Quoted from Joost

If God is perfect (which He obviously must be if He created everything), than it shouldn't be a problem for Him to give us humans a clear set of rules that we can work with.

This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

Quoted from tkitna

This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

The Ten Commandments too have been passed through for thousands of years with the risk of being distorted by humans along the way. And there's absolute proof that this happened, as there are currently four versions of the Ten Commandments (Jewish, Angelican/Reformed, Orthodox, Roman Catholic/Lutheran).

Quoted from Jane

The interpretation is correct. These are 2 ancient cities in the Middle East, which were destroyed by God as a punishment for the immoral sexual behavior of their people, shocking and homosexual. The story implies that, If people practise sodomy the world will go to the dogs, no kids will be born, no each sexes` nature will be emphasized. all will become just one sex, kindda neuter. Hard to say if it`s a woman or a man- unisex. Unisex is the banner of our times, the world is becoming colourless, dull, monotonous. Who likes it?

So this is the God about 'forgiveness' and 'whoever is free of sins throws the first stone'. Too many people have been killed in the name of whatever God. In my opinion, not many good things have come out of religion. But if it's your thing and would like to give your life meaning with it, you have my blessing (for what it's worth). Problem is that followers of some religions are trying to convince non-followers that something terrible is going to happen if they don't believe in a certain God or holy book. I haven't turned my back on anyone who came to bring love to my life or my house, gay or straight. Your belief says I will probably burn in hell or turn into a pile of salt. My belief says I will die one day and we'll see after that. Your belief says I'm living in sin, because I'm living with a woman and am not married to her. I have a certain feeling of what is right and wrong, what is fair and not. I believe and trust that feeling and it is not related to one religion. Well, maybe my one and only true self religion living in my mind and soul. And I won't try to convince you to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you to read certain books or stories. Oh, one exception, don't believe Bob Spitz' Beatles biography.  

Quoted from Bobber

Problem is that followers of some religions are trying to convince non-followers that something terrible is going to happen if they don't believe in a certain God or holy book.

Yeah, that's always the best way of getting control over people. Step 1: scare the living daylights out of them. Step 2: make them believe that only you can save them. Most religions (and wars) started that way.

This is so frustrating to me. I'm not even a religious person, but a lot of us here are getting our facts wrong or mixing them up altogether. My point being, if you're going to criticize something at least know what you're criticizing. Same goes for using religion as an excuse to justify why you don't accept certain behaviors such as homosexuality.

If you actually read these texts, you'll find there IS no justification for violence and hatred of any kind. You'll find it's about love and peace and accepting others. It's mankind who f*cks it up. And if they didn't have religion to use as an excuse to cause violence then they'd use something else and you all know it. It is the nature of man. Plain and simple.

Religion isn't the cause of wars, it's mans desire for POWER. It always has been and it always will be. For me, anyone who says nothing good ever came from religion is in the same camp as those who say you'll burn in hell if you don't believe. There's no way anything is that simple. That's way too much of a generalization and there's nothing to back either of those statements it if you choose to REALLY look at history, look at what's written in these religious works, and look at the behavior of mankind. Both statements can and have been easily contradicted. On this very own thread in fact. Which of course people ignore because it doesn't suit their current beliefs. So instead we talk in circles!

Religion has it's place in our history same as anything else. Do you all think abolishing it would solve all of our problems? Right. What causes war? Well, lets see, usually, it is about power and money. Unscrupulous leaders will try to make it about something more meaningful. Like say...religion. Look closely though. That's hardly ever what it's really about.

Okay, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk or whatever. Not trying to come off that way. I'm not trying to insult or offend anybody. I'm just trying to look at this in the most logical way. That's how I make sense of things. I certainly won't mind being proved wrong on anything I post. It's how we learn anyway. BTW, I think this has been a great discussion overall.

Quoted from tkitna

This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

Absolutely nothing written on these tablets of stone from God , about Homosexuality and that's good enough for me

Quoted from DaveRam

Absolutely nothing written on these tablets of stone from God , about Homosexuality and that's good enough for me

That was the other tablet that Moses dropped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE&feature=related

Quoted from tkitna

That was the other tablet that Moses dropped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE&feature=related

Very funny Todd really liked that , but i think  my argument about God Been indifferent about homosexuality is pretty rock solid ?

I think it's great that we're discussing such heavy topics here and that we've already reached page 12 without any hostilities to speak of. Excellent!

Quoted from DaveRam

Very funny Todd really liked that , but i think  my argument about God Been indifferent about homosexuality is pretty rock solid ?

You very well might be right DaveRam. I'm probably sinning by having my own opinion on the topic, but I really dont believe i'll ever change my mind. Besides all the hoopla we've already discussed, I have to throw one other thing out there. Maybe demographics has something to do with my opinion. I live out in hicksville West Virginia. I'm not exposed to what a lot of other people are. I dont live near any happening spots or bigger cities unless I travel an hour to go to Pittsburgh and that cities a human urinal. They dont even offer cable TV where I live. Oh well, just babbling.

Quoted from Sandra

Religion isn't the cause of wars, it's mans desire for POWER.

I said that millions of people have been killed in the name of whatever God. That's a difference.

Sandra put my thoughts on paper much better than I could. You see, when somebody says something like

Quoted from Bobber

I said that millions of people have been killed in the name of whatever God. That's a difference.

I tend to think there is some deception going on - either the person who is saying it is deceived by those who would like to slam religion, or the person saying it is deceiving himself or others.

Here, try this other statement:

"... millions of people who believe in God have been killed by those who don't believe in God" .

That's just as valid isn't it? But it gives the exact opposite impression of the first one. Neither gives the full picture, but either can be used to manipulate and justify one's point of view. Basically millions of people have been killed because, exactly like Sandra said, people want more power, and being basically animals, we tend to do what we have to to get it.

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.

So, IMO, it's important not to get too caught up in the rhetoric when having a discussion like this. It helps to look at the statements one is making, and then ask whether the "other side" could make a similar statement,just as valid, that supports their point of view.

Quoted from Joost

The Ten Commandments too have been passed through for thousands of years with the risk of being distorted by humans along the way. And there's absolute proof that this happened, as there are currently four versions of the Ten Commandments (Jewish, Angelican/Reformed, Orthodox, Roman Catholic/Lutheran).

Well I am of the Reformed tradition, and we use the Jewish old testament, so we have the same 10 Commandments as the Jews do. So at least part of your statement is not true at all    I'd bet at least a java mocha that the Catholic and Lutherans use the same 10 Commandments as well. Where did you get your info?

BTW - I agree with what I think is the basic premise of your post ... the word of God is not irrefutably in the Bible, as it was written by man. But I don't think your post supports that completely ...

Quoted from alexis

Well I am of the Reformed tradition, and we use the Jewish old testament, so we have the same 10 Commandments as the Jews do. So at least part of your statement is not true at all    I'd bet at least a java mocha that the Catholic and Lutherans use the same 10 Commandments as well. Where did you get your info?

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  ) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.

I see I can not make myself clear enough. Never mind.