Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Forum Login
Login Name: Create a new account
Password:     Forgot password

DM's Beatles forums    Beatles forums    The Beatles  ›  the death of Brian Epstein did a lot of harm... Moderators: Sandra, BlueMeanie, harihead

the death of Brian Epstein did a lot of harm...  This thread currently has 833 views. Print
2 Pages 1 2 » All Recommend Thread
Buttmunker
October 6, 2007, 1:15am Report to Moderator
Getting Better
Posts
301
Posts Per Day
0.65
Brian Epstein died after Sgt Pepper came out.  John Lennon was right when he said, "I knew that we were in trouble then ... I thought, 'We've fuckin' had it!'"  

I'm not saying that the death of Epstein caused utter failure, because we all know that they put out brilliant music until the very end.  However, despite his faults as a manager, he still for the most part was good for the boys.  

He may have prevented the following:

01: opening a boutique (or, at the very least, hiring competent staff to run the place)
02: Yoko Ono from intruding in the studio (Brian would have talked to John alone and persuaded him)
03: Magical Mystery Tour - the TV show (he would have strenuously advised the boys against it, and instead suggest another venue to explore)

I know Brian had little to no control over what happened in the studio (that was George Martin's business, not his), but I'm confident that Let It Be wouldn't have been the stressful ordeal it was.  Brian's job was to make sure, above all else, that the Beatles were happy.  The Beatles sessions in Twink studios were not ideal for them - with cameras shoved in their faces, it likely caused them to be more abrasive with one another than necessary.  Brian would have taken one look at the environment and called a halt to it.  Brian cared about them, and despite his failings with Deals and Ownership Rights, etc, he was a good manager in the way that he took pride in making sure the boys were in the ideal situation at all times.

Prior to his death, the Beatles were happy and harmonious.  It's pretty ironic that after his death they started getting resentful of one another.

Brian Epstein was the glue that kept the Beatles together.  Once Brian died, the glue slowing started to dissolve, until finally...they broke apart.
Logged Offline
E-mail Private Message
Kaleidoscope_Eyes
October 6, 2007, 8:15am Report to Moderator

We follow the sun
Words Of Love
Posts
2,478
Gender
Female
Posts Per Day
3.78
Quoted from Buttmunker
Prior to his death, the Beatles were happy and harmonious.  It's pretty ironic that after his death they started getting resentful of one another.

well, when they were young they sort of were new to all the music and recording and "the big world" and so they saw success (with the help of Brian) so they gave all they could- which made them happy and harmonious. And then when Brian died... it was like "what do we do now?" And obviously everyone had different ideas which led to resentfulness to one another.

Perhaps if they would have gotten another manager, or rather someone else would have approached them and show interest in them first, then maybe... well, we won't say they would have been better, but they may have not done the things on your list, Buttmunker.

I have always admired Brian. Especially after reading Cellerful of Noise (recommended!). He just loved them so much and gave them all he could... loved them till death do them part, eh?

Quoted from Buttmunker
Brian Epstein was the glue that kept the Beatles together.  Once Brian died, the glue slowing started to dissolve, until finally...they broke apart.

Yes. A glue they kept sniffing and when it went away, it just went to their heads... jokies!  


Please visit Albert's Awsome Adventures at Better Than TV .... it's Better Than TV!
Logged Offline
Site E-mail Private Message Reply: 1 - 16
harihead
October 6, 2007, 4:50pm Report to Moderator

Keep spreading the love
Board Moderator
Posts
2,139
Gender
Female
Posts Per Day
3.13
I think Brian's days with the band were numbered, because the band was wising up. When they started, no one had experienced anything like what the Beatles became. But afterwards, after the notion of "rock stars" had been established, some precedents existed for bands (as opposed to "stars", which is what I consider Presley, for example).

Also, after touring stopped, the Beatles had the luxury of finding out about their finances for the first time. Brian was taking 25% off the top. All his Beatles-related expenses were deducted from the Beatles part of the pay, and he lived high on the hog. Paul had started looking into this, and I think he would have quickly figured out that, whereas most managers took a 15% cut and deducted their expenses from that portion, Brian was basically milking the Beatles by making this outrageous deal when they were still ignorant wanna-be's. (Brian's own lawyer told Brian what the deal he was making was nonstandard, but since Brian said the Beatles were happy, the guy drew it up.)

But the Beatles weren't starry-eyed kids any more; they had access to legal advice and friends who were pointing out that what Brian was doing was just not right or justifiable. As long as money was coming in-- brown bag money from tours, their royalties, etc.-- they had no reason to question what was going on. But when they slowed down they started running into trouble, and I think Brian's death came just before the discovery they would have made that would have made them very angry indeed. Because music was more a job at that point, and they wanted to be compensated fairly for their work. These bungled contracts and bad percentages came to light soon after Brian's death, and would have been discovered soon anyway.

I don't mean to minimize what Brian did in terms of breaking the Beatles to a mass audience. He absolutely deserves praise for seeing their potential and marketing them well, and his dogged loyalty in getting them that recording contract. But I don't think the Beatles would have carried on happily for more than a few months, because when it came time to renegotiate their contracts, they would have had a thing or two to say about Brian's management.

Let's suppose they worked that all out. They weren't angry about losing vast percentages over the years-- all water under the bridge! (Somehow I don't see John or Paul deciding this, but let's pretend.) What would the Beatles have done regarding Buttmunker's examples:

01: opening a boutique (or, at the very least, hiring competent staff to run the place) - Brian's choice of staff was based on friends he knew, same as the Beatles. His business acumen was not a highly honed machine. I don't see any improvement there.

02: Yoko Ono from intruding in the studio (Brian would have talked to John alone and persuaded him) - I'm not sure why you think John would listen to Brian and not the other Beatles. John hated Brian to say anything about the studio environment.

03: Magical Mystery Tour - the TV show (he would have strenuously advised the boys against it, and instead suggest another venue to explore) - I think Brian would have assisted the whole thing by doing what he was very good at doing-- booking the studios, arranging travel plans, and so on. I think the project would have gone much more smoothly with Brian's assistance, and therefore would have been less stressful for everyone involved.

04: I'm confident that Let It Be wouldn't have been the stressful ordeal it was. - Perhaps Brian might have had some influence here, simply because none of the Beatles except Paul was ready to go back to recording again--let alone being filmed. But I'd have to think further about what was going on with John at this time. If he'd still gotten into heroine, there's not much anyone could have done with him, Paul or Brian.


All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007

For all I know, Ringo might be a yogi disguised as a drummer! - George Harrison
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 2 - 16
Andy Smith
October 6, 2007, 10:16pm Report to Moderator

Words Of Love
Posts
3,520
Posts Per Day
5.59
Looking at some of the Anthology recently, it did make me wonder that
he wasen't a terrific manager by anybody's standards!
one fact is that George Martin told him that the second session they did for
Abbey Road, he would include a drummer.  but then Ringo joined the band &
thught he would be playing on that audition. and obviously Brian never said
or organized anything? you think he would have told Martin the arrangment.



HAPPY 40TH BIRTHDAY TO THE WHITE ALBUM! you say its your birthday!
Logged Offline
E-mail Private Message Windows Live Messenger Reply: 3 - 16
BlueMeanie
October 7, 2007, 9:42am Report to Moderator

Board Moderator
Posts
6,371
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
8.46
Quoted from harihead
I think Brian's days with the band were numbered, because the band was wising up. When they started, no one had experienced anything like what the Beatles became. But afterwards, after the notion of "rock stars" had been established, some precedents existed for bands (as opposed to "stars", which is what I consider Presley, for example).

Also, after touring stopped, the Beatles had the luxury of finding out about their finances for the first time. Brian was taking 25% off the top. All his Beatles-related expenses were deducted from the Beatles part of the pay, and he lived high on the hog. Paul had started looking into this, and I think he would have quickly figured out that, whereas most managers took a 15% cut and deducted their expenses from that portion, Brian was basically milking the Beatles by making this outrageous deal when they were still ignorant wanna-be's. (Brian's own lawyer told Brian what the deal he was making was nonstandard, but since Brian said the Beatles were happy, the guy drew it up.)


They had a truly awful deal with him. 25% of everything. Everything. That's including record sales, publishing royalties, and merchandising. He earned more than they did. Some of his merchandising deals were terrible; they were earning practically nothing from them. It seemed that he was an expert at getting a good deal for himself, but not so expert in other areas.

Quoted from harihead

03: Magical Mystery Tour - the TV show (he would have strenuously advised the boys against it, and instead suggest another venue to explore) - I think Brian would have assisted the whole thing by doing what he was very good at doing-- booking the studios, arranging travel plans, and so on. I think the project would have gone much more smoothly with Brian's assistance, and therefore would have been less stressful for everyone involved.

04: I'm confident that Let It Be wouldn't have been the stressful ordeal it was. - Perhaps Brian might have had some influence here, simply because none of the Beatles except Paul was ready to go back to recording again--let alone being filmed. But I'd have to think further about what was going on with John at this time. If he'd still gotten into heroine, there's not much anyone could have done with him, Paul or Brian.


I think he, or basically any competent manager would have made a difference with MMT. Whether it would have been for the better, I'm not sure. I've always thought MMT was a wonderful piece of chaotic, psychedelic tomfoolery. A decent manger would have organised things more, leading to far less chaos. He'd have made sure their was a proper script for each days shooting etc. He'd have had a schedule. Though it probably would have ended up being something the public found more digestible, it would have lost its anarchic appeal.

I'm undecided about Let It Be. Possibly Brian - or once again, any competent manager - could have made a difference by just being there at Twickenham. For instance you can hear how well behaved they become when George brings in Billy Preston. A manager could possibly have advised them to wait a month or two as well. Though I'm not sure that at that time they would have taken anyone else's advice.







I just want you to reassure him - talk to him, make him see the error of his ways. Then I'll hit him.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 4 - 16
Buttmunker
October 7, 2007, 4:14pm Report to Moderator
Getting Better
Posts
301
Posts Per Day
0.65
Quoted from harihead

01: opening a boutique (or, at the very least, hiring competent staff to run the place) - Brian's choice of staff was based on friends he knew, same as the Beatles. His business acumen was not a highly honed machine. I don't see any improvement there.

Brian was a successful record store owner, and brought his family's store to famous success.  I think the same would have been said for Apple.



Logged Offline
E-mail Private Message Reply: 5 - 16
harihead
October 7, 2007, 5:05pm Report to Moderator

Keep spreading the love
Board Moderator
Posts
2,139
Gender
Female
Posts Per Day
3.13
Brian did do very well with his record stores. His business ventures after he became the Beatles' manager were less successful. Correct me if I'm leaving something out-- his car business was basically a "buy cars wholesale for your friends" deal that soon went under, NEMS was run by his friends and acquaintances (just as Apple was afterwards)-- I don't know what he would have brought to Apple that would have been so different from the Beatles' approach. He would have just been a layer of insulation--which the Beatles liked and appreciated. Artists often hate the business aspects, and the Beatles certainly did as well.  

For all their dealings, Brian liked to make sure that he was the key point. That's why the Beatles had no idea who was even in NEMS until after Brian passed. But Brian was increasingly unreliable due to his chemical dependencies; his employees could hardly get their work done, because Brian was AWOL so often. Until he got help for his chemical dependency, and perhaps changed his business style to delegate to his staff, I don't see how he would have improved upon the Beatles' homegrown business approach. There's a big difference between being good at stocking records and running a giant corporation.


All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007

For all I know, Ringo might be a yogi disguised as a drummer! - George Harrison
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 6 - 16
pc31
October 7, 2007, 5:15pm Report to Moderator

rockabilly rules!!!!!
Special Member
Posts
9,184
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
5.25
brian was against sargent peppers......so he wasn't good at choosing their direction anymore...


Logged Offline
Site E-mail Private Message AIM YIM Windows Live Messenger Reply: 7 - 16
JimmyMcCullochFan
October 8, 2007, 2:11am Report to Moderator

Wino Junko
Words Of Love
Posts
1,405
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
2.44
Quoted from pc31
brian was against sargent peppers......so he wasn't good at choosing their direction anymore...


how was Brian against Sgt. Pepper?


"Wings IV introduced Jimmy McCulloch, a spunky lead guitarist with grit, able to spur Paul on unlike any previous soloist. His debut track, the magnificent single `Junior's Farm', stands as one of Wings' finest emotional and technical releases."

"Few people on this planet know as much about Jimmy's musical history than you."

"I'm Joe English and I'm from Glasgow, Scotland." xD


Logged Offline
E-mail Private Message Reply: 8 - 16
BlueMeanie
October 8, 2007, 9:12am Report to Moderator

Board Moderator
Posts
6,371
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
8.46
Quoted from JimmyMcCullochFan


how was Brian against Sgt. Pepper?


I'm not sure he was against it, I just don't think he liked it. This is a man who was brought up with classical music, remember. He enjoyed the energy of The Beatles earlier records, probably without actually liking the music. I think he just didn't understand Pepper.


I just want you to reassure him - talk to him, make him see the error of his ways. Then I'll hit him.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 9 - 16
sewi
October 8, 2007, 10:40am Report to Moderator

Life is short
Getting Better
Posts
355
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
0.53
I have read that Brian did not want that Pepper album cover but he did liked the album itself.


And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 10 - 16
Kevin
October 8, 2007, 10:52am Report to Moderator

Words Of Love
Posts
4,369
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
3.08
Honestly I don't see either the Apple Botique or the MMT telly movie as crucial points in their career. They really are nothing but footnotes and hardly symptomatic of the real rot setting in.
To make a difference a manager (any manager) would have to keep them busy and focused within the band. That probably meant touring. Would The Stones have survived Jones's death, the busts and arguements if they hadn't gone back on the road?
I think Eppy had lost the band the moment they stopped touring. That was the crucial moment, not Epsteins death. He was already sidelined and I think he knew it.


don't follow leaders
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 11 - 16
BlueMeanie
October 8, 2007, 11:00am Report to Moderator

Board Moderator
Posts
6,371
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
8.46
Quoted from Kevin
Honestly I don't see either the Apple Botique or the MMT telly movie as crucial points in their career. They really are nothing but footnotes and hardly symptomatic of the real rot setting in.
To make a difference a manager (any manager) would have to keep them busy and focused within the band. That probably meant touring. Would The Stones have survived Jones's death, the busts and arguements if they hadn't gone back on the road?
I think Eppy had lost the band the moment they stopped touring. That was the crucial moment, not Epsteins death. He was already sidelined and I think he knew it.


Well, he had a lot less to do. His other main acts were mostly from the Merseybeat era, and hadn't developed out of it. I always loved MMT, and as I said before, Brian would have organised things better, to the detriment of it's charm, and anarchic qualities. His main thing was to get them a contarct, and organise tours. Once that was done with he had nothing left.


I just want you to reassure him - talk to him, make him see the error of his ways. Then I'll hit him.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 12 - 16
Buttmunker
October 8, 2007, 3:44pm Report to Moderator
Getting Better
Posts
301
Posts Per Day
0.65
Quoted from Kevin
Honestly I don't see either the Apple Botique or the MMT telly movie as crucial points in their career. They really are nothing but footnotes and hardly symptomatic of the real rot setting in.


But the Apple Boutique was a failure, and this caused a lot of undue stress within the group.  

As far as MMT is concerned, Brian would have made sure the show was broadcast in color the first time - not on Boxing Day, where it was shown in Black-n-white.  The difference might have caused less criticism.
Logged Offline
E-mail Private Message Reply: 13 - 16
Bobber
October 8, 2007, 5:44pm Report to Moderator

Administrator
Posts
8,120
Posts Per Day
6.39
Quoted from Buttmunker


But the Apple Boutique was a failure, and this caused a lot of undue stress within the group.  

As far as MMT is concerned, Brian would have made sure the show was broadcast in color the first time - not on Boxing Day, where it was shown in Black-n-white.  The difference might have caused less criticism.


I don't think The Beatles really cared for the boutique. It was just part of the whole Apple failure

I think as far as Brian Epstein was concerned, Magical Mystery Tour would never have happened. That is not in the chaotic way it was made.
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Reply: 14 - 16
2 Pages 1 2 » All Recommend Thread
Print

DM's Beatles forums    Beatles forums    The Beatles  ›  the death of Brian Epstein did a lot of harm...

DM's Beatles site - Top 100 Beatles sites

Powered by E-Blah Forum Software 10.3.5 © 2001-2008