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DM's Beatles forums / Current Affairs / Anti-Americans
Posted by: Sandra, October 18, 2007, 2:29am
I have to tell you that anytime I seem to go to a site that involves people from other countries it is INEVITABLE that someone will start making really rude anti-American comments and think it's okay. I mean, I go to YouTube to watch a Blur video and people, mostly from the UK, are commenting on how dumb Americans are or how fat Americans are or how they musn't like a song/movie/whatever because they're too stupid to get it and so on. I go to IMDB to read about a movie and I see the same thing. The expression I cannot stand the most is when they start with, "You Americans..." It's extremely offensive and filled with disdain.
I find it hard to understand how some people can generalize us so easily and harbor such hatred for people they have never met. I think it shows such ignorance and intolerance. I really have to work hard not to start feeling anti something myself because of these kinds of comments. I mean, obviously I know there are issues with our country, but the comments made go beyond the political and they do nothing to provoke intelligent discussion in any way. It's usually about personality and I really don't know how you can assume we all have the same personality. Fat, dumb, ignorant, low taste, low intelligence, overly sensitive, etc. This is what I see all the time. It's just pure hatred.
And do not think for a second this is because of Bush. I was watching an old Doors interview from the sixties and they were asked how the European audience differed from the American audiences. The said they liked it when they were political and they particularly cheered when anything Anti-American was said. No matter what it was. So this blind hatred has been going on forever. Sheep.
Personally, it sounds to me that these people suffer from some sort of inferiority complex and putting down an ENTIRE nation of over 300 million people makes them feel better. That's my assessment at the moment. I think people think it's okay to put down Americans. Like somehow we deserve it and should just take it. I really just want to just say f*** off. Take your half assed theories and f*** off. Not that I would ever say that though. I mean, I'm sure these are intelligent people commenting on these boards and who am I to question their great insight? After all, I'm just some American. ::)
Posted by: pc31, October 18, 2007, 2:56am; Reply: 1
damn you got fire inside you woman!!!i have always admired the way you speak your mind....where were you when i was swingle??????i think we get a bad rap because our fair nation was started with revolution and it has been working....america rose to a world power rapidly....we do have more freedom than most countries.....you have some that curse our systems milking it for all its worth too...do you know we pay people to immagrate here???do you know there are over 20 million illegal citizens here????some of the hate maybe deserved but alot is jealousy....let me say i am proud to be an american...and i enjoy the circus.....
Posted by: Klang, October 18, 2007, 3:11am; Reply: 2
Posted by: Sandra, October 18, 2007, 3:55am; Reply: 3
I just laugh.
:D
I used to find it amusing at first, but not so much anymore. It's nothing but blind hatred at this point. It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans. There's such disgust in the comments I've read over the years. It's disturbing. Again, I'm not talking about our government or our policies. People have a right to be angry about things that concern the welfare of others. I'm talking about us as people. There is genuine disgust for us as people and I think it's wrong. As I think it is wrong to hate anyone based solely on race, nationality, or religious affiliation.
Posted by: Mairi, October 18, 2007, 11:21am; Reply: 4
I agree with what you said. People may put down Americans because they are secretly jealous of the power that the USA holds in the world. It also probably doesn't help that the media portrays the American image of being rude and obnoxious. I admit to a little Anti-American sentitments at times but for the most part I think that the label put on them by the media is stupid. Most are portrayed as backward hicks who are against change, but really that's only a small percentage.
Posted by: Mairi, October 18, 2007, 11:21am; Reply: 5
Also: Scotland is the second fattest country in the world after the United States.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 18, 2007, 2:03pm; Reply: 6
Fair play to your views...I don't hate Americans...I secretly fear that America's actions may cause Armageddon though. Anyone who has children would probably deep down bear that same fear. Thats why I havn't actually had children yet....Feelings become mixed and come out in different ways.
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...Thats a power struggle though by power hungry politicians...not peace-loving individuals. :o
On another note....I'm ashamed that Britain is trying to get rights to territory in the South Pole....More colonial power hungriness......Power obsessed is a nation all of it's own.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 18, 2007, 2:12pm; Reply: 7
I used to find it amusing at first, but not so much anymore. It's nothing but blind hatred at this point. It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans. There's such disgust in the comments I've read over the years. It's disturbing. Again, I'm not talking about our government or our policies. People have a right to be angry about things that concern the welfare of others. I'm talking about us as people. There is genuine disgust for us as people and I think it's wrong. As I think it is wrong to hate anyone based solely on race, nationality, or religious affiliation.
I agree but I am sure disturbing comments can be found from all nations. I think your alright Sandra as it goes.
Posted by: Klang, October 18, 2007, 3:23pm; Reply: 8
I suppose I often laugh to keep from crying. Look, the people of the USA are so diverse in every way imagineable, it might stand as a microcosmic representation of the entire world itself. That's why we squabble so much among ourselves, I guess. The foreign policy that the government implements doesn't reflect the wishes of anyone that I know, and the elections are looking like they're rigged anyway. So who really is in charge here? All the little guy can do is complain and hope for change, which is not a very dynamic tactic but what else is there, short of mass insurrection (which will never happen)?
<scratches head>
:-/
Posted by: blackmath, October 18, 2007, 4:19pm; Reply: 9
yeah, and some people think that muslims are terrorists. ::) anyone who judges someone by their nationality or religion is uncultured. true story.
Posted by: Flaming Pie in the Sky, October 18, 2007, 6:47pm; Reply: 10
It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans.
Some of them really are.
Posted by: Joost, October 18, 2007, 7:11pm; Reply: 11
I mean, I go to YouTube to watch a Blur video and people, mostly from the UK, are commenting on how dumb Americans are or how fat Americans are or how they musn't like a song/movie/whatever because they're too stupid to get it and so on.
Sandra, take these comments and replace "Americans" with "Jews". Or "African Americans". Or "Latinos". What do you get then? Racist comments. Now put the word "American" back in there. What are they now? Still racist comments. Generalizing the entire population of a particular country in an overtly negative way, that's simply what we call racism.
This means you have every right to feel offended by these comments. But it also means that you should realize that people that make such comments are a dumb, ignorant minority and are not worth your energy.
Posted by: Bobber, October 18, 2007, 7:31pm; Reply: 12
Generalisation. Everybody in the world thinks that everybody in The Netherlands is smoking pot every day.
Posted by: Whoever, October 18, 2007, 9:23pm; Reply: 13
Whatever hate or praise we get for being whatever nationality we are comes from our past actions as a nation. If you live in a successful country no doubt you've got there from creating some kind of Empire, the praisers benefit from the Empire and the haters don't benefit from the Empire. That's a generalisation on a generalisation. In a way. I think.
Posted by: pc31, October 19, 2007, 12:13am; Reply: 14
Generalisation. Everybody in the world thinks that everybody in The Netherlands is smoking pot every day.
you mean that's a lie?????next you'll be telling me there is no santa claus!!!!
i love this comment...the praisers benefit from the Empire and the haters don't benefit from the Empire. That's a generalisation on a generalisation.
true wisdom there who....
Posted by: Sandra, October 19, 2007, 1:00am; Reply: 15
Sandra, take these comments and replace "Americans" with "Jews". Or "African Americans". Or "Latinos". What do you get then? Racist comments. Now put the word "American" back in there. What are they now? Still racist comments. Generalizing the entire population of a particular country in an overtly negative way, that's simply what we call racism.
This means you have every right to feel offended by these comments. But it also means that you should realize that people that make such comments are a dumb, ignorant minority and are not worth your energy.
This is true, but I feel like if all I'm doing is trying to enjoy and discuss a Blur video or watch a clip a Sacha Baron Cohen I really don't need to read 25 comments about how stupid and fat Americans are. I really don't see people attacking let's say the French or the Italians. It's always: you Americans. And it's said with such disgust it makes me sad. I mean, I don't think the people I know are trying to destroy the world. We're just trying to live. Our government is just as imperfect as any governent, but I'll quote a line from an old movie here:
"You American haters bore me to tears, Ms. Barham. I've dealt with Europeans all my life. I know all about us parvenus from the States who come over here and race around your old Cathedral towns with our cameras and Coca-cola bottles... Brawl in your pubs, paw at your women, and act like we own the world. We over-tip, we talk too loud, we think we can buy anything with a Hershey bar. I've had Germans and Italians tell me how politically ingenuous we are, and perhaps so. But we haven't managed a Hitler or a Mussolini yet. I've had Frenchmen call me a savage because I only took half an hour for lunch. Hell, Ms. Barham, the only reason the French take two hours for lunch is because the service in their restaurants is lousy. The most tedious lot are you British. We crass Americans didn't introduce war into your little island. This war, Ms. Barham to which we Americans are so insensitive, is the result of 2,000 years of European greed, barbarism, superstition, and stupidity. Don't blame it on our Coca-cola bottles. Europe was a growing brothel long before we came to town."
So there are many ways to look at the world and who bares what responsibility. Don't put it all on our shoulders. Now I know a lot of people think Bush is the modern day Hitler, but I think that if you really think about it there's a huge difference. I don't say he's not dangerous (or him and the people around him) or hasn't been the cause of many deaths, but there's a huge difference. And we are certainly not behind him. For the most part. It's a huge country so there's always that faction out there. That scary, close minded, violent faction. I just think it's unfair to lump us all together as fat, stupid war mongers. We're people and especially when we're just posting about some stupid band we don't deserve a million insulting comments.
Posted by: Sandra, October 19, 2007, 1:03am; Reply: 16
I think your alright Sandra as it goes.
I don't even know how to take that.
Posted by: adamzero, October 19, 2007, 2:48am; Reply: 17
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...
It's interesting you feel that way, Apps. I always thought that FDR did a lot before the U.S. entered the war to help Britain (such as the Lend-Lease Act). Britain won WWII with U.S. help, but lost its empire. I think the loss of territorial possessions had more to do with the post-war economy in Britain than anything the U.S. did. I think Britain is still struggling with its post-colonial identity. The Beatles were a great part of Britain losing the stodgy old-school class-structured Britain for something cosmopolitan, radical, multicultural (white guys in love with black music).
My only problem with Britain politically is that damned monarchy. After you guys chopped off Charles' head, you should have done with it. The Restoration was the worst thing to happen to Britain in the last 500 years.
Posted by: Sandra, October 19, 2007, 4:01am; Reply: 18
I only bring the topic up as means for a discussion. It's no argument. I have visited several boards and inevitably the anti-American sentiment comes up. I don't feel I was attacking people from the UK either, only stating that the majority of comments came from them. Probably because of the whole speaking English thing. I mean, I know the sentiment is felt throughout the world. Political stuff aside my point was that I don't think it's fair or right to generalize an entire nation of people. THAT creates boundries. Discussion can only bring enlightenment.
Also, when I said I didn't know how to take that I wasn't being a jerk or anything. I seriously didn't know how to take it. The as it goes part threw me. But I suspect that if any of us met in person we'd seem to be nothing like we are on this site. Or at least seem very different. Well, I know I'd be. I usually keep this stuff inside and just try to keep everyone around me happy. Anonimity allows for certain privileges I guess.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 19, 2007, 4:27am; Reply: 19
Its a funny ol world. I'd like to live in peace.
Peace & love. x
Posted by: Bobber, October 19, 2007, 9:15am; Reply: 20
you mean that's a lie?????
Yeah, it's a lie. We're not smoking pot. We're using coke.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, October 19, 2007, 9:40am; Reply: 21
Yeah, it's a lie. We're not smoking pot. We're using coke.
Now that you've banned magic mushrooms. ;D
Posted by: Bobber, October 19, 2007, 10:26am; Reply: 22
Now that you've banned magic mushrooms. ;D
That's just this time of the year.
Posted by: pc31, October 19, 2007, 10:34am; Reply: 23
and i thought you guys and girls were into pespi cola......we do the dew here...
Posted by: BlueMeanie, October 19, 2007, 11:00am; Reply: 24
On a more serious note, I think we all get critisised wrongly sometimes, due in part, to a lack of understanding of another people's culture. I can completely empathise with how you feel Sondra. I've been brought up with other people saying things like: 'You English and your tea', 'You English and your weather', You English and your Monarchy', You English driving on the left', You English and your queueing'!!! Mostly irritating I know, rather than insulting, but a lifetime of it really makes you mad sometimes. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss, and sometimes not. For those that are ignorant by choice, pity them. Smile and nod, and know that you're above that.
Posted by: Joost, October 19, 2007, 12:09pm; Reply: 25
On a more serious note, I think we all get critisised wrongly sometimes, due in part, to a lack of understanding of another people's culture.
True. I once heard Bill O'Reilly say on TV that a lot of thing are going the wrong way in America and that if they wouldn't be careful, "America could end up just like The Netherlands". I was very insulted when I heard that.
Of course you can legally get cocaine in every supermarket here, our women have abortions just for the fun of it, we have government funded campaigns to convert people to homosexuality and we have more brothels than houses, but I don't see what's wrong with all that? ::)
Posted by: 679 (Guest), October 19, 2007, 3:10pm; Reply: 26
The Americans i have met have always been nice people , so i can only judge on my experience which as been good.
I don't like rudeness and i find the internet a very rude place to be sometimes , ive seen a lot of things written and i just think where are your manners , that might be a bit old fashioned but i was taught " Good Manners " if you can't make a point without been rude you should be silent .
My mum always says manners cost nothing and i agree with her ?
DaveRam :)
Posted by: Kevin, October 19, 2007, 4:00pm; Reply: 27
I think Britain is still struggling with its post-colonial identity....
My only problem with Britain politically is that damned monarchy. After you guys chopped off Charles' head, you should have done with it. The Restoration was the worst thing to happen to Britain in the last 500 years.
Agree with the first bit totally. Britain has three choices - side with the US, side with Europe or go it alone. It's still not sure what way to go.
Re the monarchy - I used to feel the same as you, especially re The House Of Lords. But bear this in mind - Britain has had stable government for 300 years now, free of the revolutions, totalatarian governments and civil wars that have beset everyone else (including your good selves.) It is a nation proud of it's traditions of civil liberties, free speech and tolerance.They must be doing something right.
Posted by: Kevin, October 19, 2007, 4:08pm; Reply: 28
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...Thats a power struggle though by power hungry politicians...not peace-loving individuals. :o
I can't hold that against them. they had involved themselves in a european war in 1917 just to see the continent tearing itself apart again barely a generation later. Why should americans die for what would be seen as protecting the Soviet, French and British empires (that themselves enslaved and exploited millions). If I'd been an american in 1939 i wouldn't want my country involved in another european squabble.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 19, 2007, 6:15pm; Reply: 29
It's a fair point Kevin & AdamZero earlier. On re-reading this thread, i stand a bit more enlightened and apologise for my own tone. Just hope my brother gets home in one piece instead of defending stupid oil lines!
This is a pandora's box of a subject and can be justified/villified in many examples. I wish I never grew up at times to learn the worlds sins. :-/
Posted by: mr kite, October 19, 2007, 10:19pm; Reply: 30
Hatred of a country is a strange one , as i grew up, i was feed with WW2 war films and it was off to the fields with are sticks as guns and go and shoot as many Germans as possible , i hated Germans and i`d never met one .
I treat people as they treat me ,and it dos`nt matter to me what colour , country they come from i, have respect for anyone, and who has respect for me .
I was once proud to be English , not any more , when `ive been abroad and seen how English treat people, with no respect and no courtrsey and it upsets me .
But not all English are like that ? i guess not .
When i went to New York i could`nt get over how friendly the people were , doe`s that mean all New Yorkers are like that ?
Hate Americans , no , only small minded people who hate someone for the only reason that they live in another country , and are proberly wishing they were living there and its just jeaousy , i hate living here now and i`d leave tomorrow if i could .
Any Offers ;D
As Goerge said , "its easier to critisise someone else than to see yourself "
Love and peace , heres hoping
(inlove3)
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 20, 2007, 2:13am; Reply: 31
Posted by: Dark Phoenyx, October 20, 2007, 3:09am; Reply: 32
Ignorance ard racism ara closely related. Puerto Rico is a territory of the US and there's always controversy over the political status of the island. But I've notieced that lot of people in PR who are pro independence who are very attached to American lifestyle and values. But again I can't make generalizations, that's the problem with religion and other matters. Everybody has the right to have their own believes. Maybe some of the policies followed by the American governement are not the best but that doesn't mean Americans are bad, The same happens with Muslims, we can't say all Muslims are terrorist but yes, there's a lot of people in the world that hate Americans probably because they want for their nations what US has achieved...
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 20, 2007, 3:25am; Reply: 33
There are many paralells with Britain.....just one for example; Mexican immigrants resemble our own British immigrant issues...Does it portray modern slave labour? have we become complacent & lazy as countries? Some of you guys round here can speak about it with more depth & knowledge than I can..I am now really interested in this whole concept of Anti-Amercanism as I have neve seen so many uncensored views together in one place. The fact it has not degenerated into a slanging match shows the greatness of this forum.
I'd love to hear what Lennon or the rest of the beatles would say about this...My bet is they would be ambigious! lol
Posted by: Sandra, October 20, 2007, 6:10am; Reply: 34
I have a feeling Lennon would be very Americanized at this point in his life. Which would actually depress me. I mean because it wouldn't really be him I guess. If that makes any sense.
Posted by: pc31, October 20, 2007, 10:53am; Reply: 35
yassir individual merits....
Posted by: The Fox Drummer, October 22, 2007, 7:58pm; Reply: 36
I feel that on some level, Americans have deserved their bad rap, though. I'm American myself, but at the moment I'm really not proud of it. My country isn't a great place to be right now in my opinion - our government is doing some very disturbing, terrible things to people in Guatanamo Bay, Iraq, etc. and interfering in other countries' business, and I can understand why some people don't like us for that.
Still...I think that many people who are just ignorant stereotype us so much that they'll call us (them? I don't even like to associate myself with my country...) names even if they don't know what they're talking about, and that's the thing that gets me. *shrug*
People are entitled to say whatever they want, really. I don't mind if they insult America simply because I'm not at all patriotic, but if you're going to insult the country, at least have some background knowledge, please.
Posted by: Sandra, October 23, 2007, 1:59am; Reply: 37
I feel that on some level, Americans have deserved their bad rap, though. I'm American myself, but at the moment I'm really not proud of it. My country isn't a great place to be right now in my opinion - our government is doing some very disturbing, terrible things to people in Guatanamo Bay, Iraq, etc. and interfering in other countries' business, and I can understand why some people don't like us for that.
Still...I think that many people who are just ignorant stereotype us so much that they'll call us (them? I don't even like to associate myself with my country...) names even if they don't know what they're talking about, and that's the thing that gets me. *shrug*
People are entitled to say whatever they want, really. I don't mind if they insult America simply because I'm not at all patriotic, but if you're going to insult the country, at least have some background knowledge, please.
It's not the country that's being insulted so much as the people in it. That's what bothers me. I feel sad that you are not proud to be from here. I mean, we've accomplished many great things as well, but it's overshadowed by all the negativity. If people don't like what's going on, then they should stand up for change. It's been done before and it will be done again. I feel there is a definite mood building up which will result in something positive. That's the way I choose to look at it instead of choosing to feel guilty because that's what people tell me I should feel. I refuse to be suckered in by all the media hype.
Posted by: The Fox Drummer, October 23, 2007, 3:18pm; Reply: 38
It's not the country that's being insulted so much as the people in it. That's what bothers me. I feel sad that you are not proud to be from here. I mean, we've accomplished many great things as well, but it's overshadowed by all the negativity. If people don't like what's going on, then they should stand up for change. It's been done before and it will be done again. I feel there is a definite mood building up which will result in something positive. That's the way I choose to look at it instead of choosing to feel guilty because that's what people tell me I should feel. I refuse to be suckered in by all the media hype.
I said I don't feel very proud to be part of my country
now - I'm very proud of the fact that it was founded by a revolutionary change of ideas that included efficient democratic systems, freedom of speech, expression, and identification, etc., and I believe that we have contributed successfully to the world in a great many ways that few people choose to acknowledge today, but right now, I'm downright ashamed to be an American. I feel that we're represented by a corrupt government and the mistakes it's made in the Middle East and other parts of the world, and the American people aren't doing anything to change that in this moment in history, which I think is just sad. I don't want to associate myself with those kinds of people because I feel that we're dishonouring and dismantling our revolutionary and intellectual past by doing nothing. Like you, I'm hoping and working for a change, but the very things that people stereotype about us - greed, intolerance, self-centredness - are heightened by today's American culture and are therefore preventing us from doing anything.
Also, this is just my personal views, but I disagree with some basic fundamentals that have prevailed throughout our history, e.g. capitalism. *shrugs* But that's my personal bitching - it works for some people and doesn't for others. ;)
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 26, 2007, 11:13am; Reply: 39
Here is something may or may not be of interest that a friend of mine posted on myspace. It bears resonance with my own feelings.
Vonnegut's Blues For America - Read It (Or Don't) L x
No matter how corrupt, greedy, and heartless our government, our corporations, our media, and our religious and charitable institutions may become, the music will still be wonderful.
If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:
THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC
Now, during our catastrophically idiotic war in Vietnam, the music kept getting better and better and better. We lost that war, by the way. Order couldn't be restored in Indochina until the people kicked us out.
That war only made billionaires out of millionaires. Today's war is making trillionaires out of billionaires. Now I call that progress.
And how come the people in countries we invade can't fight like ladies and gentlemen, in uniform and with tanks and helicopter gunships?
Back to music. It makes practically everybody fonder of life than he or she would be without it. Even military bands, although I am a pacifist, always cheer me up. And I really like Strauss and Mozart and all that, but the priceless gift that African Americans gave the whole world when they were still in slavery was a gift so great that it is now almost the only reason many foreigners still like us at least a little bit. That specific remedy for the worldwide epidemic of depression is a gift called the blues. All pop music today jazz, swing, be-bop, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, the Stones, rock-and-roll, hip-hop, and on and on is derived from the blues.
A gift to the world? One of the best rhythm-and-blues combos I ever heard was three guys and a girl from Finland playing in a club in Krakow, Poland.
The wonderful writer Albert Murray, who is a jazz historian and a friend of mine among other things, told me that during the era of slavery in this country an atrocity from which we can never fully recover the suicide rate per capita among slave owners was much higher than the suicide rate among slaves.
Murray says he thinks this was because slaves had a way of dealing with depression, which their white owners did not: They could shoo away Old Man Suicide by playing and singing the Blues. He says something else which also sounds right to me. He says the blues can't drive depression clear out of a house, but can drive it into the corners of any room where it's being played. So please remember that.
Foreigners love us for our jazz. And they don't hate us for our purported liberty and justice for all. They hate us now for our arrogance.
What is radically new today is that my daughter, Lily, who has just turned 21, finds herself, as do your children, as does George W Bush, himself a kid, and Saddam Hussein and on and on, heir to a shockingly recent history of human slavery, to an Aids epidemic, and to nuclear submarines slumbering on the floors of fjords in Iceland and elsewhere, crews prepared at a moment's notice to turn industrial quantities of men, women, and children into radioactive soot and bone meal by means of rockets and H-bomb warheads. Our children have inherited technologies whose by-products, whether in war or peace, are rapidly destroying the whole planet as a breathable, drinkable system for supporting life of any kind.
Anyone who has studied science and talks to scientists notices that we are in terrible danger now. Human beings, past and present, have trashed the joint.
The biggest truth to face now what is probably making me unfunny now for the remainder of my life is that I don't think people give a damn whether the planet goes on or not. It seems to me as if everyone is living as members of Alcoholics Anonymous do, day by day. And a few more days will be enough. I know of very few people who are dreaming of a world for their grandchildren.
Many years ago I was so innocent I still considered it possible that we could become the humane and reasonable America so many members of my generation used to dream of. We dreamed of such an America during the Great Depression, when there were no jobs. And then we fought and often died for that dream during the second world war, when there was no peace.
But I know now that there is not a chance in hell of America becoming humane and reasonable. Because power corrupts us, and absolute power corrupts us absolutely. Human beings are chimpanzees who get crazy drunk on power. By saying that our leaders are power-drunk chimpanzees, am I in danger of wrecking the morale of our soldiers fighting and dying in the Middle East? Their morale, like so many lifeless bodies, is already shot to pieces. They are being treated, as I never was, like toys a rich kid got for Christmas.
Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. The leading characters in our history books have been our most enthralling, and sometimes our most terrifying, guessers.
May I name two of them? Aristotle and Hitler.
One good guesser and one bad one.
And the masses of humanity through the ages, feeling inadequately educated just like we do now, and rightly so, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one.
Russians who didn't think much of the guesses of Ivan the Terrible, for example, were likely to have their hats nailed to their heads.
We must acknowledge that persuasive guessers, even Ivan the Terrible, now a hero in the Soviet Union, have sometimes given us the courage to endure extraordinary ordeals which we had no way of understanding. Crop failures, plagues, eruptions of volcanoes, babies being born dead the guessers often gave us the illusion that bad luck and good luck were understandable and could somehow be dealt with intelligently and effectively. Without that illusion, we all might have surrendered long ago.
But the guessers, in fact, knew no more than the common people and sometimes less, even when, or especially when, they gave us the illusion that we were in control of our destinies.
Persuasive guessing has been at the core of leadership far so long, for all of human experience so far, that it is wholly unsurprising that most of the leaders of this planet, in spite of all the information that is suddenly ours, want the guessing to go on. It is now their turn to guess and guess and be listened to. Some of the loudest, most proudly ignorant guessing in the world is going on in Washington today. Our leaders are sick of all the solid information that has been dumped on humanity by research and scholarship and investigative reporting. They think that the whole country is sick of it, and they could be right. It isn't the gold standard that they want to put us back on. They want something even more basic. They want to put us back on the snake-oil standard.
Loaded pistols are good for everyone except inmates in prisons or lunatic asylums.
That's correct.
Millions spent on public health are inflationary.
That's correct.
Billions spent on weapons will bring inflation down.
That's correct.
Dictatorships to the right are much closer to American ideals than dictatorships to the left.
That's correct.
The more hydrogen bomb warheads we have, all set to go off at a moment's notice, the safer humanity is and the better off the world will be that our grandchildren will inherit.
That's correct.
Industrial wastes, and especially those that are radioactive, hardly ever hurt anybody, so everybody should shut up about them.
That's correct.
Industries should be allowed to do whatever they want to do: bribe, wreck the environment just a little, fix prices, screw dumb customers, put a stop to competition, and raid the Treasury when they go broke.
That's correct.
That's free enterprise.
And that's correct.
The poor have done something very wrong or they wouldn't be poor, so their children should pay the consequences.
That's correct.
The United States of America cannot be expected to look after its own people.
That's correct.
The free market will do that.
That's correct.
The free market is an automatic system of justice.
That's correct.
I'm kidding.
And if you actually are an educated, thinking person, you will not be welcome in Washington, DC. I know a couple of bright seventh graders who would not be welcome in Washington, DC. Do you remember those doctors a few months back who got together and announced that it was a simple, clear medical fact that we could not survive even a moderate attack by hydrogen bombs? They were not welcome in Washington, DC.
Even if we fired the first salvo of hydrogen weapons and the enemy never fired back, the poisons released would probably kill the whole planet by and by.
What is the response in Washington? They guess otherwise. What good is an education? The boisterous guessers are still in charge the haters of information. And the guessers are almost all highly educated people. Think of that. They have had to throw away their educations, even Harvard or Yale educations.
If they didn't do that, there is no way their uninhibited guessing could go on and on and on. Please, don't you do that. But if you make use of the vast fund of knowledge now available to educated persons, you are going to be lonesome as hell. The guessers outnumber you and now I have to guess about 10 to one.
I'm going to tell you some news.
No, I am not running for President, although I do know that a sentence, if it is to be complete, must have both a subject and a verb.
Nor will I confess that I sleep with children. I will say this, though: My wife is by far the oldest person I ever slept with.
Here's the news: I am going to sue the Brown & Williamson Tobacco Company, manufacturers of Pall Mall cigarettes, for a billion bucks! Starting when I was only 12 years old, I have never chain-smoked anything but unfiltered Pall Malls. And for many years now, right on the package, Brown and Williamson have promised to kill me.
But I am now 82. Thanks a lot, you dirty rats. The last thing I ever wanted was to be alive when the three most powerful people on the whole planet would be named Bush, Dick and Colon.
Our government's got a war on drugs. That's certainly a lot better than no drugs at all. That's what was said about prohibition. Do you realise that from 1919 to 1933 it was absolutely against the law to manufacture, transport, or sell alcoholic beverages, and the Indiana newspaper humourist Ken Hubbard said: "Prohibition is better than no liquor at all."
But get this: The two most widely abused and addictive and destructive of all substances are both perfectly legal.
One, of course, is ethyl alcohol. And President George W Bush, no less, and by his own admission, was smashed, or tiddley-poo, or four sheets to the wind a good deal of the time from when he was 16 until he was 40. When he was 41, he says, Jesus appeared to him and made him knock off the sauce, stop gargling nose paint.
Other drunks have seen pink elephants.
About my own history of foreign substance abuse, I've been a coward about heroin and cocaine, LSD and so on, afraid they might put me over the edge. I did smoke a joint of marijuana one time with Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead, just to be sociable. It didn't seem to do anything to me one way or the other, so I never did it again. And by the grace of God, or whatever, I am not an alcoholic, largely a matter of genes. I take a couple of drinks now and then and will do it again tonight. But two is my limit. No problem.
I am, of course, notoriously hooked on cigarettes. I keep hoping the things will kill me. A fire at one end and a fool at the other.
But I'll tell you one thing: I once had a high that not even crack cocaine could match. That was when I got my first driver's licence look out, world, here comes Kurt Vonnegut!
And my car back then, a Studebaker as I recall, was powered, as are almost all means of transportation and other machinery today, and electric power plants and furnaces, by the most abused, addictive, and destructive drugs of all: fossil fuels.
When you got here, even when I got here, the industrialised world was already hopelessly hooked on fossil fuels, and very soon now there won't be any left. Cold turkey.
Can I tell you the truth? I mean this isn't the TV news is it? Here's what I think the truth is: We are all addicts of fossil fuels in a state of denial. And like so many addicts about to face cold turkey, our leaders are now committing violent crimes to get what little is left of what we're hooked on.
I turned 82 on November 11, 2004. What's it like to be this old? I can't parallel park worth a damn any more, so please don't watch while I try to do it. And gravity has become a lot less friendly and manageable than it used to be.
When you get to my age, if you get to my age, and if you have reproduced, you will find yourself asking your own children, who are themselves middle-aged: "What is life all about?'" I have seven kids, three of them orphaned nephews.
I put my big question about life to my son the pediatrician. Dr Vonnegut said this to his doddering old dad: "Father, we are here to help each other get through this thing, whatever it is."
Extracted from A Man Without A Country: A Memoir Of Life In George W Bush's America, (Bloomsbury).
Posted by: Sandra, October 27, 2007, 8:49pm; Reply: 40
I've always respected Vonnegut as an author, but he had some pretty dim views about human beings in general.
Especially toward the end. And his own personal experiences in the war jaded him against his own country. He never left though as far as I know. That's always curious. ::)
Here's something from one of your countrymen that reflects some of my own feelings. As you say. Either way, my original point has been completely missed.
Anti-Americanism Is Racist Envy
Paul Johnson, eminent British historian and author.
Anti-Americanism is the prevailing disease of intellectuals today. Like other diseases, it doesn't have to be logical or rational. But, like other diseases, it has a syndrome--a concurrent set of underlying symptoms that are also causes.
• First, an unadmitted contempt for democracy. The U.S. is the world's most successful democracy. The right of voters to elect more than 80,000 public officials, the length and thoroughness of electoral campaigns, the pervasiveness of the media and the almost daily reports by opinion polls ensure that government and electorate do not diverge for long and that Washington generally reflects the majority opinion in its actions.
It is this feature that intellectuals--especially in Europe--find embittering. They know they must genuflect to democracy as a system. They cannot openly admit that an entire people--especially one comprising nearly 300 million, who enjoy all the freedoms--can be mistaken. But in their hearts these intellectuals do not accept the principle of one person, one vote. They scornfully, if privately, reject the notion that a farmer in Kansas, a miner in Pennsylvania or an auto assembler in Michigan can carry as much social and moral weight as they do. In fact, they have a special derogatory word for anyone who acts on this assumption: "populist." A populist is someone who accepts the people's verdict, even--and especially--when it runs counter to the intellectual consensus (as with capital punishment, for example). In the jargon of intellectual persiflage, populism is almost as bad as fascism--indeed, it's a step toward it. Hence, the argument goes, the U.S. is not so much an "educated democracy" as it is a media-swayed and interest-group-controlled populist regime.
The truth is, on the European Continent there is little experience of working democracy. Italy and Germany have had democracy only since the late 1940s; Spain, since the 1960s. France is not a democracy; it is a republic run by bureaucratic and party elites, whose errors are dealt with by strikes, street riots and blockades instead of by votes. Elements of the French system are being imposed throughout the EU, even in countries such as Denmark and Sweden that have long practiced democracy with success. In a French-style pseudodemocracy, intellectuals have considerable influence, at both government and street levels. In a true democracy, intellectuals are no more powerful than their arguments.
• Second, anti-Americanism is a function of cultural racism. An astonishingly high proportion of European elites know very little about U.S. history or culture and even deny that they have a separate existence apart from their European roots. It is strange that those seeking to bring about a European federal state or union have at no stage sought to study the lessons Americans learned during the creation of the U.S. in the 1780s. After all, the U.S. Constitution (suitably amended) has lasted for more than 200 years, and within its framework the country has emerged as the richest and most powerful society in world history. You might think, therefore, that European elites would seek to learn something from such a successful process. Not at all: The view is that sophisticated, civilized Europe has nothing to learn from "adolescent" America. What these Euro-elites particularly abhor is the way in which the framers of the Constitution made every effort to involve the population through the process of public debates, town meetings and ratification votes--and this at a time when Europe was still governed (for the most part) by the absolute sovereigns of the ancien régime.
This cultural racism is particularly directed at the supposedly "know-nothing" President George W. Bush and his "gung ho" Texas background. The European intelligentsia gets its notion of America chiefly from Hollywood, TV soaps like Dallas and fiction. Few of them have any experience of America, outside of three or four big cities. Middle America is unexplored territory. The fact that the U.S. has proved a highly efficient crucible for melding different peoples into a human sum greater than its constituent parts is seen as a misfortune in Europe because it produces a cultural stew that lacks purity of any kind and is therefore at the mercy of commercial forces.
• Third, European elites tend to look at Americans as a subcivilized mass, whose function is to be obedient consumers in a system run by big business. The role of competition in U.S. economic life--and in every other aspect of life--is ignored, because competition is something Continental Europeans like to keep to a minimum and under careful control.
Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous.
The truth is, any accusation that comes to hand is used without scruple by the Old World intelligentsia. Anti-Americanism is factually absurd, contradictory, racist, crude, childish, self-defeating and, at bottom, nonsensical. It is based on the powerful but irrational impulse of envy--an envy of American wealth, power, success and determination. It is an envy made all the more poisonous because of a fearful European conviction that America's strength is rising while Europe's is falling.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 28, 2007, 5:38pm; Reply: 41
^How much did he get paid to fashion that nonsense?! lol :P
I do see what you are saying Sandra though & thanks for the insight on Vonegut. It's all intereting stuff. :)
The whole EU thing is a shambles I must confess.
I must find out more about Paul Johnson,,,,,,eminent? Sounds like he is making a good living feeding the need for that opinion. ;D
Maybe it's easy for people to confuse anti-war with anti-americanism? Just another ponderer to throw into the pot.
My brother is now back from Afghanistan thankfully. :)
Posted by: Sandra, October 29, 2007, 5:18am; Reply: 42
Dude, it's just more ramblings from another half senile old man. There's always someone with a counter arguement is all and I wasn't talking politics. All I was saying when I started this thread is that I think it sucks that people think it's okay to call Americans derogitory names in response to them not liking a song or not liking a joke. I mean, somehow it's become okay to completely insult Americans and because of all the guilt Americans either just ignore it or insult themselves. It's just pure hatred. Or like someone else on this thread said and that writer I quoted said, a form of racism. Why should that be okay? That's all I was asking. I said from the beginning I wasn't talking about politics. I don't think I confuse peoples hate for the war with pure bigotry. Here's a comment from YouTube: "America is falling down around your ears and you're all too busy blaming each other to even notice it. You're all overly sensitive about people making jibes at you... massively insecure race of people with no friends in or outside you're own borders." Now what does that have to do with being anti-war? So whatever. It's become a moot point.
On a more positive note, I'm happy that your brother is back and safe. I agree with you about this war being nonsensical and it's sad that not all of the families with loved ones over there are as lucky. But that is another issue and has many threads already devoted to it.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 29, 2007, 10:01am; Reply: 43
Thanks for the good wishes Sandra. The anti-war & anti American theory was only that...Not aimed at you but something worth a mention. I mean I never questioned anti this or that until this thread and got myself in a right posting exchange with you to discover that perhaps thats what I was feeling.
It's always better if I button it anyway! lol :X x
Posted by: Kevin, October 29, 2007, 10:46am; Reply: 44
Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.
Posted by: Sandra, October 29, 2007, 4:56pm; Reply: 45
Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.
Don't forget, I didn't make the statement. Just quoted it. The whole religion thing has been baffling to ourselves as well. We have a puritan foundation that we just cannot seem to shake. I think that's where the root of it comes from. But the whole teaching creationism is not allowed in public schools anymore as far as I know. I think it's even gone as far as not being able to say the "one nation under God" line in the pledge of allegiance in some places and having to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Which I personally think is ridiculous. But either way, we've come a long way since the Scopes trial. But why do you see religion being dead as a positive thing? Don't you think it teaches values in a way? I think some people need it. I'm not religious myself, but I did get something from it growing up. Having religion doesn't always mean being fanatical in your beliefs.
I agree with Bobber's quote as well and it makes sense. I know why we are disliked. That's not my issue at all. My issue is: Can I enjoy looking up a person or video without being rudely insulted????? There's a way to get a point across without being nasty. That's all. Really.
Posted by: Kevin, October 29, 2007, 5:21pm; Reply: 46
I have mixed feelings about religion, so I can't say it's demise is positive. Just making an observation really, that because it's dead here (be that positive or negative) it makes it hard for us to understand its resurgence in the US.
I'm on your side on this one. If its any consolotion we give the French just as much stick. I think people who presume to know america based on what they see on the telly are misguided. There's that old saying - what people don't understand they fear, and what they fear they attack.
You know I think there is a cultural divide between us and you, but I would never make a judgement call on what is better or worse. They're just different.
Posted by: Sandra, October 29, 2007, 7:33pm; Reply: 47
Posted by: pc31, October 29, 2007, 10:43pm; Reply: 48
i read an article on the guy who invented the fins for the two atom bombs dropped on japan,fat man and little boy....he is proud of his invention and to be an american...while i don't share his veiws i can appreciate that his invention helped our cause...we had to fight and scratch to get to where we are at because there are so many different veiws here in america....i won't relate the whole triaid i layed on beatle ed(erin)because i started a topic called oh no another bloody american and she thought i was being non supportive of the 9-11 attacks...i wasn't and told her that america was built on the bones of my ancestors...i said more but it was butality misdirected....america is what it is because of unity...people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...
Posted by: BlueMeanie, October 31, 2007, 1:40pm; Reply: 49
people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...
Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack. It becomes a very patriotic time, for any nation, and any critisism is taken to heart. Such a mass outpouring of patriotism is often perceived as brashness and arrogance, and generally, Americans have been wrongly critisised in that department.
Britain suffers from two separate, but linked complexes; inferiority, and identity. The Empire is gone, Britain is not 'Great' anymore. We lost The War of Independence, and relied heavily on America to support us in two European Wars. In place of it's Empire, Britain now finds itself under the watchful eye of the EU. Something it has never really come to terms with, or for that matter, fully embraced. They fear they'll start to lose their identity if they change their currency to Euro's (the Danes are the same in this respect), drink half litres instead of pints, and travel in kilometres instead of miles. It doesn't want to let go of it's once great past, and rely on other nations, even in partnership.
America, on the other hand, is a confident, thriving, multi-cultural society. That it sometimes pushes it's weight a little too much is to be understood, not critisised. Should we ignore the plight of people in countries led by dictatoship? Should we really think that it's out of our hands, and none of our business? Maybe we should be thanking the most powerful nation on Earth for having the balls to try to do something about it.
Jealousy is a very bad thing, and the Brits have it in spadefulls when it comes to America. They seem to have forgotten what they were like in the past, and indeed seem to have no inkling as to how they are perceived by the rest of Europe. It's time some people grew up and realised that actually, we have a lot to thank America for.
Posted by: Kevin, October 31, 2007, 2:08pm; Reply: 50
Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack.
Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, October 31, 2007, 2:52pm; Reply: 51
Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.
And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 31, 2007, 4:28pm; Reply: 52
To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all. I am someone with no parents or grandparents though & of mixed parental & geographical nationality. I also live on the Isle of Wight (Slightly detached from the UK). The country I live on infact follows much of what America does, as did The Beatles. I personally would not be what I attempt to percieve I am without American music & free expression, as much as I would not be without other empires that have brought progress to humanity. BM you do put it well and like Kevin, I agree with much of it. Where is this post colonial jealousy coming from though other than randoms on unsolicited websites? Who/what defines it? I am intrigued to know.
I think what Im getting at is, to be percieved in such a way can make people very defensive and therefore the negative cycle continues. People not neccersarily that way become misunderstood in their response to the point of hatred to a fellow human being. We can never trace who threw the first stone. I guess I just want to be Mowgli from the jungle book and not really face it at all, as it is sooo hard to trust much anymore. I miss a simple life. You guys are very informative too btw, thank you.....It's all enlightenment, perhaps at least for us here. :)
Posted by: Kevin, October 31, 2007, 4:44pm; Reply: 53
I see it like this. As recently as my parents generation Britain was the major economic, military and cultural power on the planet. It knew its place in the world and what it was about.
In the blink of an eye that was all gone (has any empire vanished as fast?) Now where does Britain belong? Do we forsake any pretence as a dominant force in world affairs and go it alone, and become another Norway? Do we side with europe or cozy up with the americans? I don't think anyone knows.
I think Britain is jealous of america's wealth and power. People constantly knock them as insular, brash, and uncultured. The whole "have a nice day" thing is mercilessly mocked, as if sullen english indifference is somehow preferable. Brits are pretty disdainful of most foreigners (as probably are all cutures to outsiders) but seem to reserve most venom for americans. For the sake of brevity I'd say a lot of that stems from a hidden jealousy. Maybe in america's success we see our own failures.
I need a smoke.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 31, 2007, 5:07pm; Reply: 54
you see it well jedi. lol
I'll go along with George Clinton - One nation Under A Groove!
Posted by: Kevin, October 31, 2007, 5:37pm; Reply: 55
And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.
I'm currently reading "Their Finest Hour" about Britain in late 1940. It seems Churchill doubted the Germans seriously intended to invade (which was correct) but that he deliberately played up the threat. It seems he thought a little fear would do the people some good, especially as there were many in his government and in the media who doubted the wisedom of refusing to negotiate. Sounds a tad familiar.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, October 31, 2007, 6:41pm; Reply: 56
To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all.
Maybe jealousy is the wrong term to use, but I think envy definitely creeps in there. America fears no-one, and is beholden to no-one. The kids have it instilled in them at an early age that America is great, they are the best. They grow up with confidence second to none. Whereas Britain used to be the best, and now needs Europe, as opposed to Europe needing it. Many people in Britain have become dissatisfied with the country. I meet many of them that now live here, and wouldn't go back. Are they going to bring their kids up to think Britain is great? In contrast, the Americans I meet can't wait to get home.
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 31, 2007, 10:52pm; Reply: 57
Posted by: Sandra, October 31, 2007, 11:22pm; Reply: 58
That HAS to be a Sesame Street episode from the seventies. That's what it was like back then anyway. Too bad Jesse turned out to be a fraud. He went from that to using phrases like "himey town." That's always dissapointing. But it is a good message. Most of his generation turned out to be all talk though didn't they?
Posted by: An Apple Beatle, October 31, 2007, 11:49pm; Reply: 59
It is Sesame street. It is a shame about the right honourable. lol
Posted by: maninthequeue, November 13, 2007, 3:30pm; Reply: 60
Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack. It becomes a very patriotic time, for any nation, and any critisism is taken to heart. Such a mass outpouring of patriotism is often perceived as brashness and arrogance, and generally, Americans have been wrongly critisised in that department.
Britain suffers from two separate, but linked complexes; inferiority, and identity. The Empire is gone, Britain is not 'Great' anymore. We lost The War of Independence, and relied heavily on America to support us in two European Wars. In place of it's Empire, Britain now finds itself under the watchful eye of the EU. Something it has never really come to terms with, or for that matter, fully embraced. They fear they'll start to lose their identity if they change their currency to Euro's (the Danes are the same in this respect), drink half litres instead of pints, and travel in kilometres instead of miles. It doesn't want to let go of it's once great past, and rely on other nations, even in partnership.
America, on the other hand, is a confident, thriving, multi-cultural society. That it sometimes pushes it's weight a little too much is to be understood, not critisised. Should we ignore the plight of people in countries led by dictatoship? Should we really think that it's out of our hands, and none of our business? Maybe we should be thanking the most powerful nation on Earth for having the balls to try to do something about it.
Jealousy is a very bad thing, and the Brits have it in spadefulls when it comes to America. They seem to have forgotten what they were like in the past, and indeed seem to have no inkling as to how they are perceived by the rest of Europe. It's time some people grew up and realised that actually, we have a lot to thank America for.
As a Brit I think this is a great piece of analysis. However, we do know how we are perceived by the rest of Europe, especially every May when the Eurovision Song Contest occurs. :)
However, the criticism that us Brits uses against America has often been interpreted as inclusive when it has been more specific.
For example we generally like America more when you have a Democrat as President largely due to their policies & ideologies being a lot more similar to ours in the UK.
However, a large percentage of our nation have a major problem when it comes to a Republican administration. We have a problem with their religious Christian right wing theological beliefs such as anti-abortion/birth control/sex education, anti-divorce, anti-Homosexuality, anti-Scientific viewpoint (such as stem cell research) on Creation and the origin of species. we have a problem with their laissez-faire screw the rest of the world with regards global warming and the impact that human activity clearly has on climate change by ignoring the Kyoto Protocols.
Whilst at the time of the (illegal) War in Iraq, 63% of Brits were against it. As a result of "Puppy" Blair following George "W" Bush into this dreadful war leading to the deaths of thousands of innocent people and a few thousands of the allies troops, it was to cost Tony Blair his Prime Ministership. Which is a great pity as his former Chancellor (Gordon Brown) has shown in his first few months as PM that he is not up to the job.
To many Brits we don't hate America, but we hate George W Bush and his administration especially Donald Rumsfeld, but hey like a bad/sick John Wayne Western film parody he was only finishing off his daddy's work.
Never mind if the Bush Administration really wanted to do something about the "War on Terror" then it should have been paying a far closer eye on the military dictatorship in Pakistan, but ignored the vastly increasing Al Qaeda involvement in Pakistan because they are an ally of the US of A. Plus if America are the good guys then what are you doing having a Guantanamo Bay which is something that belongs to Hitler's Nazi Germany of Stalin's Communist Russia?
Posted by: Kevin, November 13, 2007, 3:49pm; Reply: 61
I can't understand how Brits can get sniffy about the US and Iraq. We are a democratic nation yet our troops have taken part in the invasion and occupation. We could have voted out "Puppet" Blair but we didn't. We are just as culpable as any american. He lied to us and still we sat back and waiting for him to choose his moment of departure. The war didn't cost him his job. Don't pretend Brits took some kind of morale stand that was beyond the americans. We are just as guilty.
In some ways Britains actions are worse, by participation we have given morale standing to the whole stupid affair. And for what? And maybe if you are to liken Bush to Stalin or Hitler then you should liken Blair/Brown to Mussolini: the gulliable stooge to a real super powers ambitions, giving an air of respectability to an underhanded interprise, trying to be a big boy but punching far above his weight.
It's hard to decide what shames me the most. Helping a big guy beat up a defenceless non threatening kid, or running away and abandon him the moment you think he might be loosing.
Brits didn't build Guantanamo Bay but we helped provide the environment in which it could be used. If we hadn't been the only nation to willingly fully support america no matter what it did, if america had had to stand alone, the place probably wouldn't exist.
Posted by: pc31, November 16, 2007, 11:44am; Reply: 62
i think bush thought his iran war would bolster his image to americans but it failed....
it is a pity that crisis binds us further....
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 11:50am; Reply: 63
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?
Posted by: Kevin, November 16, 2007, 12:06pm; Reply: 64
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?
Every night he and Blair must thank God* for 9/11. Without that they would have no excuse for their ill-advised attempts at foreign policy.
I can't single Bush out for any special stupidity award when Blair ( and therefore this country) has willingly been right beside him every step of the way.
And to be honest, it doesn't seem that long ago that Reagan was the warmongering-idiot-with-a-nuclear-arsenal that I was supposed to despise and ridicule. Now he's generally regarded as having won the Cold War.
* Or Mossad. Not sure how much "in the loop" these two are.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 12:32pm; Reply: 65
Every night he and Blair must thank God* for 9/11. Without that they would have no excuse for their ill-advised attempts at foreign policy.
I can't single Bush out for any special stupidity award when Blair ( and therefore this country) has willingly been right beside him every step of the way.
True. It's very tiring being the American President's b****. I'm just glad I haven't had to live in England for most of Blairs' leadership.
I can't help thinking how utterly gutted the paid up, 'socialist worker' type Labour voter must be, 10 years on from the euphoria of that election win. New Labour, my arse. Never having been a Labour voter myself, half of me thinks it's hillarious, and the other half finds it quite sad.
Posted by: Kevin, November 16, 2007, 12:45pm; Reply: 66
I can't help thinking how utterly gutted the paid up, 'socialist worker' type Labour voter must be, 10 years on from the euphoria of that election win. New Labour, my arse. Never having been a Labour voter myself, half of me thinks it's hillarious, and the other half finds it quite sad.
I feel your pain.
Personally, I do get some warped pleasure everytime (and anywhere) the Left gets in to power and becomes the same power-crazy clique-ridden control freaks they've spent their whole lives villifying to half empty community halls or the odd passer-by who stopped because they thought they were selling poppies.
At least The Right is honest.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 12:57pm; Reply: 67
At least The Right is honest.
Well that's a sweeping statement that we'll save for another time! But yes, the right actually say what yhey're going to do, and attempt to do it. The left has always been full of empty, unrealistic, daydreamlike promises that they know they can't fulfill. The Labour party only got the votes because New Labour stands for Liberal Democrat. Indeed, there is no reason for the Lib Dem's to exist anymore.
Posted by: harihead, November 16, 2007, 5:21pm; Reply: 68
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?
Don't forget our civil liberties! The current administration has done more to savage our rights and screw up the Constitution than any other. Yes, the race to make the President a dictator started before this administration, but our Congress is doing everything in its power to accelerate the process. The balance between the 3 branches of government is all caflooey. The President can't be a major dick on his own. The American people allowed that to happen by letting Congress be the self-centered weiners they mostly turn out to be. (Even my favorite Congressman joined the Dark Side so he can get into the Senate, wah!)
So the President can spy on the American people and toss people in jail without charge for as long as he wants, and the American people say, "More! Take away my right to protest, too! Because if I say anything against the President, I must be un-American!" When this administration is the least American thing to come down the pike since the Confederate States said, "We're leaving." At least they were up front about it.
Posted by: harihead, November 16, 2007, 5:26pm; Reply: 69
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.
Posted by: Kevin, November 16, 2007, 5:28pm; Reply: 70
So the President can spy on the American people and toss people in jail without charge for as long as he wants, and the American people say, "More! Take away my right to protest, too! Because if I say anything against the President, I must be un-American!"
I think it's hard to judge whether in a hundred years from now history will regard the Bush administration as exceptionally stupid or amazingly clever.
The you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us thing was a stroke of genius. No room for doubters now. And to have an enemy that's some beardie foreign chap who only pops up in videos (and who lives in the most US-vital area in the world!) = A+ effort. They couldn't have come up with a better opponent if they'd invented him themselves.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 5:31pm; Reply: 71
They couldn't have come up with a better opponent if they'd invented him themselves.
Now there's a thought.
Posted by: Kevin, November 16, 2007, 5:33pm; Reply: 72
In Britain we've got a whole heap of new anti-terrorism laws. The government says we needn't worry because they won't effect "normal people."
At the last Labour Party Conference (Convention), a 60 plus grey-haired party member who was voicing his opinion was removed from the auditorium for heckling. He was kept from attending the rest of the conference by...you guessed it....the new anti-terrorism laws.
We are also now longer allowed to protest anywhere near Parliament. Too much media attention if you protest with Big Ben as a nice backdrop for the cameras I suppose.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 5:33pm; Reply: 73
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.
You can switch censorship off. 'Disable Censored Words' in Board settings, in your profile. Does that mean you've been spared our swearing in the past? We'll have to make up for lost time! ;D
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 5:36pm; Reply: 74
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.
You can switch censorship off. 'Disable Censored Words' in Board settings, in your profile. Does that mean you've been spared our swearing in the past? We'll have to make up for lost time! ;D
Posted by: Kevin, November 16, 2007, 5:43pm; Reply: 75
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.
Might have been me. I'm not used to being able to modify other peoples post, and more than once I've hit "modify" instead of "quote."
And I generally abbreviate the quotes to the bit that's relevant to my own post.
Posted by: harihead, November 16, 2007, 5:50pm; Reply: 76
Oh, good grief. Okay, I'll fix the profile. And here I just thought you all were reasonably well-spoken people! Boy, is the bloom off the rose bush! (Actually, it shows that I only swear when I'm mad. I knew I should never get into a political discussion here.)
Since I am, Kevin, we have the same thing here. Bush crowds are hand-picked (yes, you may now use the Hitler salute). Every once in a while a human with dissenting views makes it through security and asks all those questions the press aren't allowed to ask because they'll lose their jobs. Media censorship is a _fact_ in this country. (I work in media; I know.) Anyway, this guy or gal will get through, speak their peace, and be celebrated on YouTube for a few days after they're carted out. But what the rest of the world must see is happy Americans just loving this amazing dangerously unbalanced dickweed of a protodictator. (Let's see if your censorship program flags that.)
Posted by: harihead, November 16, 2007, 5:57pm; Reply: 77
Might have been me. I'm not used to being able to modify other peoples post, and more than once I've hit "modify" instead of "quote."
And I generally abbreviate the quotes to the bit that's relevant to my own post.
Now I'm puzzled. The Censorship option _is_ off (clear). Kevin, did you change my words? What I tried to say is that
The President can't be a major dick on his own. That's D-I-C-K (in case I get censored again.)
What it now says is "The President can't be a major
private on his own."
I tried to edit the post for a missing word right after and couldn't. So who was revising this? The site? Kevin? An American toady cleaning up my post for the President?
Are we all clear what I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?
Posted by: BlueMeanie, November 16, 2007, 8:17pm; Reply: 78
Are we all clear what I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?
I think I understand. ;D
Posted by: Sandra, November 16, 2007, 8:27pm; Reply: 79
Now I'm puzzled. The Censorship option _is_ off (clear). Kevin, did you change my words? What I tried to say is that The President can't be a major dick on his own. That's D-I-C-K (in case I get censored again.)
What it now says is "The President can't be a major private on his own."
I tried to edit the post for a missing word right after and couldn't. So who was revising this? The site? Kevin? An American toady cleaning up my post for the President?
Are we all clear what I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?
For some reason d i c k always comes out as private. As in private part. So no need for paranoia. Censored or not I really find it hard to follow what your logic is. I'm not being an a**, I guess I'm just stupid. But then I do get turned off when names like Hitler are bandied about so lightly.
Posted by: harihead, November 17, 2007, 5:41pm; Reply: 80
This little jewel might be appropriate to our discussion:
Bush Blair - Endless Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nupdcGwIG-gSandra, I by no means use the parallel with Hitler lightly. What is happening in this country is chilling. I suggest you look a little more closely at what Congress is doing. Look at their tactics (such as passing bills at midnight on a Friday to minimize media exposure), the type of bills they pass and the ones they let fail. Step #1 is to get informed.
Dr. Lawrence Britt has done a well-regarded study of the growth of fascism in America. This link covers his 14 characteristics common to the fascist regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet. It includes links to articles supporting each of his contentions:
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htmThere's a lot of links here, but you should read up on what the so-called Patriot Act did to our civil liberties. I'd start with the Analysis section:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/USAPA.htmlThis article does a nice summary of this trend starting back in 1996:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/theOtherWar.htmlMy sister, by the way, is on the front lines of the "War on Terror"--trying to anticipate biochemical warfare. In her direct experience, this Act made her job
worse. It requires tons of paperwork instead of the practical procedures, which she'd been busy implementing before the Act passed. (Remember how the new Homeland Security rules fouled-up Katrina rescue efforts.) All her suggestions of direct ways our food, water, and public health could be at risk of terrorist attack have yet to be acted upon years after she identified them. Is our government serious about keeping us safe?
There's also this, just released yesterday: "The Evangelical Christian Takeover of the Military"
http://www.alternet.org/asoldierspeaks/67385/?page=1 - a well-written heartfelt article by a retired Lt. Col. This isn't hype or hysteria. Check out this paragraph, about what our own Congress did:
"the House of Representatives, with little public notice, passed a chilling bill that undermines enforcement of the First Amendment's separation of church and state. The Public Expression of Religion Act, H.R. 2679, provides that attorneys who successfully challenge government actions that violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment shall not be entitled to recover attorney's fees. According to The Washington Post, the purpose of this bill is to prevent suits challenging unconstitutional government actions advancing religion."
These are all verifiable facts. The deal is, we're being told that everything is okay, we're the best, we're #1, etc. etc. and the country that we grew up in is becoming increasingly corrupt. We're going to be in a world of hurt if we don't demand accountable behavior from our elected representatives.
Posted by: Sandra, November 17, 2007, 10:34pm; Reply: 81
Actually, I think Step One would be to get informed by individuals who do not already have some sort of agenda. Or to be informed by a variety of sources that speak to both sides of an issue. But that's just me. I can most definitely find hundreds of sources backing up or discounting everything that you say. Getting informed is a tricky business. Do it well. Reading alarmist literature probably isn't the best way.
I don't discount that this administration has major issues. I've done criticizing myself. I'm not hiding my head in the sand as most of America isn't either. There is a general unhappiness and unrest going on in this country. Doesn't that say anything to you? People are not stupid. They know more of what's going on than you give them credit for.
As for Dr. Britt. While his list is interesting, its also very superficial. If you want to see the real gap between this government and an actual fascist government, do some real research. But then I'm not about to sit here and needlessly try to refute liberal fundamentalist dogma just as I wouldn't waste my time trying to pick apart what's wrong with right wing fundamentalist extremist beliefs. Could you post something pertaining to the background of Dr. Britt? I'm not finding much about him.
I said I understood people's issues with this county when I started this thread. I also said I wasn't annoyed because of peoples issues with the politics of this country, yet the massive generalizations against its people. But that's besides the point. Anyway, I choose not to harp on how disgusting this country is because, well for one thing, it's not horrible to live in, the majority of people in it want change, and I know its potential to be great. We're coming into an election year and I'd rather hope and work for change than hold onto the notion that we're becoming the Fourth Reich.
Every government has its corruptions. If you think we are any different from any other powerful government now or through the ages then you are deluding yourself. To constantly say you're ashamed to live here or that it's terrible to live here right now is not indicative of how most Americans really feel. Be proud that your actions can actually bring about change. Yes, it's easier said than done, but at least it can be done. Get out and spread the word on your favorite candidate before another one gets in that you think will continue to lead this country, with all its sheep into the throws of a fascist dictatorship.
Posted by: harihead, November 18, 2007, 2:08am; Reply: 82
Thank you for the basic primer on intelligent research. I think I can grasp the basics.
I have been actively involved in the last 2 elections, campaigning by phone and on foot, door to door. I'm not just sitting around complaining, I'm actively involved. If you are too, good for you!
Posted by: Sandra, November 18, 2007, 4:14am; Reply: 83
Well I didn't mean to annoy you or anything. It's just that if you post strong statements you should expect strong reactions to those statements. I'm only expressing how I see things. If I did it in a way that was less than nice, I apologize. My friends and I getter rather heated when we debate, but it's all for the good. No harm intended. I do think it's rather short sighted to compare Bush to Hitler on any level though and it does tend to get to me. As does the implicaton that our country is headed toward fascism. I'm just weary of this kind of thinking in this day and age. With all the information available to us and with all the resources at our fingertips I think it's rather insulting to say that the American people are going to be that easily duped. But again, that is MY opinion. I could very well be way wrong. I'm just debating here is all. Again, sorry if you were offended.
I do find the American youth a little scary though. I mean, the trend of self absorption due to technology is disturbing. So if that's our future, then who knows what's in store.
Posted by: adamzero, November 20, 2007, 1:40am; Reply: 84
I think Kevin's on to something about the historical reaction to Bush 100 years from now. Even if you disagree with the Neo-Cons they've been able to map out their view of history that we'll be dealing with for the next 100 years. But they weren't stupid. The point may not have been to "win" the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. It was to be able to deploy hundreds of thousands of troops surrounding Iran, on the border with Syria (surrounding it with Israel) and at China's back door. If Asia is the future, the U.S. Empire has its foot firmly planted on the continent (in much more strategic areas than Vietnam).
Of course the U.S. Empire has simply cribbed the playbook of the British Empire and is doing the bidding of the international money/commodities cartels that run the planet.
That's what makes me so mad about Dylan doing that damned Cadillac Escalade ad! Our only freedom is weaning ourselves as a nation from foreign credit and oil (and the Escalade, though made in the US, represents everything that's wrong with our gashog, look-how-big-my-car-is culture). Shame on you, Bob! Masters of War, my a**!
Posted by: Kevin, November 20, 2007, 12:45pm; Reply: 85
Bang on Adamzero. Invade the neighbours and surround Iran, force it into a conflict and arms race it has no hope of winning, decry them as agressors for doing so and invade. There is a beauty to it.
And lets not forget the endless benefits to Isreal. Now it's no longer an Israeli-Palenstine issue, it's "A War On Terror" and the gloves are off.
Posted by: pc31, November 22, 2007, 1:57am; Reply: 86
all this corrupt politics gab is getting me excited.....i love the passion and convictions played out at this forum...the variety of countries and politics are a grace...we share information and opinions with out true aggession towards one another(well most times)lol...no other forums i visit has such a cross section of people interacting...consider us lucky....
tomorrow is thanksgiving day...i never really understood this day to be frank...what are the indians thankful for??????i am kidding no debates on that front please....
the truth is american is letting the politicians f*** us out of our rights and we need to nip this ticking time bomb in the butt,so my kids can live in a better not bitter world...i tend to group,like we were taught,group similar things together but on a personal level i make my mind up on individuals not groups....
Posted by: 829 (Guest), December 3, 2007, 10:10pm; Reply: 87
True. I once heard Bill O'Reilly say on TV that a lot of thing are going the wrong way in America and that if they wouldn't be careful, "America could end up just like The Netherlands". I was very insulted when I heard that.
O'Reilly is a right-wing conservative alarmist (and I'm being nice) He hates and fears all thing Liberal. Many Americans cant stand the guy--I count myself among them. Dont fool yourself into thinking he's the mouthpiece of a nation (or for that matter, any of the other Stormtroopers on FoxNews) We know him for what he truly is : a self-promoting, intellectual thug and George Bush defender.
Posted by: alexis, December 10, 2007, 11:50pm; Reply: 88
It's all money. If O'Reilly could have made more money (plus its equivalent in bling and babes, I'm sure) selling the Democratic product, he would have done so.
It's all money. The Republican agenda is to put more money in the hands of the very rich, at the expense of the not very rich (the middle class in the USA is on the way to rapidly becoming of historical interest only). The Democrats at this point know they are against this, but they really don't know much else about themselves or what they stand for. But hey, it's a start.
It's all money.
Signed,
Harihead's favorite politician cum business executive
Posted by: Joost, September 8, 2008, 8:26pm; Reply: 89
This is from an e-mail I got from my uncle (I obviously translated it though) during his trip through the US (he hired a winnebago and drove from SF to NY).
Quoted Text
We really learned to appreciate Americans these past few weeks. They're very friendly and helpful people and always in for a conversation.
Last Saturday we were in the middle of Memphis and ended up on the wrong side of the road. I had to turn the winnebago in the middle of the road, which took quite a while. But nobody honked, nobody gave me ugly looks, nobody gave me the finger... The only fingers I got were thumbs up when I finally managed to turn the damn thing in the right direction.
I just thought it would be nice if someone posted anything positive about Americans for a change... ;)
Posted by: fendertele, September 8, 2008, 9:08pm; Reply: 90
Yeah from what ive seen, there humour is spot on and the general mood, and most of them are happy to talk too you, which in contrast to scotlands, if you look at someone its " who you looking at " or if you say hello to someone or say anything nice to them you get stupid comments like " are you gay " just for saying awright to another guy :-/.
Also the irish are lovely people i used to go to ireland and be amazed at the amount of people out walking the streets at night without a care in the world, walking down the road every car honked there horn when they passed and also strangers would say good morning and hello when you passed them.
Posted by: Jane, September 8, 2008, 9:37pm; Reply: 91
I also agree that Americans are very friendly people. When I was in the USA, everywhere I asked for help (in a bookshop, in the street, at the library) all the people were willing to help. The funny thing was that young men took pains to demonstrate that they meant only help and nothing but help. That was very amusing to me, I wanted to tell them, Relax, guys, I`m not gonna shout!
Posted by: Geoff, September 10, 2008, 1:01pm; Reply: 92
I just thought it would be nice if someone posted anything positive about Americans for a change... ;)
I think people often inflate a straightforward dislike of particular American policies or administrations into a generalized contempt for America as a whole. It's cheap and easy to do, and will earn you some cachet from leftists and (pseudo) intellectuals, including American ones. But I've lived in America off and on many times over the past twenty years, and Americans as a whole do not conform to the cliches put out about them any more than the citizens of other countries fit the commonplaces circulating about
them. Anti-Americanism is just simple resentment or political populism (usually self-servingly opportunistic) masquerading as moral superiority.
Posted by: The Dude, September 15, 2008, 10:06am; Reply: 93
I've been to the States twice, once to Orlando and once to Vegas. I don't have any problems with American people (except the ones who ask me if I know a friend of theirs in London, 180 miles away from me and believe me, that's happened!) as I've always been treated with respect whilst holidaying.
Among my friends and acquanitances though, America isn't a popular country. There is a lot of anti-American sentiment in the UK, most Brits believe that waging war is America's way of learning geography. I don't tend to subscribe to that theory as I believe that a country's people shouldn't be held responsible for the decisions its government makes.
Posted by: Bobber, September 15, 2008, 10:14am; Reply: 94
I believe that a country's people shouldn't be held responsible for the decisions its government makes.
That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.
Posted by: BlueMeanie, September 15, 2008, 10:21am; Reply: 95
That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.
Well, that depends on whether it's governing body sticks to the policies that got it elected in the first place.
Posted by: Bobber, September 15, 2008, 10:27am; Reply: 96
Well, that depends on whether it's governing body sticks to the policies that got it elected in the first place.
See. I told you it was debatable. ;D
Posted by: pc31, September 15, 2008, 10:46am; Reply: 97
well i wanna just say they are living in a stolen country from the get go...americans came from everywheres else...i bet noone else can boast that!!!
the policies were meant for the strong willed and healthy minded people in the dawning of the country but some how greed and power reshaped us....all i can say is stop the boat i want to get off....
Posted by: BlueMeanie, September 15, 2008, 10:55am; Reply: 98
well i wanna just say they are living in a stolen country from the get go...americans came from everywheres else...i bet noone else can boast that!!!
Possibly Australians?
Posted by: pc31, September 15, 2008, 11:08am; Reply: 99
point well taken but i would say many aussies had no choice in the matter unlike here..... :X
Posted by: Joost, September 15, 2008, 11:39am; Reply: 100
Posted by: Bobber, September 15, 2008, 11:46am; Reply: 101
Canada. Hell, even the first Brits may have come from the mainland of Europe.
Posted by: pc31, September 15, 2008, 11:52am; Reply: 102
who has more diverse nationalities???
Posted by: alexis, September 15, 2008, 5:21pm; Reply: 103
That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.
And actually since 50.01% of voters decide who gets into office, it really isn't fair to tar all with the same brush (new brush for me please).
And even more actually ( :-/ ), more than 50% of voters voted AGAINST the current president in his first election, so democracy doesn't always have the effect one hopes it would.
Posted by: Bobber, September 15, 2008, 5:42pm; Reply: 104
And even more actually ( :-/ ), more than 50% of voters voted AGAINST the current president in his first election, so democracy doesn't always have the effect one hopes it would.
Then your democracy is no democracy at all, I guess.
Posted by: alexis, September 15, 2008, 6:18pm; Reply: 105
Then your democracy is no democracy at all, I guess.
You think? I wouldn't have thought that ours was the only system where a non-majority can direct policy. For example, I think in most countries the Constitution can't be changed by a simple majority, but rather requires "super majority" of the electorate to change it. So I would respectfully disagree that this makes the system overall "no democracy at all".
Posted by: Bobber, September 15, 2008, 6:52pm; Reply: 106
On the other hand, maybe there is no real democratic system in the right sense of the word.
Posted by: alexis, September 15, 2008, 8:36pm; Reply: 107
On the other hand, maybe there is no real democratic system in the right sense of the word.
That's probably a good thing, otherwise 2 could always gang up on 1. There's a phrase that floats around now and then, that we all need guaranteed protection from the "tyranny of the majority". In this country that protection is afforded by the Constitution and its Amendments (government can't start its own religion, no slavery, that sort of thing).
Posted by: Sandra, September 16, 2008, 12:17am; Reply: 108
I think people often inflate a straightforward dislike of particular American policies or administrations into a generalized contempt for America as a whole. It's cheap and easy to do, and will earn you some cachet from leftists and (pseudo) intellectuals, including American ones. But I've lived in America off and on many times over the past twenty years, and Americans as a whole do not conform to the cliches put out about them any more than the citizens of other countries fit the commonplaces circulating about them. Anti-Americanism is just simple resentment or political populism (usually self-servingly opportunistic) masquerading as moral superiority.
Were you born in the States? Or Canada? For some reason I thought you were an American living in Canada. But you also seem a bit British! Just curious! :) :)
Posted by: Geoff, September 16, 2008, 4:09pm; Reply: 109
Were you born in the States? Or Canada? For some reason I thought you were an American living in Canada. But you also seem a bit British! Just curious! :) :)
Sorry if I left the wrong impression: I'm Canadian, in fact. Most of my family is from the UK (Ireland and Scotland on my mother's side, England and a
whole lot of other places on my father's), and I've spent a lot of time on the west coast at various points between Vancouver and Los Angeles. I'm a mongrel and a vagrant, really. ;D
Posted by: Sandra, September 17, 2008, 12:34am; Reply: 110
Sorry if I left the wrong impression: I'm Canadian, in fact. Most of my family is from the UK (Ireland and Scotland on my mother's side, England and a whole lot of other places on my father's), and I've spent a lot of time on the west coast at various points between Vancouver and Los Angeles. I'm a mongrel and