my interpretation. It's my experience that, when people write, they typically bend the words and ideas to fit their creation. It's not like a news report. "He blew his mind out in a car" is not a literal description of how Tara Browne died. Yes, he died in a car crash, but he did not blow out his mind, he hit a parked van. John crafted the words to make his song more effective.

Quoted from harihead

Of course this is just my interpretation.

I completely agree with your interpretation.

You know, i have always wondered why the Beatles never wrote a song about Epstein (a thank you song or a "we are missing you" type of song). I think i know the answer but... i stil wonder

Quoted from Kaleidoscope_Eyes

You know, i have always wondered why the Beatles never wrote a song about Epstein (a thank you song or a "we are missing you" type of song). I think i know the answer but... i stil wonder

Ooh, I have to say, I never thought about it. Would you mind sharing your speculation? Cheers.

my speculations... hmmm... *to tell the truth i forgot what i had in mind yesterday* but i'd imagine John not writing about Eppy becuase it was too painful perhaps? Or he had other things to worry about, like it-aint-working-with-cyn situation. You know, maybe they still felt uneasy writing a sincere song about a homosexual....? Oh I dunno... But they could have done it later....

I've heard it before...

  I'm pretty sure it was written about him... because of his "preference"...

Quoted from harihead

So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. John, as was previously mentioned, has always come off as 'sexually confused' to me, so I think that it might have been possible that he experimented with it for personal reasons - because he was frustrated with his current relationship, because he wanted to try something different, because he was just curious, perhaps. I wouldn't put it past him, really - I don't think he'd be very squeamish about anything having to do with sex , and if he and Brian did actually end up doing anything (and I do think this is debatable, I was just citing the Spanish vacation as a possibility), it was Brian, after all, someone he knew and trusted.

I think if John was privately intrigued by homosexuality, it would make sense that he would write a song about it with Brian in mind, as the closest person to them who was gay. (And then disguise it, of course, by doing some switching of pronouns, because the other way around could be potentially disasterous at the time).

I think John was the kind of guy that went out to beat up gays.

Well, he certainly gave Brian quite a bit of flak, but that was verbal only...do you mean physically? Because I definitely wouldn't write him down as that kind of person.

i kind of agree with Bobber.... at least in his early years.... before the whole PEACE thing....


    maybe he just tolerated brian b/c he was a good manager....

i can't even begin to try and explain john'smind....

Quoted from DarkSweetLady

i kind of agree with Bobber.... at least in his early years.... before the whole PEACE thing....
maybe he just tolerated brian b/c he was a good manager....
i can't even begin to try and explain john'smind....

Certainly in the early Beatles days, John Lennon could be a terrible pain in the a**. Even Stuart Sutcliffe suffered John's neverending sarcasm. And John could be physically violent too. He even beat up his own girlfriend once.

I love this "John was intrigued" by homosexuality stuff. I think you're allowing John a bit of grace denied to others. Intrigued?
Re his homophobia (physical and verbal) have you heard the saying "sir - you doth protest to much!"
I quote: "Hompohobia....attitudes serving an ego defensive function lower a person's anxiety resulting from her or his unconscious psychological conflicts, such as those surrounding sexuality or gender."

I think it would be very much in keeping with John's character to use his wit and sarcasm (and violence) to mask an uncomfortable truth.
ASnd it's not as if Brian was an isolated incident. Was john still intrigued in '66 when he climbed into bed with very openly gay Mr Royston and "Pam?"

Well, intrigued to say the least: http://dmbeatles.com/forums/b-songs/m-1106329907/s-0/

Oh, Kevin, you know I love you.

Quoted from Kevin

Was john still intrigued in '66 when he climbed into bed with very openly gay Mr Royston and "Pam?"

Well, my answer would be, Yes!

I don't know anything about this incident, but considering the various wacky things John did throughout his life, this seems of a piece with it. Remember, I'm spectrum gal! Sexuality is a spectrum. Some people have no interest in their same gender, some have an interest, some have an attraction, some are only attracted to their same sex. I don't have a problem with it, personally. I have too many gay friends to feel the stigma some people seem to feel about being homosexual. I'm happy with John being anywhere on the spectrum he actually was. I'm only unhappy about the prejudices that make "homosexual" into a slur. I hope we've come a bit farther today in understanding and tolerance from when John was a young man. *hugs all around, irrespective of gender*

^ I agree totally. This is not about making a judgement call.
I still don't think it's fair that John gets let off with being "intrigued" yet if anyone of us did the same we'd be tagged at best bisexual, at worse a screaming queen, or get called "Kevin the bus-driver f*cker" and forced to move town.....

Right, sorry. What I meant to imply with that "intrigued" business is that I still don't think we know to what degree John engaged in homosexual behavior. (Correct me if I'm wrong; my knowledge of John lore is incomplete.) He definitely asked Eppy about it when they vacationed-- "What makes this guy attractive?" and so on. Well, that's just curious. I've done the same. The Beatles definitely shared women and (at least when they were young) had sex in the same room, so this Pam business can be more of the same (as I don't know the details, I could be wrong).

I didn't mean to point to anyone here as being intolerant. It's just this idea that, if John in any way had any kind of homosexual encounter, he's gay. Which is just silly IMHO. I'm just personally trying to keep an open mind about it. If John considered himself straight, he'd be annoyed at being called gay (young John would actually attack you; we have proof!). Although perhaps today he'd take it as a compliment. You never know.

Quoted from Kevin

we'd be tagged at best bisexual, at worse a screaming queen, or get called "Kevin the bus-driver f*cker" and forced to move town.....

This is the attitude I'm referring to. People being tagged and branded with insulting names, and forced to move town when they have done nothing wrong and nothing that hurts anybody else. Really, this is one prejudice that just baffles me.

Quoted from harihead

This is the attitude I'm referring to. People being tagged and branded with insulting names, and forced to move town when they have done nothing wrong and nothing that hurts anybody else. Really, this is one prejudice that just baffles me.

I know. It really hurt.
I'm not for a moment suggesting John wasn't attracted to women (though it would not suprise me to find out he wasn't.)
I think I'm more battling against those who say "of course John was straight" as if it were impossible for a Beatle to be anything but.
And if I'm really honest, I probably want John to be bent. I get a nice warm feeling when the safe-white-middleclass-heterosexual world gets a little kick in the nuts. Nice for us to remember that we're not all square pegs in square holes.