A bit late in posting but I figured someone else would have mentioned it by now.

Way to go, California! I hope many more states will follow suit.

Yes, let's see if it will last this time around.

I don't see what the big deal is (I mean the anti-gay marriage issue).  Why do people care what two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors?  Not only that but people say that god wouldn't want it that way... Well if you really believe that then those people will have to oneday answer to god so let them worry about it.  

I think it will stick this time too.  Which I think is great  

yeah, well since massachusetts legalized it (once the "Bay State" now we're the "Gay State") the sky hasn't fallen and the world hasn't collapsed in on itself, so i dont think legalizing it was such a bad thing now, dont think?

we're still the most liberal state in the Union

Being that we are still the most liberal state in the union, it is hard to believe a few years ago we voted no on gay marriage!  But like I said I think this time around it will stick.

oh no, i meant massachusetts is the most liberal state in the Union.

and we were founded by a bunch of tight asses, even the british kicked them out

Oh sorry I thought you were talking about California

Thumbs up for California!

Quoted from Joost

Thumbs up for California!

?

You pervert.  

I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....

Quoted from HeatherBoo

I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....

I think it is what gets the hormones pumping, little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Although, from a purely biological Darwinian point of view, hetero males should be happy that there are homosexual males - that is less competitiion for passing their genes down to the next generation.

Maybe it's just coincidence, but ... at least in the USA, the Religious Right is the main leader of the fight against homosexuality. Darwinianly speaking, one must wonder if there is some reason they are not looking out for their own genetic interests.

Perhaps some hyposexuality is associated with that group?

(In spanish ... no cojones!)

Quoted from alexis

little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Great line.  

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?

Quoted from Geoff

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?

Amen to that!

That's cool that California legalized gay marriages.  I have a brother in law who is gay.....my husband's younger brother, Jay, and this doesn't bother me.  Good for California.  Oh, by the way.............Jay is one of the BEST waiters in town..........par excellent!!!!

No doubt among others, I've noticed that since that California decision came down all those Republicans who were such fervent advocates of "states' rights" because they don't like the power of federal government are starting to look a lot more fondly at Washington, or at least the Supreme Court. So here we go....

Don't get too excited! This decision was made by the California Supreme Court (in a 4 to 3 ruling). So, guess what, not everyone had such a great reaction to the court "abandoning its role as an objective interpreter of the law and instead legislating from the bench." So, the decision will go to the people.

The November ballot will include a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to unions between men and women. So if more than half of California voters approve the measure, it could neutralize last month's state Supreme Court ruling.

While I AGREE with the decision of the court, I'm not sure if I agree with how it was done. The Judicial branch is supposed to INTERPRET the laws, not make them.

From the LA Times:
The three dissenting justices argued that it was up to the electorate or the Legislature to decide whether gays should be permitted to marry.

"In my view, California should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call their unions marriage," Justice Carol A. Corrigan wrote in the first sentence of her dissent.

"But I, and this court, must acknowledge that a majority of Californians hold a different view and have explicitly said so by their vote. This court can overrule a vote of the people only if the Constitution compels us to do so. Here, the Constitution does not."

Justice Marvin R. Baxter, joined by Justice Ming W. Chin, said the ruling "creates the opportunity for further judicial extension of this perceived constitutional right into dangerous territory."

"Who can say that in 10, 15 or 20 years, an activist court might not rely on the majority's analysis to conclude, on the basis of a perceived evolution in community values, that the laws prohibiting polygamous and incestuous marriages were no longer constitutionally justified?" Baxter wrote.

Okay, Baxter's probably being an alarmist here, but he makes a valid point. If you can look at it objectively, without any agenda getting in the way. Anyway, I say leave it to the people to decide. I have faith in my fellow Californians! I think...

Hmmm, interesting. I have to say that while I agree with gay marriage I think that everything should be put to a fair vote. I have a hard time believing that the Republican vote in Cali is very large, though. So it will all probably work out for the best.

All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.

Quoted from tkitna

All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.

But how would it affect you if gay marriage would be legalized in your state? And if you don't believe in something doesn't mean you can't tolerate it, right?

Maybe the thought of two men having sex seems disgusing to you but well... The thought of people over 70 having sex doesn't seem like a very pretty picture to me either, but you won't hear me say that people over 70 shouldn't be allowed to be married...

Everyone is allowed their own opinions.  That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.  

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Quoted from HeatherBoo

Everyone is allowed their own opinions.  That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.  

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Quoted from Jane

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Sorry, I sincerely apologize if it seems like I am that way. I can assure you that I'm not. But this is just a subject that I'm very passionate about. And about the thing in the Beach Boys topic, well... Maybe I came off a little harsh, but I hope you see what I meant there.

You should realize that just like Tkitna I too am just expressing my opinion. If he can do it, so can I, right? And I'm not saying Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion. It's just that homophobia makes me sad. Life is hard enough as it is, we shouldn't waste our time on telling people who aren't harming anyone that how they live or what they do is wrong. I have a few friends who are homosexual and I know that their love for their partners isn't a lesser kind of love than the love between a woman and a man. But if you tell a homosexual couple that they don't have the same rights as a heterosexual couple, that's exactly what you're basically telling them: that their love isn't as 'real' as heterosexual love.

Joost!!! You are very nice! and i know that we are all very touchy at times and sensitive. And on that subject you give very good, well-founded arguments, cause everybody has the right to be happy, to love and to be loved. every living creature. Why deprive people of love? Love is what matters, love is what everybody seeks in their lives, love is what gives sense to one`s life. Why be cruel?

Quoted from Joost

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

Quoted from Joost

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

I agree.  

Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my a** otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.

Quoted from Joost

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

.

There's SO much more to human nature than this as to what makes a person feel comfortable or uncomfortable. You can't fully understand a human being from one statement or one feeling. And to expect people to only feel the way you feel they should feel or think the way you think they should think on such matters is just as intolerant an attitude to take on as the one you're taking issue with.

Not to say that this is what you're implying. I'm just saying that if you live with other human beings, then you have to accept that people will have different ways of looking at things. This does not always mean they are bad or ignorant or phobic. You really don't know unless you take the time to know them. And if you find out that they think certain things or feel certain ways for reasons you don't agree with, you then have the choice to not associate with them. But at least there would be discussion and some sort of attempt to understand the individual based on more than a couple of statements.  

Oh I wasn't coming down on anyone! I am happy that everyone is sharing their thoughts even if I do not agree with them. I just meant that we should all be happy that we can think for ourselves and not have to worry about getting in trouble for it.  

And as time goes one, things change and people change.  I think sometimes people get set in their ways (the way it was when they were young, what was acceptable then and what was not) and so that's why it takes time for things to change because some people are really against change.  Now that the younger generation can vote and homosexuality has been more open during their lifetime,  they are more willing to be for it rather than against it like the older generation who, when they were younger, it was not as accepted.  

Quoted from Sandra

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

you're free to be christian,
OK, let me rephrase that to Christian or Jewish. 78% Of all Americans are Christian or Jewish... 100% of all senators are Christian or Jewish. So that's 30 million atheists, 6 million Buddhists, 1 million Muslims and 1 million Hindus without any representatives. Or a chance to ever get a high political position. They're even using it against Obama now that his father was born a Muslim.

patriotic
Remember what happend to the Dixie Chicks?

and heterosexual
See above.

I know that not nearly all Americans are that close minded, but fact is that life is easier if you're christian, patriotic and heterosexual.

Okay, I see we're coming from two entirely different places here so I'm just going to bow out. I totally respect where you're coming from and hope you don't judge me on my nationality. Yes, this country is not perfect, but then what country is? Especially one as huge. I just don't get what people want. Personally, I think it's going in the right direction. Has been for quite some time. Slowly YES and with many bumps along the way! Especially these last, uh, eight or so years. But again, it's the people that count and the people are becoming more enlightened and are slowly seeing to it that things are moving forward.

Remember, this country isn't that old and if you stack its history up against any other country I feel we'd all come out a bit tarnished. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

PS
The Dixie Chicks are just obnoxious anyway and they play to an audience that they KNOW doesn't believe what they believe in. I think they're hypocrites in that sense and it was probably more of a publicity stunt than we realize. There's been plenty of artists that have protested and haven't had that kind of negative feedback. Part of the reason is how it was done and by who. There's a big picture to be looked at there. Doubtful that Bob Dylan or someone of his talent and reputation would have gotten the same flack. But then he would have done it in a way more intelligent way. Not like some chick trying to be hip for the sake of record sales and coolness.

Quoted from Sandra

Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

I hope you're right. I'll be a bit more optimistic if Obama will be elected.

But we're getting too far off topic and I should really try to be a bit less offensive... Sorry for that.

You weren't being offensive at all! It was a great discussion from everyone involved. And great discussions sometimes veer off topic I guess! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm hope it was okay that I butt in in the middle of the conversation!

BTW, I realize that I'm probably way too much of an idealist when it comes to wishing the best from people. Which is weird because most of the time I don't feel I have much faith in mankind! Much of the time I feel like a big hypocrite myself when I go on about things getting better! Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it or something.

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

Quoted from Sandra

You weren't being offensive at all!

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?