Was John scared of Yoko ?

DaveRam

well, i am...

Quoted from komakino

well, i am...

Good thread Dave. I'm going to consider this very carefully before I pour more scorn on John.

Quoted from BlueMeanie

Good thread Dave. I'm going to consider this very carefully before I pour more scorn on John.

This is going to make my day.

She's mommy or mother...so I guess sometimes he was scared of her.

I see her more as an Aunt Mimi stand in. Older, cold, domineering - just what John wanted in a woman. Someone from whom he could constantly seek to gain approval, someone to tell him what to do and when to do it.
"John, I don't want you around anymore. Here's May Pang - piss off and shag her for awhile." John:"Yes mam."
"OK John you can come back now." John: "Oh can I? Pleeease."
Pathetic.

I started writing quite a long diatribe on this topic, but realised it wasn't the right thread for it. Sorry Kevin!

Most of John's life is dominated by women isn't it. First Julia, then Mimi - who, though loving, was a bit of a taskmaster, by all accounts. I think his recollections of his childhood come over as a bit flawed. The words to 'Mother' don't ring true at all.

The man clearly needed women in his life, so when Yoko came along it was his chance to get away from Cynthia without having to be on his own - which obviously scared him. Then he allows Yoko to influence him to an extent that it starts to have an effect on his 'day job'. I wonder if he actually knew what he was doing, or where he was going at that time. And thereafter he was hardly ever seen without her. I wouldn't say he was scared of her, I'd say he was subservient to women in general.

Agree Kevin with your analogy Yoko was an Aunt Mimi substitute ,and i think John was one of those men who liked a dominering women to take control, and boy did she do that .
She totally emasculated him , it was'nt a 50/50 relationship it was more 80/20 and Yoko treated him like a child ?
When you consider what a gob he had on him in the 60's and the way he slipped into the Kimono and her the trousers in the 70's it's a startling transformation i think ?
Young John would have said know you can't sing on my album women because you sound like a " Witch On Heat " ?
So i think he was totally scared of her and thats why he went to his grave a shadow of his former self ?

DaveRam

dont be silly

i dont know about the yoko thing but john did become very introverted and basically went from cheeky lad to quite the opposite what could have caused that ? drugs, depression, growing older ?

I think John was aware of his situation ,but was not sure what to do about it as BlueMeanie allude's to.
In the song " Scared " he sings " No bell book or candle can get you out of this oh no! (ONO ?) was he referring to been bewitched by his wife ?
Was this a referance to the 1958 film staring Kim Novak and James Stewart Bell Book and Candle about a witch who puts a spell on a man in order to marry him ?
Or am i just been silly  
Later on in the song he sings :

I'm tired I'm tired I'm tired
Of being so alone
No place to call my own
Like a rollin stone

I think he boxed himself into a cornner with this relationship and knew it  ?

DaveRam

In the film Bell Book and Candle Stewart walks into Novak's primitive art gallery and it's there she casts a love spell on him , ring any bells ?  

DaveRam

Was John Scared of Yoko?
==> Absolutely not.

Did John have a "special relationship" with Yoko where he wanted her to fill a certain role in his life, yes. But this is something he voluntarily did. To think he was scared of Yoko to me just sounds just silly.

Quoted from Kevin

I see her more as an Aunt Mimi stand in. Older, cold, domineering - just what John wanted in a woman. Someone from whom he could constantly seek to gain approval, someone to tell him what to do and when to do it.

Agree. And thats something you'd expect from a person with a childhood like John's. And I suppose that's why he was sort of growing colder towards Cyn as years went by.

Quoted from fendertele

i dont know about the yoko thing but john did become very introverted and basically went from cheeky lad to quite the opposite what could have caused that ? drugs, depression, growing older ?

Quoted from BlueMeanie

I wonder if he actually knew what he was doing, or where he was going at that time.

Probably he didnt. I suppose the drugs, depression, growing old, playing in the same old band it was all getting to him and when he sees the japanese artist and she becomes all mysterious to him and stuff, it turns him on... he found something new and from then on he is blinded by love (until a certain point in time). So she leads the way, rather than he does.

Quoted from BlueMeanie

I'd say he was subservient to women in general.

Yes, and being subservient (if i think that what i think it is right) will make one scared not to perform or please the "master" to the fullest. So i suppse John could have been thinking: "if I don't do what she wants, she'll leave me and then what...?" But come to think of that, i dont see John much caring what will happen to him. If he follows the advice he gave Sean "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans", then if he doesn't plan what happens next, then that's life, no? John was like Cassanova, going ahead with life and finding love on the way. He was more than that, though, wasn't he?

Quoted from 679

In the song " Scared " he sings " No bell book or candle can get you out of this oh no! (ONO ?) was he referring to been bewitched by his wife ?

Interesting. Could be right, but then again anytime John sing oh no! in his songs we may think its an ONO refrence... But if it is true, it sort of emphasizes the idea that he was scared of her. Perhaps not all the time but at some times, certainly.


So I'd say that he was scared of her in the begining and he didn't want to show it, so thats why they were inseparatable... Or maybe he was scared of himself, you know, if he saw that he is capabale of leaving and accusing his wife and child maybe he could do it again and he wouldn't want to be a man with such a reputation. So he let Yoko control him, so that he wouldnt do anything, he'll regret... that's just a thought

Do you reckon, with time passing by, he would have left Yoko?

*By the way, you have an excellent choice of words BlueMeanie  *

Some very interesting speculation and opinions in this thread , and i accept thats all it can be fans on the outside looking in . I should point out that i quite like Yoko even though i have said she's a witch   but i'm not saying anything that she herself does'nt have fun with , her last album was called  " I am The Witch "
Yoko as been an important part of The Beatles storey and i would'nt have it anyother way , there all such an odd and fascinating bunch of people thats why i'm a fan
I don't think it's silly to ask the question was John scared of Yoko ? as my mum always tells me if you don't ask you will never know , so silly or not i will always ask questions .
The thing that as always puzzled me about John is the cooling of his creative output , i just find it interesting .
So if he was'nt scared of Yoko ? which i think he was ,what was he scared of , you don't pen a song about it if everything is hunky dory ?

DaveRam

I think it's important when talking about "the cooling of John's creative output" to remember that he was very active outside the band. Three "experimental" albums, a live album and three singles. He was very busy and creative, it was just that his energies had been deflected outside of The Beatles.
That was the point of my other thread about Cold Turkey. If they had accomodated John (regardless of how un-Beatle his work was. They accomodated George's Indian fetish without disastrous results) his energies may have remained within the band.

I don't think John Lennon is scared of anything.

I agree with DSL. John was not a timorous person. He was wounded, adrift at times, desperately compensating-- but he would smack down Yoko if she annoyed him, which she occasionally did. (I don't mean physically, just cut her off at the pass and stop her cold. There's enough evidence of this in the Imagine outtakes.)

I think it isn't odd for a person to look for outside influence to give shape to one's life. One of the easiest ways of doing this is your job. People often define themselves in terms of what they do. "I'm a writer" banker, whatever. Don't know what to do in the morning? No problem, the boss has it all worked out-- and will let you know pretty quick if you don't do it! No real choices, just compliance, and complaining if you feel like it (or conversely, feeling happy because it's a project you believe in; either way, it's defined for you).

John was a lot of things: musician, composer, artist, author, youth leader, fashion influence-- the list goes on. With so many options open, it's hard to pick a direction. It's a lot easier to let an opinionated person do it for you. "Today we will call people on the phone and tell them we love them." "Okay!"

It seems to me that what you see as motivated by fear is to me motivated by lack of motivation! It's hard to pick a direction in life, and easy to question if you made the right choice. It's very convenient to have an outside force telling you what to do. So what John had with Yoko doesn't strike me as the least bit mysterious. I just wish Yoko had been less self-involved and generous enough to help John find his direction in his music-- but she always wanted to share in that limelight, and music was not her gift, IMO.

I think if John had wanted to get out of the relationship, he would have.

I believe that as well.... I think harihead summed it up pretty good.....

I also agree with you Dark Sweet Lady and harihead. I'm almost sure he wasn't scared of Yoko or the ex Beatles.

It's not always easy to get out of a relationship thats not good for you ?
And i'm not sure i would have wanted John to leave Yoko , what i wanted to see was a seperation of there creative union . One husband and wife project is ok , but having her " Spoil " your records time and again was not what i wanted to hear ?

DaveRam

Quoted from Flaming Pie in the Sky

I think if John had wanted to get out of the relationship, he would have.

John was never a loner. He would have only left her for someone else.

If John Lennon wasn't a singer in a rock and roll band, I would have loved to have seen him carting Yoko Ono to his day job at IBM.

A small bump to this thread, but I read someting last night that reminded me of the discussion here...

Its a quote from Sam Leach : "John was a bit shy - that's why women used to dominate him"

Didn't John try to leave Yoko and be with May Pang only to ditch May to go back to Yoko? He would always go back to Yoko regardless IMO.

I think the whole "I don't think John was afraid of anything" quote is a bit silly. You're making him out to be something like a fearless hero who conquers evil. If anything, he was the most vunerable Beatle. Being alone probably scared him the most. John had to have some sort of guidance in his life and Yoko gave that to him. He probably wasn't afraid of Yoko, just afraid to be without her. She was definitely domineering. John needed a motherly figure in his life. May Pang seems like too much of a pushover and thats probably why John didn't stay with her.

Only a robot can`t be afraid of anything.
I have been thinking recently of the idea you mentioned in your post, Wordno - that John was vulnerable, that is true, I think. On the one hand he had these leadership qualities and used to be an idol for boys in Liverpool, kind of being above them. On the other hand he desperately needed a soul-partner and hated loneliness. That`s why he left Cynthia, who he didn`t love (and I think had never loved), cause they were absolutely different people and he didn`t feel any bond to her, first of all emotional and intellectual. When he met Yoko he was overwhelmed how much alike they were. She was intellectual, radical, unusual, exotic, and I think very emotional. Like no other woman had been. "I had no doubt, I`d met the One," he said later. He wasn`t lonely any more.
But I don`t think he needed guidance, this is not true. He had been guiding himself and others all his life! So this idea of Yoko being as mother to him is nonsense. She was his equal, his true equal and he was impressed. It`s like it was with Paul. When John met him he was impressed. Maybe he even felt threatened by Paul`s talent but he asked him to join the band. It was not often that John met equals. So he sincerely fell in love with Yoko. Certainly he wasn`t afraid of Yoko but was connected to her by all these bonds. May Pang was just an ordinary girl. Yoko knew who to give to John for him to stay for a WHILE with.

"Also, someone claimed that at the time of his murder, John was about to start the process of divorcing her."

I read that somewhere. Does anyone know if that was true?
I hate to join the conversation and not really read what was going on, but is this true? I mean, I've never heard it, but apparantly, someone has.

Quoted from freakchic9

"Also, someone claimed that at the time of his murder, John was about to start the process of divorcing her."

I read that somewhere. Does anyone know if that was true?
I hate to join the conversation and not really read what was going on, but is this true? I mean, I've never heard it, but apparantly, someone has.

I doubt very much that John was planning to divorce Yoko. It would have made the whole 'Double Fantasy' symbology meaningless. Besides, John didn't strike me as a man in the middle of a marriage breakdown in the interviews given at the time of his death.

I dunno but i know there's something in her that makes her look a bit creepy to me no offense but i'm afraid of her.

It's not even like she could blackmail him with his knob size, I mean, we'd all seen it on two virgins.

But...

There were photos of John, Yoko and someone she was close with, pictured at some ball game or something, i'll have to dig the pic and report out.

As for May Pang, that was Yoko's idea, he was pushed to her and summoned back.