a lot of his songs sound very ray davies like, songs like polythene pam and mean mr mustard?

Although I'm a Beatles freak, don't get me started on the Kinks---Ray & Dave are BELOVED by me too. But I never made that comparison to Abbey Road. Brilliant observation. Ray was/and still is I suppose, the king of the 3 minute rock opera (w/ Pete Townshend of course claiming the longer form)but now that u mention it, Side 2 of Abbey R. has all those short ditties (or snippets) that would make any Kinks fan salivate...(any one of which could've found it's way onto the Kinks Kronikles compilation w/ ease..)

I'm not sure about this. Looks like tomorrow is going to be a Kinks day

Had the chance to see Ray a couple of years ago. Bloody brilliant. What a showman!

not to mention Dave "Death of a Clown" Davies, the most UNDER-rated lead guitarist in rock!

(but PLEASE STOP ME--THIS IS A BEATLES SITE--I DONT WANNA BE UNFAITHFUL TO THE FAB)  

funny you should mention death of a clown as that is one of the songs that comes to mind when i think of a few of lennons tracks on abbey road, from the lyrics to the chord changes it sounds very kinksy to me and then his voice sounds very different from his usual voice, slight london twang.


yeah i love the kinks theres even some days when i prefer them to the Beatles but i prefer the Beatles the other 300 days, he is a lyrical genius and there songs are so refreshing, i definitely think they sit second in my books.

On a cold and frosty morning, Wipe my eyes and stop me yawning.
And my feet are nearly frozen,Boil the tea and put some toast on.

Quoted from 829

not to mention Dave "Death of a Clown" Davies, the most UNDER-rated lead guitarist in rock!

(but PLEASE STOP ME--THIS IS A BEATLES SITE--I DONT WANNA BE UNFAITHFUL TO THE FAB)  

I would be MORE than happy to have a chat about The Kinks in the "other artists" forum (just playing Village Green as we speak!!!)

Quoted from The End

I would be MORE than happy to have a chat about The Kinks in the "other artists" forum (just playing Village Green as we speak!!!)

..or "Arthur"

Quoted from 829

..or "Arthur"

Young And Innocent Days nearly brings me to tears every time I hear it!

..and whenever i play my "Everybody's In Show Biz" cd (I had the vinyl of it back in 72) I can ONLY smile..
The Kinks always made me happy as hell...even though I know Ray's lyrics are often about the hard life of the working class, his whimsy & compassion always got to me. (I can almost hear "Celluloid Heroes" in my head right now !!..I'm not kidding--and I'm no where near my stereo at the moment!!)

but like I said, DONT START ME UP ABOUT THE KINKS--this is our BELOVED BEATLES site !!!!!

signed,

me--a muswell hillbilly in the USA

Quoted from The End

Young And Innocent Days nearly brings me to tears every time I hear it!

You softie!

I dont think John was to inspired by anything during Abbey Road.

Quoted from tkitna

I dont think John was to inspired by anything during Abbey Road.

Do you call "Come Together", "She's So Heavy"...AND his, Paul and George's PERFECT vocals on "Because" not being inspired by much  ??
(not to mention his contributions to Side II's "medley" Maybe you were listening to a different Abbey Road than I did... )(*shrugs*) (it was the "Get Back" sessions in EARLY '69 that he and the others were so famously discontented(subsequently to be renamed Let It Be) but by Spring of that same year they were fully enjoying the entire recording of Abbey Road together--it was like "old times".  John didnt get his wanderlust again until AFTER A.R. was complete. By September '69 he issued his "walking papers" in earnest. To say he was uninspired during the A. R. sessions is a myth.

Quoted from 829

..and whenever i play my "Everybody's In Show Biz" cd (I had the vinyl of it back in 72) I can ONLY smile..
The Kinks always made me happy as hell...even though I know Ray's lyrics are often about the hard life of the working class, his whimsy & compassion always got to me. (I can almost hear "Celluloid Heroes" in my head right now !!..I'm not kidding--and I'm no where near my stereo at the moment!!)

but like I said, DONT START ME UP ABOUT THE KINKS--this is our BELOVED BEATLES site !!!!!

signed,

me--a muswell hillbilly in the USA

Started a KINKS thread here: http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/b-othermusic/m-1189213652/

thx...checking THAT out next time I'm online in here

Quoted from 829

Do you call "Come Together", "She's So Heavy"...AND his, Paul and George's PERFECT vocals on "Because" not being inspired by much  ??

Lets see, a song spouting out needless drivel with no subject matter that plays off of being the poorest copy of 'I Am The Walrus' ever (Come Together), a song that is so repetitve that you have already listened to it after a minute into it (I Want You,,,,and thank god its almost 8 minutes long,,,sheesh), and a freaking song that I would bet my life on that Paul put together (Because). No not inspired at all.
(By the way,,,Sun King sucks too, but i do like the snippets of Polythene Pam and Mean Mr. Mustard. Should have been complete tunes.)

Quoted Text

Maybe you were listening to a different Abbey Road than I did... )

No,,,it was the same.

Quoted Text

(it was the "Get Back" sessions in EARLY '69 that he and the others were so famously discontented(subsequently to be renamed Let It Be) but by Spring of that same year they were fully enjoying the entire recording of Abbey Road together--it was like "old times".  John didnt get his wanderlust again until AFTER A.R. was complete. By September '69 he issued his "walking papers" in earnest. To say he was uninspired during the A. R. sessions is a myth.

Thanks for the history lesson and its no myth. He had crawled so far up into yoko's girl private by this time that its a miracle the album got done at all. Paul pleaded for the band to make this last ditch effort and its not hard to see that he did the majority of the work here. 'Old Times' my a**. John and Paul wasnt spending time by the pool and writing together, they still practicaly wrote their own tunes by themselves on this album (John just loved Maxwells Silver Hammer). Thank goodness they all four knew how much of a failure the Get Back sessions were and they decided to go out with a decent effort. Thanks Paul.

Quoted from 829

but by Spring of that same year they were fully enjoying the entire recording of Abbey Road together--it was like "old times".  

I don't think so. Apart from basic backing tracks, they were never all in the studio at the same time. In fact John remarked that the best thing to do with Abbey Road was to put all his songs on one side, and Paul's on the other!

Quoted from fendertele

a lot of his songs sound very ray davies like, songs like polythene pam and mean mr mustard?

But songs about quirky characters were all the rage.  Eleanor Rigby, SF Sorrow, Arnold Lane, Tommy. Maybe just John following a trend?

Quoted from tkitna

Thanks for the history lesson and its no myth.

you're welcome...  anytime. It's all in Paul's autobigraphy. He claims that Let It Be was the real hell, not A.R.

Unless macca was putting a more congenial face on things (which he was apt to do sometimes) I got this info from the horse's mouth not my imagination..
Unless of course John was inwardly sour from from L.I.B. and well into the Abbey Road sessions, the McCartney "spin" on the relative mood of the final record has something to do w/ his (macca's) "mother-hen" attitude of trying to keep the band together, I don't know--but I did read his account only--John wasnt giving many interviews during that period. If JL would've said more at the time, many fans would not hold this apparent misconception about the last LP-maybe Paul wasnt lying...perhaps he just saw things HIS way....possible.

Quoted from Kevin

But songs about quirky characters were all the rage.  Eleanor Rigby, SF Sorrow, Arnold Lane, Tommy. Maybe just John following a trend?

yes, but it never occurs to me the John would follow anyone else's trend--he was so original. It's very possible...but something tells me he would have wrote these ditties irregardless. He always took chances.

A tiny bit off topic here, perhaps, but 'Tomorrow Never Knows' seems faintly reminiscent of Ray's 'See My Friends', which came out first and was penned while visiting India. My whacky ear at it again, I suppose.

Quoted from tkitna

Paul pleaded for the band to make this last ditch effort and its not hard to see that he did the majority of the work here. 'Old Times' my a**.

I just took another gander at Anthology (DVD) and when they got to the section about the A. R. album, GEORGE f****** MARTIN HIMSELF says "it was a very happy album to make, that's why I'm very fond of it".

Ringo echoed those sentiments in that same Anthology segment.



your contention that John had "crawled so far up Yoko's ******" doesn't prove in the least a lesser degree of inspiration. If anything, a John Lennon in love was an even MORE inspired artist whether he felt constricted at that time in the Beatles or not...OR whether they recorded the songs separately...

Come Together, Polythene Pam, She's So Heavy, Mean Mr. Mustard, his perfect singing parts in Sun King & Because are fervent efforts, not musings of artistic discontent.


if John was so "uninspired" than why did he state several times in subsequent years that "Come Together" was one of his best songs ? The word-play is CLASSIC Lennon. Just because he was planning to depart the band around this time doesnt mean he wanted his final works to sound like crap. His contributions to A. R. is certifiable proof of the contrary. Many ppl would agree.

Quoted from 829

I just took another gander at Anthology (DVD) and when they got to the section about the A. R. album, GEORGE f****** MARTIN HIMSELF says "it was a very happy album to make, that's why I'm very fond of it".

What does that quote have to do with anything? So they were getting along better, that accounts for it being like 'Old Times'? They still werent collaborating on every tune together like they used to. It also doesnt break down who did the majority of the work. Did you ever stop to think that 'very happy' might have meant that John put up with Pauls taskmaster ways just to get this album out? Wasnt this album being made when Allan Klein had fucked everything up and the Beatles were bitter with each other about legal matters? Remember when Paul didnt sign the contract for Klein, but still participated in the band functions? Again, 'old times' my a**.

Quoted Text

if John was so "uninspired" than why did he state several times in subsequent years that "Come Together" was one of his best songs ?

Because he's weird. This coming from the same guy who gave us 'Two Virgins', 'Life With The Lions', and 'The Wedding Album'. Sorry, not a big fan of 'Come Together'.

Quoted Text

The word-play is CLASSIC Lennon. Just because he was planning to depart the band around this time doesnt mean he wanted his final works to sound like crap. His contributions to A. R. is certifiable proof of the contrary. Many ppl would agree.

I've given you my opinions on his contributions. Although they are my opinions, i'm sure many people would agree with them also.

Its obvious we dont see eye to eye about this and thats fine. I'm just stating that I feel Paul had much more input into this album than the rest of them. It might just be me, but thats how I feel. Also, I didnt mean that John was alright with his working sounding like crap. We know better than that. I just meant that if he was so into it, he could have at least finished most of the tunes instead of just giving us three or so snippets like he did.

This coming from the same guy who gave us 'Two Virgins', 'Life With The Lions', and 'The Wedding Album'.

Quoted Text

those are the worst pieces of junk Lennon ever "recorded" (or screamed, moaned his way through)

but that's POST Beatles. John was very melodic and poetic in his Beatle stuff.

Theres were recorded in 68'/69'

Quoted from tkitna

You:  "Because he's weird."

Me: "subjective...which is ok, but still subjective."



You: 'This coming from the same guy who gave us 'Two Virgins', 'Life With The Lions', and 'The Wedding Album'."

Me: "I happen to agree w/ that last comment those are the worst pieces of junk Lennon ever "recorded" (or screamed, moaned his way through)

but that's POST Beatles. John was very melodic and poetic in his Beatle stuff."



You:  "I've given you my opinions on his contributions. Although they are my opinions, i'm sure many people would agree with them also."

Me: "true".

You: "Its obvious we dont see eye to eye about this and thats fine. I'm just stating that I feel Paul had much more input into this album than the rest of them. It might just be me, but thats how I feel."

Me: "fair enough. Agree to disagree"

This coming from the same guy who gave us 'Two Virgins', 'Life With The Lions', and 'The Wedding Album'.

Quoted Text

those are the worst pieces of junk Lennon ever "recorded" (or screamed, moaned his way through)

but that's POST Beatles. John was very melodic and poetic in his Beatle stuff.

These were recorded in 68'/69'

nobody get the feeling that depending on maccas mood during recording that it would play a big part on the whole general mood ? it seems how controlling or picky or obsessive he was over how it should sound would rub of more on the other guys? more so than anything john and yoko were up to,.

If it wasn't for Paul's input, there would never have been an Abbey Road.

yeah i know paul was the driving force, i just meant the atmosphere surrounding the recording, before paul became the unofficial leader of the band there seem to be a little less tension, as john was acknowledge leader but wasnt as bossy or pushy as paul in the later years, so that also gave paul less to get frustrated or bossy about as it wasnt his place and in turn led to a happier george and ringo not getting pushed and told  what to play and how as much ?

Quoted from fendertele

yeah i know paul was the driving force, i just meant the atmosphere surrounding the recording, before paul became the unofficial leader of the band there seem to be a little less tension, as john was acknowledge leader but wasnt as bossy or pushy as paul in the later years, so that also gave paul less to get frustrated or bossy about as it wasnt his place and in turn led to a happier george and ringo not getting pushed and told  what to play and how as much ?

Sorry - I think that's wrong.
Up to 1966 they were busy touring and had to squeeze in recording dates. They were hardworking and highly motivated. I don't see John as a leader 62-66 anymore than Paul. They went into the studio knowing what sort of music they would make and what (very tight) deadlines they had to meet. If there was less tension then it was because the band had direction and purpose, from themselves, Martin and Epstein. There wasn't less tension then because John was a better leader, but because neither of them were leaders. They didn't need a band member to be one.

By the time of Abbey Road there was a vaccuum. Someone had to step up to the plate and take the lead, and it was Paul. It wasn't that John was "less bossy or pushy." Imagine John had decided to assert himself in 68 - you don't think his poltical vision, his desire to include Yoko, and his general way with people wouldn't have caused some stress and tension amongst that same group of people whose relationships were already fractured?

John never put himself in the position where he had to direct and motivate a bunch of dispirited, bored, antagonistic men. And when he could have he bottled it.

^^^^ good point

Quoted from tkitna

This coming from the same guy who gave us 'Two Virgins', 'Life With The Lions', and 'The Wedding Album'.



These were recorded in 68'/69'

you're correct, I meant extraneous-Beatles. Just like "How I Won The War", when John trapsed off to film that during the fab years also--or when Harrison made Wonderwall music as a side project as the first "Zapple" release, the relative artistic "worth" of a given piece is purely in the eye of the beholder.

*ALSO* I must confess John's early releases w/ Yoko I agree, should've never seen the light of day. I think Lennon  assumed the world would accept his experimental period w/ no resistance. They were atrocious works (endless heartbeat sounds plus the incessant "John?".."Yoko?" phrase over and over again.) This kind of "avant garde" should be visual rather than audio IMHO (many ppl were also opposed to his non-musical statements such as "Bagism"- which I thought was a fantastic way to call attention to the carnage in Vietnam. As far as the titles you cited above, I had all these albums at one time, but as I look back, I don't know why I purchased them (probably because of the historical (as opposed to aesthetic value of of the "Two Virgins" cover-which I bought off a friend who "couldn't bare to look  at John's c*ck another second", as he put it back in the early 70's.  But I do believe his true post-Beatle output (especially the first two LPs (P.O.B. and Imagine show great inspiration and brilliance--a brilliance I believe (unlike yourself) was present even in his A.R. material as well---but yes, I take your point, opinions can differ, which is perfectly ok.

I really don't think Lennon was inspired by the Kinks.
He never said anything & never really took notice of
much of a lot of the music scene during that time i reckon.
I think he just loved writing silly litttle ditty's!

I can see the comparison with the ditties from the medley - but Come Together, I Want You & Because are a totally different kettle of fish. All 3 are examples of why the Beatles were good for each other and why the split was wrong on so many levels. Would these three songs have been as great if they had been recorded by the Plastic Ono Band or Lennon solo? The arrangement of Because was a George Martin triumph, and Come Together & I Want You work so well because they are so very clearly loving what they are playing and each member added something vital to the mix with both songs representing high points for both Starr as a drummer & Macca as a bassist

I think John was mainly inspired by heroin and Yoko during this period.

Quoted from Mairi

I think John was mainly inspired by heroin and Yoko during this period.

"Ding Ding Ding",,,,,,,,,we have a winner.

Quoted from Mairi

I think John was mainly inspired by heroin and Yoko during this period.

And Chuck Berry of course. He almost stole Come Together!  

John was always trying to tap an altered state of consciousness to achieve creative thinking. It began with beer. Then on to the Vick inhaler strip that Royston Ellis introduced us too. Then on to Captogen and Preludin, then Transcendental Meditation, then LSD, then Primal Scream etc