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DM's Beatles forums    Solo forums    John Lennon  ›  Was JL born in an air raid? Moderators: Sandra, BlueMeanie

Was JL born in an air raid?  This thread currently has 307 views. Print
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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 9:56am Report to Moderator

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"John Lennon was born to the sound of Hitler's bombs in Liverpool on the night of October 9th 1940." from Lennon.net
Found this while researching something else (I don't go looking for John Lennon stories). If you can't be arsed reading the whole thing there's a summary at the end.
http://liverpoolbeatlescene.com/air.html


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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 12:10pm Report to Moderator

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Interesting and well written article. I'm a bit of a WWII buff, so I did a quick bit of research.

First of all, German strategic bombing raids during daylight halted in the early part of 1940, due to heavy casualties on the German side. Any German plane flying over Liverpool in daylight hours in October of 1940 would have either been lost (common), or on some kind of suicidal recon. mission. Therefore the big 'giveaway' of this myth is that Lennon was born at 6.30pm. As Britain had been put on BDST (British Double Summer Time) Liverpool would still have been bathed in sunlight until about 10PM. Therefore it's very, very unlikely that Lennon was born during an air raid. And as The Echo does not report a raid on that night, I'd conclude that it's one of those myth's that grows over time, like famous 'cockney's' being born within the sound of Bow Bells.


I just want you to reassure him - talk to him, make him see the error of his ways. Then I'll hit him.
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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 12:26pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BlueMeanie
Interesting and well written article. I'm a bit of a WWII buff, so I did a quick bit of research.




Excellent! So am I. The eastern front was my big thing for awhile, but now I'm transfixed by the Fall Of France. A bit like with The Beatles I began thinking "how the f*ck did that happen?"
Now I'm quite convinced about this Blitzkreig myth thing  - that the concept of a new style of warfare was an allied invention to explain their awful defeat. That the German invasions of Poland and France were basically conventional in nature, and that the real "revolutions" were the German use of radio (which allowed co-ordinated actions) and German Officer training - which gave Guiderian and Rommel the initiative to disobey orders and push on to the channel, whereas if a French or British officer  had been ordered to stop they would do exactly that.
Any thoughts? (I've been wanting to talk about this with someone for so long, but people on WW11 forums are really intimidating.)


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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 12:45pm Report to Moderator

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It's true, German officers do seem to have been given the power of initiative, always accepting the fact that if you got it wrong you'd probably be shot! A British officer would be trained to never disobey orders. That just wouldn't be British. The Germans use of radio definitely gave them an edge for a while, as did the Allied use of radar, especially during the Battle Of Britain.

I imagine that WWII forums could be a bit intimidating. I expect that they are a little bit too 'amateur academic', and come down hard on you if you get something wrong. A bit like the 'Beatlelinks' forum!


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 12:47pm Report to Moderator

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More on that (sorry - I need to get this off my chest)
1) That the Germans would attempt a quick overwhelming victory was no secret - it was accepted military doctrine and had been their tactic in both 1870 and 1914. The German attack in 1940 was on a broadfront with mostly infantry, just as it had been in 1914.
2) Mass use of tanks - most generals, German included, doubted their worth - on their own they were too vulnerable to attacks and breakdown and were a nightmare to supply. Guideran had been ordered to stop after crossing the Muese, but disobeyed those orders after wrangling permission to "reconnoitre in force."
3) Maginot Line - much is made of the French WW1 Wall mentality v German WW11 attack mentality. But Germany had built her own defensive line and no one bangs on about that. The French plan was never to hold the frontier with fortifications - its point was to allow it to be guarded with as little manpower as possible so the reserve could counter the main point of attack. Failure to do this rather obvious thing was their real mistake.
4) Airpower - using the airforce purely as tactical support for the army was new. But in itself not enough to brand this somekind of new warfare. A nice touch , but caught them out when they tried to use it as a stategic arm (ie Battle of Britain.)


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 12:49pm Report to Moderator

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I'll stop now.


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 12:55pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BlueMeanie
It's true, German officers do seem to have been given the power of initiative, always accepting the fact that if you got it wrong you'd probably be shot!


It's certainly an incentive. The captain of The Bismarck is often criticised for not disobeying orders and engaging the Prince Of Wales. As long as it produced success you were okay.


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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 1:06pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kevin
More on that (sorry - I need to get this off my chest)
4) Airpower - using the airforce purely as tactical support for the army was new. But in itself not enough to brand this somekind of new warfare. A nice touch , but caught them out when they tried to use it as a stategic arm (ie Battle of Britain.)


They went on 'free runs' in an attempt to draw out RAF fighters, still not realising that the British had radar to detect them early. Quite amusing really, when you consider how far advanced from us the Germans were in other areas.


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 1:14pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BlueMeanie


They went on 'free runs' in an attempt to draw out RAF fighters, still not realising that the British had radar to detect them early. Quite amusing really, when you consider how far advanced from us the Germans were in other areas.


And I read that after the initial attacks on radar stations failed to shut the system down the Germans presumed the guts of it were buried in impenetrable bunkers (which is what they would have done) so called the attacks off,when in fact (as you know) the whole thing was a bunch of WAAF's in nissen huts. So british and so german.
My mum was a WAAF (joined late 41). I've sent off for her records - hope she did something glamorous.


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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 1:46pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Kevin

My mum was a WAAF (joined late 41). I've sent off for her records - hope she did something glamorous.


My mother was too young, and was evacuated to Wales. Her sister joined the WAAF at the beginning of the war though. I don't think she did anything more glamorous than serve tea, and comfort people. Where do you send off for records? She's 90 next year, and lives in Cincinnati. It might make a good pressie.


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Bobber
November 2, 2007, 1:50pm Report to Moderator

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It's been denied before. You got to admit that the legend is more vivid with the story of the life of John Lennon, the man of peace, starting with an air raid. But as Paul pointed out, it's been proven before that it is not true.
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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 1:58pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from Bobber
It's been denied before. You got to admit that the legend is more vivid with the story of the life of John Lennon, the man of peace, starting with an air raid. But as Paul pointed out, it's been proven before that it is not true.


Well, it could be possible that a stray German plane dropped a bomb within earshot of the hospital. But it would certainly have been reported, as the raid the day before, and the day after were. Apparently I was born in the middle of the worst thunder storm London had seen for about 10 years. Lightning hit the hospital twice. Does that make me the Devil?


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 2:18pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BlueMeanie


My mother was too young, and was evacuated to Wales. Her sister joined the WAAF at the beginning of the war though. I don't think she did anything more glamorous than serve tea, and comfort people. Where do you send off for records? She's 90 next year, and lives in Cincinnati. It might make a good pressie.


It's  a bit convoluted. Write to:
RAF Personnel Management Agency
RAF Innsworth
Gloucester GL3 1EZ

They will send you a form, which you must return with 30 pounds. They don't guarantee any search, but all feedback is good.



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BlueMeanie
November 2, 2007, 2:21pm Report to Moderator

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Thanks. Let's hope she doesn't pop off before her birthday!!


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Kevin
November 2, 2007, 4:55pm Report to Moderator

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Quoted from BlueMeanie


My mother was too young, and was evacuated to Wales.


Phew. Living in Wales or being bombed by the Luftwaffe? It's a tough call.


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