Quoted from Sandra

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

you're free to be christian,
OK, let me rephrase that to Christian or Jewish. 78% Of all Americans are Christian or Jewish... 100% of all senators are Christian or Jewish. So that's 30 million atheists, 6 million Buddhists, 1 million Muslims and 1 million Hindus without any representatives. Or a chance to ever get a high political position. They're even using it against Obama now that his father was born a Muslim.

patriotic
Remember what happend to the Dixie Chicks?

and heterosexual
See above.

I know that not nearly all Americans are that close minded, but fact is that life is easier if you're christian, patriotic and heterosexual.

Okay, I see we're coming from two entirely different places here so I'm just going to bow out. I totally respect where you're coming from and hope you don't judge me on my nationality. Yes, this country is not perfect, but then what country is? Especially one as huge. I just don't get what people want. Personally, I think it's going in the right direction. Has been for quite some time. Slowly YES and with many bumps along the way! Especially these last, uh, eight or so years. But again, it's the people that count and the people are becoming more enlightened and are slowly seeing to it that things are moving forward.

Remember, this country isn't that old and if you stack its history up against any other country I feel we'd all come out a bit tarnished. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

PS
The Dixie Chicks are just obnoxious anyway and they play to an audience that they KNOW doesn't believe what they believe in. I think they're hypocrites in that sense and it was probably more of a publicity stunt than we realize. There's been plenty of artists that have protested and haven't had that kind of negative feedback. Part of the reason is how it was done and by who. There's a big picture to be looked at there. Doubtful that Bob Dylan or someone of his talent and reputation would have gotten the same flack. But then he would have done it in a way more intelligent way. Not like some chick trying to be hip for the sake of record sales and coolness.

Quoted from Sandra

Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

I hope you're right. I'll be a bit more optimistic if Obama will be elected.

But we're getting too far off topic and I should really try to be a bit less offensive... Sorry for that.

You weren't being offensive at all! It was a great discussion from everyone involved. And great discussions sometimes veer off topic I guess! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm hope it was okay that I butt in in the middle of the conversation!

BTW, I realize that I'm probably way too much of an idealist when it comes to wishing the best from people. Which is weird because most of the time I don't feel I have much faith in mankind! Much of the time I feel like a big hypocrite myself when I go on about things getting better! Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it or something.

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

Quoted from Sandra

You weren't being offensive at all!

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?  

Quoted from DaveRam

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "Fags will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

They pick up on the couple of passages in the Bible that do mention it Joost .
But Jesus himself never mentions it , his teachings are clear love thy neighbour and let he who is without sin cast the first stone .
Also it's not one of the Ten Commandments .Only adultery warrents such a condemnation .
For me the words of Jesus and the Ten Commandments indicate God and Jesus are indifferent to homosexuality they don't have a clearly expressed opinion on the matter .
So i take from that it's OK to love thy neighbour so long as it's not someone else's wife .
Clear as mud as they say .

Quoted from Joost

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?  

Nah, I can get that at just about any other site I visit! And do.  

Quoted from Joost

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "Fags will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

I'm pretty sure Allah doesn't teach his disciples to use car bombs and kill innocent people in his name either. There are lunatics in EVERY religion. And if there wasn't religion, there would STILL be lunatics that would hate other. They would just have to blame it on something else. And I think they would find something easily enough.



I tend to agree with this:

All ... religions show the same disparity between belief and practice, and each is safe till it tries to exclude the rest. Test each sect by its best or its worst as you will, by its high-water mark of virtue or its low-water mark of vice. But falsehood begins when you measure the ebb of any other religion against the flood-tide of your own. There is a noble and a base side to every history.-Thomas Wentworth Higginson

It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?

Quoted from Jane

It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?

I'm not an American so I can't speak for them, but I think that criticizing your own country and questioning every decision your government makes is the patriotic thing to do. If you truely care about your country, you're not going to let some guy who happens to be president for four years do to it whatever he wants. Your government is not your country. You don't have to be loyal to the politicians in charge to be loyal to your country.

I think this is an idealistic point of view. If things depended on people ,on the public the world would be different. In fact, not a lot depends on whether you let those in power do what they want or not. They will pursue their policy without asking your permission. People were against the war but the troops invaded Iraq, you see. Though on some issues, such as human rights, i thought America was ahead of other countries.

I was reading the Gospel According To Matthew this afternoon and i just can't see from what Jesus said that homosexuality was an issue .
Adultery yes he is clear about that been wrong . He speaks about that during "The Sermon On The Mount "
But he does'nt mention anything about homosexuals during his most famous speech to us .
So i don't understand why this issue is such a hot topic ?