Congrats California on legalising gay marriage! - Print Topic

A bit late in posting but I figured someone else would have mentioned it by now.

Way to go, California! I hope many more states will follow suit. :)

Yes, let's see if it will last this time around.

I don't see what the big deal is (I mean the anti-gay marriage issue). Why do people care what two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors? Not only that but people say that god wouldn't want it that way... Well if you really believe that then those people will have to oneday answer to god so let them worry about it.

I think it will stick this time too. Which I think is great 8)

yeah, well since massachusetts legalized it (once the "Bay State" now we're the "Gay State") the sky hasn't fallen and the world hasn't collapsed in on itself, so i dont think legalizing it was such a bad thing now, dont think?

we're still the most liberal state in the Union

Being that we are still the most liberal state in the union, it is hard to believe a few years ago we voted no on gay marriage! But like I said I think this time around it will stick.

oh no, i meant massachusetts is the most liberal state in the Union.

and we were founded by a bunch of tight asses, even the british kicked them out

Oh sorry I thought you were talking about California :)

Thumbs up for California!

Quoted from Joost

Thumbs up for California!

;) ?

You pervert. ;)

I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....

Quoted from HeatherBoo

I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....

I think it is what gets the hormones pumping, little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Although, from a purely biological Darwinian point of view, hetero males should be happy that there are homosexual males - that is less competitiion for passing their genes down to the next generation.

Maybe it's just coincidence, but ... at least in the USA, the Religious Right is the main leader of the fight against homosexuality. Darwinianly speaking, one must wonder if there is some reason they are not looking out for their own genetic interests.

Perhaps some hyposexuality is associated with that group?

(In spanish ... no cojones!)

Quoted from alexis

little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Great line. ;D

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?

Quoted from Geoff

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?

Amen to that!

That's cool that California legalized gay marriages. I have a brother in law who is gay.....my husband's younger brother, Jay, and this doesn't bother me. Good for California. Oh, by the way.............Jay is one of the BEST waiters in town..........par excellent!!!!

No doubt among others, I've noticed that since that California decision came down all those Republicans who were such fervent advocates of "states' rights" because they don't like the power of federal government are starting to look a lot more fondly at Washington, or at least the Supreme Court. So here we go.... :-/

Don't get too excited! This decision was made by the California Supreme Court (in a 4 to 3 ruling). So, guess what, not everyone had such a great reaction to the court "abandoning its role as an objective interpreter of the law and instead legislating from the bench." So, the decision will go to the people.

The November ballot will include a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to unions between men and women. So if more than half of California voters approve the measure, it could neutralize last month's state Supreme Court ruling.

While I AGREE with the decision of the court, I'm not sure if I agree with how it was done. The Judicial branch is supposed to INTERPRET the laws, not make them.

From the LA Times:
The three dissenting justices argued that it was up to the electorate or the Legislature to decide whether gays should be permitted to marry.

"In my view, California should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call their unions marriage," Justice Carol A. Corrigan wrote in the first sentence of her dissent.

"But I, and this court, must acknowledge that a majority of Californians hold a different view and have explicitly said so by their vote. This court can overrule a vote of the people only if the Constitution compels us to do so. Here, the Constitution does not."

Justice Marvin R. Baxter, joined by Justice Ming W. Chin, said the ruling "creates the opportunity for further judicial extension of this perceived constitutional right into dangerous territory."

"Who can say that in 10, 15 or 20 years, an activist court might not rely on the majority's analysis to conclude, on the basis of a perceived evolution in community values, that the laws prohibiting polygamous and incestuous marriages were no longer constitutionally justified?" Baxter wrote.

Okay, Baxter's probably being an alarmist here, but he makes a valid point. If you can look at it objectively, without any agenda getting in the way. Anyway, I say leave it to the people to decide. I have faith in my fellow Californians! I think...

Hmmm, interesting. I have to say that while I agree with gay marriage I think that everything should be put to a fair vote. I have a hard time believing that the Republican vote in Cali is very large, though. So it will all probably work out for the best.

All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.

Quoted from tkitna

All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.

But how would it affect you if gay marriage would be legalized in your state? And if you don't believe in something doesn't mean you can't tolerate it, right?

Maybe the thought of two men having sex seems disgusing to you but well... The thought of people over 70 having sex doesn't seem like a very pretty picture to me either, but you won't hear me say that people over 70 shouldn't be allowed to be married...

Everyone is allowed their own opinions. That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Quoted from HeatherBoo

Everyone is allowed their own opinions. That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Quoted from Jane

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Sorry, I sincerely apologize if it seems like I am that way. I can assure you that I'm not. But this is just a subject that I'm very passionate about. And about the thing in the Beach Boys topic, well... Maybe I came off a little harsh, but I hope you see what I meant there.

You should realize that just like Tkitna I too am just expressing my opinion. If he can do it, so can I, right? And I'm not saying Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion. It's just that homophobia makes me sad. Life is hard enough as it is, we shouldn't waste our time on telling people who aren't harming anyone that how they live or what they do is wrong. I have a few friends who are homosexual and I know that their love for their partners isn't a lesser kind of love than the love between a woman and a man. But if you tell a homosexual couple that they don't have the same rights as a heterosexual couple, that's exactly what you're basically telling them: that their love isn't as 'real' as heterosexual love.

Joost!!! You are very nice! and i know that we are all very touchy at times and sensitive. And on that subject you give very good, well-founded arguments, cause everybody has the right to be happy, to love and to be loved. every living creature. Why deprive people of love? Love is what matters, love is what everybody seeks in their lives, love is what gives sense to one`s life. Why be cruel?

Quoted from Joost

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

Quoted from Joost

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

I agree. :)

Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my a** otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.

Quoted from Joost

I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

.

There's SO much more to human nature than this as to what makes a person feel comfortable or uncomfortable. You can't fully understand a human being from one statement or one feeling. And to expect people to only feel the way you feel they should feel or think the way you think they should think on such matters is just as intolerant an attitude to take on as the one you're taking issue with.

Not to say that this is what you're implying. I'm just saying that if you live with other human beings, then you have to accept that people will have different ways of looking at things. This does not always mean they are bad or ignorant or phobic. You really don't know unless you take the time to know them. And if you find out that they think certain things or feel certain ways for reasons you don't agree with, you then have the choice to not associate with them. But at least there would be discussion and some sort of attempt to understand the individual based on more than a couple of statements.

Oh I wasn't coming down on anyone! I am happy that everyone is sharing their thoughts even if I do not agree with them. I just meant that we should all be happy that we can think for ourselves and not have to worry about getting in trouble for it.

And as time goes one, things change and people change. I think sometimes people get set in their ways (the way it was when they were young, what was acceptable then and what was not) and so that's why it takes time for things to change because some people are really against change. Now that the younger generation can vote and homosexuality has been more open during their lifetime, they are more willing to be for it rather than against it like the older generation who, when they were younger, it was not as accepted.

Quoted from Sandra

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

you're free to be christian,
OK, let me rephrase that to Christian or Jewish. 78% Of all Americans are Christian or Jewish... 100% of all senators are Christian or Jewish. So that's 30 million atheists, 6 million Buddhists, 1 million Muslims and 1 million Hindus without any representatives. Or a chance to ever get a high political position. They're even using it against Obama now that his father was born a Muslim.

patriotic
Remember what happend to the Dixie Chicks?

and heterosexual
See above.

I know that not nearly all Americans are that close minded, but fact is that life is easier if you're christian, patriotic and heterosexual.

Okay, I see we're coming from two entirely different places here so I'm just going to bow out. I totally respect where you're coming from and hope you don't judge me on my nationality. Yes, this country is not perfect, but then what country is? Especially one as huge. I just don't get what people want. Personally, I think it's going in the right direction. Has been for quite some time. Slowly YES and with many bumps along the way! Especially these last, uh, eight or so years. But again, it's the people that count and the people are becoming more enlightened and are slowly seeing to it that things are moving forward.

Remember, this country isn't that old and if you stack its history up against any other country I feel we'd all come out a bit tarnished. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

PS
The Dixie Chicks are just obnoxious anyway and they play to an audience that they KNOW doesn't believe what they believe in. I think they're hypocrites in that sense and it was probably more of a publicity stunt than we realize. There's been plenty of artists that have protested and haven't had that kind of negative feedback. Part of the reason is how it was done and by who. There's a big picture to be looked at there. Doubtful that Bob Dylan or someone of his talent and reputation would have gotten the same flack. But then he would have done it in a way more intelligent way. Not like some chick trying to be hip for the sake of record sales and coolness.

Quoted from Sandra

Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

I hope you're right. I'll be a bit more optimistic if Obama will be elected.

But we're getting too far off topic and I should really try to be a bit less offensive... Sorry for that.

You weren't being offensive at all! It was a great discussion from everyone involved. And great discussions sometimes veer off topic I guess! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm hope it was okay that I butt in in the middle of the conversation!

BTW, I realize that I'm probably way too much of an idealist when it comes to wishing the best from people. Which is weird because most of the time I don't feel I have much faith in mankind! Much of the time I feel like a big hypocrite myself when I go on about things getting better! Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it or something.

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

Quoted from Sandra

You weren't being offensive at all!

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees? ;)

Quoted from DaveRam

I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "Fags will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

They pick up on the couple of passages in the Bible that do mention it Joost .
But Jesus himself never mentions it , his teachings are clear love thy neighbour and let he who is without sin cast the first stone .
Also it's not one of the Ten Commandments .Only adultery warrents such a condemnation .
For me the words of Jesus and the Ten Commandments indicate God and Jesus are indifferent to homosexuality they don't have a clearly expressed opinion on the matter .
So i take from that it's OK to love thy neighbour so long as it's not someone else's wife .
Clear as mud as they say .

Quoted from Joost

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees? ;)

Nah, I can get that at just about any other site I visit! And do. :-/

:)

Quoted from Joost

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "Fags will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

I'm pretty sure Allah doesn't teach his disciples to use car bombs and kill innocent people in his name either. There are lunatics in EVERY religion. And if there wasn't religion, there would STILL be lunatics that would hate other. They would just have to blame it on something else. And I think they would find something easily enough.

I tend to agree with this:

All ... religions show the same disparity between belief and practice, and each is safe till it tries to exclude the rest. Test each sect by its best or its worst as you will, by its high-water mark of virtue or its low-water mark of vice. But falsehood begins when you measure the ebb of any other religion against the flood-tide of your own. There is a noble and a base side to every history.-Thomas Wentworth Higginson

It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?

Quoted from Jane

It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?

I'm not an American so I can't speak for them, but I think that criticizing your own country and questioning every decision your government makes is the patriotic thing to do. If you truely care about your country, you're not going to let some guy who happens to be president for four years do to it whatever he wants. Your government is not your country. You don't have to be loyal to the politicians in charge to be loyal to your country.

I think this is an idealistic point of view. If things depended on people ,on the public the world would be different. In fact, not a lot depends on whether you let those in power do what they want or not. They will pursue their policy without asking your permission. People were against the war but the troops invaded Iraq, you see. Though on some issues, such as human rights, i thought America was ahead of other countries.

I was reading the Gospel According To Matthew this afternoon and i just can't see from what Jesus said that homosexuality was an issue .
Adultery yes he is clear about that been wrong . He speaks about that during "The Sermon On The Mount "
But he does'nt mention anything about homosexuals during his most famous speech to us .
So i don't understand why this issue is such a hot topic ?

Quoted from Sandra

Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my a** otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.

remember, a government that gets to involved inevidably farks things up for the rest of us and makes it worse than it was. example: public education (at least in MA)

as for jesus and whatnot, even though i'm buddhist now, i was catholic not long ago so i still know my religious crap. If anyone ever tells you that Jesus said it was wrong for whoever to be with whoever, counter with, "jesus said to love thy neighbor, why won't you love me" and then proceed to walk into a gay, muslim bar :P

Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent. I dont want my children around that especially in my home. Its bad enough that society pressures everybody into accepting it (along with it being ok to not believe in God), when in truth, they should be pushing for people to get to church. The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

Ok, feel free to have fun with this now.

Quoted from tkitna

Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

Homosexual people are born homosexual. There's no artificial process that makes them that way. So homosexuality is not unnatural. And even if it would be unnatural: so frickin what? Everything we do now that we didn't do 1000 years ago is unnatural. There's nothing natural about driving a car. There's nothing natural about staring at a computer screen every day from 9 to 5. There's nothing natural about wearing a suit and tie.

Quoted from tkitna

I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent.

Wow, I think that's just shocking... I really do. Homophobia is a form of discrimination and this is, in my book, a very serious case of discrimination. That's an extremely offensive, insulting thing to do to another human being.

Quoted from tkitna

I dont want my children around that especially in my home.

You know homosexuality isn't contagious, right? Of course you're free to raise your children the way you think is right, but what good is sticking your head in the sand ever going to do?

Quoted from tkitna

(along with it being ok to not believe in God)

So if people don't believe in God, they should be forced to?

Quoted from tkitna

The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

The towers didn't fall because of a lack of religion. Quite the contrary actually. And I don't think you can say that things were that much better in the Middle Ages, when the church was in charge.

Quoted from Joost

Homosexual people are born homosexual. There's no artificial process that makes them that way. So homosexuality is not unnatural. And even if it would be unnatural: so frickin what? Everything we do now that we didn't do 1000 years ago is unnatural. There's nothing natural about driving a car. There's nothing natural about staring at a computer screen every day from 9 to 5. There's nothing natural about wearing a suit and tie.

You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Pretty much states its unnatural right there.

Quoted Text

Wow, I think that's just shocking... I really do. Homophobia is a form of discrimination and this is, in my book, a very serious case of discrimination. That's an extremely offensive, insulting thing to do to another human being.

Well, if discrimination is trying to protect my children from a certain behavior that is not normal, so be it.

Quoted Text

You know homosexuality isn't contagious, right? Of course you're free to raise your children the way you think is right, but what good is sticking your head in the sand ever going to do?

Nothings contagious if you stay far enough away from it.

Quoted Text

So if people don't believe in God, they should be forced to?

Force is a strong word. People that dont believe will be judged soon enough.

Quoted Text

The towers didn't fall because of a lack of religion. Quite the contrary actually.

More political than anything in my opinion. I'm no Muslim expert, but unless somebody can scan where the Quran (sp?) stated that Americans were evil,,,i'm not buying it. Thats the same as saying Hitler was on a religious conquest during the war.

Quoted from tkitna

You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Just because I don't share your religious beliefs doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

Quoted from tkitna

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So far, nobody has been able to prove to me that the Bible (or the Qur'an, or the Torah, or the Bhagavad Gita) was written by God and not by human beings.

Quoted from tkitna

Force is a strong word. People that dont believe will be judged soon enough.

You believe that we will be judged by our beliefs. I believe we will be judged by our actions and by how we treat other people.

Quoted from tkitna

I'm no Muslim expert, but unless somebody can scan where the Quran (sp?) stated that Americans were evil,,,i'm not buying it.

Of course 9-11 was a religious and not a political thing. These were suicide attacts. The terrorists gave their lives because they were convinced that they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife.

Joost, I like a decent debate as much as the other person, but I need to concentrate on other things right now. With a topic like this, you have to expect somebody is going to look at it from another perspective. I just dont believe in it and never will. It's ok for us to disagree on this one. No matter what we type or feel, the other will not change their mind. I have to say peace and thanks for your point of view.

Quoted from tkitna

You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Pretty much states its unnatural right there.

Leviticus is the Old Testament. The old covenant. Jesus' teachings are what Christians base their religion on. The New Testament. You are supposed to follow His word. No? There are many things in the Old Testament that Jesus directly contradicts or outright abolishes. For example:

Old Testament: Leviticus 24:19-20: If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Jesus, on the other hand, stated:

New Testament: Matthew 5:38�39: You have heard that it was said, �An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.� But I tell you, do not resist an evil person.

Also:

Hebrews 8:13: In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:6-7: Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better than the old covenant, since it is founded on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

The New Testament indicates that Jesus Christ established a new relationship between God and his followers. Where does Jesus mention anything about homosexuality being a sin or an abomination? As a Christian, you need to read Jesus' teachings. From that, you will see that a true Christian is tolerant to ALL people just as Jesus was Himself. Jesus' message was love.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." -Jesus (John 13:34-35)

If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? -Jesus(Matthew 5:43-47 )

"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. "But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. -Jesus (Matthew 6:14-15)

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." -Jesus(Matthew 7:12)

And my favorite:

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. -Jesus (Matthew 7:1-5)

What can be clearer than that?? Any Christian claiming to be justified in hating or turning away others on ANY basis by quoting the Old Testament just does not understand Christianity or Jesus. As a Christian, Jesus' teachings are what you should be following and if there is one thing that Jesus talks about constantly it is TOLERANCE! He teaches his followers to love ALL people and that they are not to judge ANYONE.

From Wiki:

The Old Covenant, containing a single, unified law code, was a legal, conditional covenant requiring perfect and complete obedience of all those under it; that, on the one hand, it promised life to all who obeyed it, and, on the other hand, it pronounced a curse upon all its transgressors; that it, therefore, inescapably brought death to all who sought to be justified by it-- not because of a deficiency in the law (itself "holy, just, and good"), but because of the sinful inability of those under its charge; and that, for this reason, it is variously described as a "killing letter," a "ministry of death,� and a "ministry of condemnation" -- its distinct purpose being to illumine sin so as to make manifest the Israelites' and, by implication, all men's need for a redeemer.

In contrast to the Old Covenant, the New Covenant (by virtue of Christ's perfect obedience to the law, as well as His bearing of its curse) promises only blessing to all those who belong to it; and that this second covenant, the "everlasting covenant" enacted upon better promises, has thus brought to realization all that was anticipated in the covenants made with Abraham, Moses, and David.

Under the New Covenant, God's people, having entered the age of fulfillment, now stand as mature sons; that having been set free from the tutelage and bondage of the law code written upon tablets of stone, they have subsequently been placed under the Spirit's management -- having the new and greater Lawgiver's own law now written upon their hearts.

As a result, though many of the individual commandments given in the decalogue and the eternal principles upon which the Mosaic Covenant was founded still apply to those under the New Covenant, God's people are now totally free from the Old Covenant as a covenant; that the usefulness of the Mosaic commands is not therefore to be denied, only that these are now understood to come to us through Christ, the mediator of the New Covenant; and that, in particular, with the obsolescence of the Old Covenant, the fourth commandment, the seventh day Sabbath observance, is no longer obligatory --- its relevance now pointing to that rest enjoyed by all those in Christ.

Quoted from tkitna

Joost, I like a decent debate as much as the other person, but I need to concentrate on other things right now. With a topic like this, you have to expect somebody is going to look at it from another perspective. I just dont believe in it and never will. It's ok for us to disagree on this one. No matter what we type or feel, the other will not change their mind. I have to say peace and thanks for your point of view.

OK, that's cool.

Believe whatever you want, all I can do is ask you that if you can't approve of homosexuality, please at least try to tolerate it. Discrimination never leads to anything positive.

Lets end this with a little bit of humor.

;D

Good one... 8)

I always read Leviticus to be the priestly code and not really applicable to us underlings .
Most European christians don't for example go in for male circumcision and the eating of pork and rabbit is wide spread .
I don't know anybody that follows whats written in Leviticus to the letter .
I can see that incest is wrong .
But the rest of it seems arcane to me , i just don't follow the rituals and i doubt many people who call themselves christians do .
My family is christian (Methodist) and only one of us is circumcised for medical reasons , so does that mean that the three of us that are intact won't be going to heaven ? as we have not followed that law contained in Leviticus .
I come back to The Ten Commandments which does not mention homosexulality and Jesus not mentioning it .
Much of what is written in the Bible is the word of man and not the word of god .
For me Jesus is the main man and if he does'nt make a judgement on it , neither will i , i will carry on loving my gay friends and all the people i care about .
I just refuse to twist my faith into hate .

Quoted from DaveRam

I just refuse to twist my faith into hate.

I'm not religious at all, but if there were more people like you in the world Dave, it would be a much safer and happier place.

As long as Coldplay are banned!

Quoted from BlueMeanie

I'm not religious at all, but if there were more people like you in the world Dave, it would be a much safer and happier place.

As long as Coldplay are banned!

Well on that note i'm off to snog my picture of Brian Epstein and The Beatles :

All You Need Is love , Love Is all You Need

(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)

Quoted from tkitna

Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent. I dont want my children around that especially in my home. Its bad enough that society pressures everybody into accepting it (along with it being ok to not believe in God), when in truth, they should be pushing for people to get to church. The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

Ok, feel free to have fun with this now.

You are everything that is wrong with this world. You really have no idea how old-fashioned, ignorant and offensive what you just said is do you? Please, don't say anymore.

On another note, I agree with bluemeanie that coldplay should be banned !!

Quoted from legthi

You are everything that is wrong with this world.

Let's try to stick to arguments and avoid personal attacks... I think's it's been a healthy discussion so far.

Quoted from Joost

Let's try to stick to arguments and avoid personal attacks... I think's it's been a healthy discussion so far.

Joost how can you say that, when what tkitna said could easily be interpreted as an insult or a personal attack towards me, or any other member of the board?? I can take that out of my post if you like, but that would not make us fair, and from you're comments I feel you probably even agree with me on this one.

Quoted from legthi

Joost how can you say that, when what tkitna said could easily be interpreted as an insult or a personal attack towards me, or any other member of the board?? I can take that out of my post if you like, but that would not make us fair, and from you're comments I feel you probably even agree with me on this one.

I obviously very strongly disagree with some of Tkitna's opinions. However, you can respect a person even if you don't respect his opinions. For as far as I can remember, Tkitna has never resorted to nasty personal attacks or petty name calling on this board, so I think he deserves a civilized discussion.

Plus, I don't really feel like getting into the type of 'discussions' we used to have here when Wayne L was still around.

I'd actually be less insulted if Tkitna did call me petty names, because then it wouldn't mean anything as he doesn't know me personally, - I may as well be anybody.
What he stated was actually far worse than this in my opinion, and I see it as a completely unnessecary attack, as he demonstrated in his post what he did when he encountered a homosexual. I'm sorry but that's really offensive. I believe there would be uproar if I said I do the same thing to black people in my home - this is really no different. what he said was far worse than my comments.
Oh and just for the record, i'm not gay myself...just tolerant and sane ;)

Quoted from legthi

what he said was far worse than my comments.

No, what you said wasn't worse. But why make it personal? I'd rather keep this discussion substancial. Whenever you disagree with someone, isn't it more interesting to know what his reasons are than to just let him know that he's not making sense?

This Liberal Christian is ok with what tkitna said , it's a view held by many , i just don't agree with it .
He's been honest .
He asked the gay person to leave his house , he did'nt kill them , which indicates to me he's not totally rabid .

(jumping)

Yeah we all have freedom of speech and can speak our opinions, but tkitna can't dish out that rubbish all over the board and not expect someone to pick up on it, or try and get back at them for it. Ok I regret saying what I did about him (although I still believe it), even though it was no more personal than what he said. It wasn't! I'm trying not to make this personal, but thats hard to do when he demonstrates hate and discrimination in his post(s) that so clearly offends many people. I'm done with all the personal stuff, but my original points remain.

And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself so none of the religious stuff tkitna said applies to me, or even means anything. If someone wants to quote scriptures written by PEOPLE as 'proof' why something is wrong, fair enough, go ahead, but don't expect any of us to take it seriously.

Quoted from legthi

And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself

Of course you aren't, cause you're board member #666. ;D

This not so goody goody liberal christian as rolled a fat one (smoking3) , i don't think people will ever agree on this one .
All i know is i'm not changing my view i love my gay friends (thumbsup)

Quoted from DaveRam

i love my gay friends (thumbsup)

And just how much do you love your gay friends, Dave?  ;D


Sorry for that.  :B

Hey, it wasn't worse than the 'thumbs up' comment, right?

Right?  :P

Quoted from tkitna

Lets end this with a little bit of humor.

I really wanted to see what you thought about what I was trying to say in my post. I know it was long winded and boring, but I thought if we're going to use a certain book as a standard of belief than we should look at more than just one passage. What do you make of the rest of it? I mean, do you see my point as valid or not? And if not, why? I'm only just wondering. I mean, we can end the discussion and I understand, but I was just curious as to your thoughts. Which I will respect no matter what I personally feel myself. :)

I think both Joost and Tkitna have handled their differences with dignity and at the same time presented views which can enlighten both sides. A lesson in itself to be had. :)

Quoted from legthi

And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself so none of the religious stuff tkitna said applies to me, or even means anything. If someone wants to quote scriptures written by PEOPLE as 'proof' why something is wrong, fair enough, go ahead, but don't expect any of us to take it seriously.

This is where I think a lot of people fall short. Of course you don't have to believe in the bible or any religious work, but it behooves all of us to have an awareness of what people believe in and have some level of respect for it. To say people won't take it seriously is not the answer. How can a discussion ever be had or an agreement ever be made? I'm speaking globally here now.

"It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty."-Gandhi

Anyway, I personally think this discussion has been very healthy and I'm glad to have been able to read everyone's comments. :)

Quoted from legthi

Yeah we all have freedom of speech and can speak our opinions, but tkitna can't dish out that rubbish all over the board and not expect someone to pick up on it, or try and get back at them for it. Ok I regret saying what I did about him (although I still believe it), even though it was no more personal than what he said. It wasn't! I'm trying not to make this personal, but thats hard to do when he demonstrates hate and discrimination in his post(s) that so clearly offends many people. I'm done with all the personal stuff, but my original points remain.

Hey Legthi, I apologize if I offended you (which is apparent). Actually, at the time of my story that I had posted earlier about asking that person to leave, it was more due to fear than hate and discrimination. I didnt know how to react and I didnt want my kids around it. Yes, I feel strongly about my stance and just like this thread, society also pushes me to change my thoughts. Why is that? Am I so wrong as to not to accept that lifestyle?

Quoted from Sandra

I really wanted to see what you thought about what I was trying to say in my post. I know it was long winded and boring, but I thought if we're going to use a certain book as a standard of belief than we should look at more than just one passage. What do you make of the rest of it? I mean, do you see my point as valid or not? And if not, why? I'm only just wondering. I mean, we can end the discussion and I understand, but I was just curious as to your thoughts. Which I will respect no matter what I personally feel myself. :)

Sandra, you brought up very valid points. As for my religious beliefs, I for some reason, have always taken the Old Testament as the actual meanings of God. I was taught that God, although an image of peace and love, was also stern to people who did not obey his will. The New Testament to me was always the teachings of Jesus who in turn took Gods lessons and (in another words) lightened them up. Meaning that people werent good enough to really follow the strict order that God commanded. As if they would fail regardless so Jesus added some loopholes in the rules. Even being Gods son, Jesus was allowed to be punished also, but alas, for our sins. I'm almost guaranteed to be wrong, but i've always felt deep down that it was better to follow Gods rules than the messengers even if it was Jesus, but thats my own personal ideal.

Quoted from Joost

And just how much do you love your gay friends, Dave?  ;D


Sorry for that.  :B

I love them a lot Joost . I had three but Andy who was my best friend was batterd to death in January of 2000
A kinder more centle person you could'nt  wish to meet .
To this day i can't believe people can be so cruel .
He was a smashing bloke , he was a record collector  i met him at a record fair , he knew more about music than anyone i ever knew .
The sad thing is , these kind of discussion's always paint gay people as somekind of perverts . I just don't see that  , he liked  men , where as i like women .
It was his preference and i  won't judge anyone on that , all i know is i miss him as do his family and friends

He would have laughed at this discussion he thought we were the queer buggers and reading through this he was probably right
(smile)

DaveRam, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I think many het people would be shocked by the number of gay people that are in their lives at this very moment and they don't know it-- decent, delightful people. I think the harm in denying they exist is the same harm in invalidating anyone for who they are, such as calling me dumb because I'm a woman (or any other male or female gender-bashing, or any racial epithet). These people are here and deserve to have the same ability to live their lives freely as people of another orientation. I only hope that, as people who are unused to the idea get more exposure to it, they will cease to be shocked and start to realize that gay people are just folks, same as them.

It was such a shock to lose a friend in that way harihead , i had some really great drunken times with him and boy could he drink .
(smile)

Quoted from tkitna

Am I so wrong as to not to accept that lifestyle?

I think it depends on the way you 'don't accept' it. If you throw someone out of your house just because he's homosexual, than yes, I think that's wrong. Cause then you're treating him like he's some kind of lesser human being who's not worthy of being in your presence. If you really can't accept it, than a better way of 'not accepting it' could have been for instance saying something like "Look, I don't understand or approve of whatever it is you do in your bedroom and to be honest it makes me feel uncomfortable, so I would appreciate it if you could try to avoid confronting me with it and then we're cool". Some homosexuals probably wouldn't accept that because they don't want to keep hiding who they are, some others would probably appreciate your honesty and see it as a reasonable compromise.

Quoted from DaveRam

[quote=56]
I love them a lot Joost . I had three but Andy who was my best friend was batterd to death in January of 2000
A kinder more centle person you could'nt wish to meet .
To this day i can't believe people can be so cruel .

Sorry about your friend... (and sorry for my really lame joke)

You often hear parents say that they hope their children don't turn out to be homosexual. And that's not always because they're homophobic or because they want grandchildren or anything. Often it's purely because they know that homosexuals run the risk of becoming the victim of hate crimes, intolerance and discrimination. So sometimes you can't even really blame parents for not wanting to accept that a child turns out to be homosexual. Isn't that messed up?

I got the joke Joost (wink1)

I understand tkitna. Do you think it is alright for children to observe it all? Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it. And if it happens at an early age, at 10-14, children succumb, because at this age habits are formed and preferences are shaped. They do not quite see what is happening. I know a guy who said, if you once had it, it is hard to give it up, you are sure to return to it again. It`s like drugs. Jodie Foster watched her mother being in love with a woman who helped her raise the kids, and later was seduced by that woman, and became lesbian herself, which she publicly admitted not long ago ( though we certainly knew it ) If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man? Just imagine. Tkitna has children and you, young people , i suppose, i am sure, don`t. So you can`t understand him. This is a very hard topic, when it concerns our children. What do mothers, fathers and grandparents think on the subject?

Quoted from Jane

If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Huh?

I wouldn`t. I have a niece.

But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?

Quoted from Jane

Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it.

I don't believe that at all. What's your source?

Quoted from Jane

If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Hmmm, let's see... "Dad, I think I'm a lesbian. What should I do? Find a girlfriend that I can be happy with for the rest of my life? Or find a boyfriend because that's what society wants me to do? And then just hope that, even though I'm not the least bit attracted to men, I can tolerate him enough to keep up the scam?"

I can assure you that I would absolutely forbid her to pick option two.

Being a father of three, it would be absolutely fine with me if one, two or all should turn out to be gay or lesbian. As long as they're happy being the way they are, that is as much as I can wish for. As a matter of fact, two of my best friends are a lesbian couple and my boys ask them about it. They know: two people can fall in love. Mostly it's man and woman, but sometimes it's two men or two women. In our house there is nothing wrong with that. Still, I respect Todd's vision tho I'm not sharing it.

Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?

I'm really sorry if anyone had their feelings hurt by this topic. That was not my intention when I started this thread. Although I must say, it's been an interesting discussion so far.

Tkitna, I was raised Christian, too, and I consider myself a Christian. I don'f believe that homosexuality is unnatural, though. In fact you can see it in nature. There are gay animals, too.
I heard a theory that the reason that quote about homosexuality being an abomination is in the bible is because in those times, warriors would rape their opponents after defeating them in battle. The bible has been translated and re-translated so many times, how do we know what's true and what's an error? What happened and what's a parable? Just remember that the bible was also used to support slavery and opression of women. And what about premaritial sex? According to the bible, that's a sin, too. Would you throw a straight person out of your house if you knew they had premaritial sex?

What would you say if I told you that I was gay, or bisexual? Would that make me a bad person? Would it make my contributions to the forum any less? Personally I'd rather have my children around a nice gay person than an awful person who was straight.

I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't agree. I used to think that God didn't want people of the same sex to be married but now I realize he doesn't care as long as they are treating each other right.

Quoted from Bobber

But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.

Ok. WE should respect everybody`s choice. And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line? Who will tell us? Why should you say, that is unnatural, they are turned on like this. Who is to judge them? Your premise is that everything is natural. So...? If a person is gay, i think we must take him/her as they are, respect them, and all that goes with it. But maybe children should be spared this imposition on them from everywhere, from the mass media especially. There are some people born gays, but usually they are spotted immediatelly due to their hermophrodic appearance, the rest are teased into it, or fall into it when very young.
See you all on Sunday! I am leaving for a few days, and, by the way, gonna speak to my wise gay friend, who says it`s like drugs. I like him a lot!

Quoted from Joost

Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?

One great benefit with this dilemma Joost is if i woke up , and i was a women i would always be right in any argument with a man

(rolling3)

Well, lets also take a look at the word 'unnatural'. What does it mean? In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?

Also, not to get off topic, but this is going towards earlier posts (I think it was Joost who asked me if it was a bad thing to not be religious,,,if i'm wrong sorry), but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

Quoted from tkitna

Sandra, you brought up very valid points. As for my religious beliefs, I for some reason, have always taken the Old Testament as the actual meanings of God. I was taught that God, although an image of peace and love, was also stern to people who did not obey his will. The New Testament to me was always the teachings of Jesus who in turn took Gods lessons and (in another words) lightened them up. Meaning that people werent good enough to really follow the strict order that God commanded. As if they would fail regardless so Jesus added some loopholes in the rules. Even being Gods son, Jesus was allowed to be punished also, but alas, for our sins. I'm almost guaranteed to be wrong, but i've always felt deep down that it was better to follow Gods rules than the messengers even if it was Jesus, but thats my own personal ideal.

Thanks for the response Todd. I appreciate it. I guess I was taught the opposite. That the New Testament is the book Christians are to follow. But I haven't been to church or religious classes for quite some time now! I don't even know what I believe in anymore. Sort of agnostic at this point. But that Catholic upbringing is HARD to shake. I'm telling you. They do a number on kids for sure. ??)

Quoted from Jane

And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line?

Where to draw the line? That's easy: there has to be a mutual agreement to have sex. So homosexuality = OK... necrophilia, bestiality, pedophilia = not OK.

Quoted from tkitna

In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?

That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority. ;)

Quoted from tkitna

but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States

Quoted from Jane

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.

To answer your question: it would be fine with me if she turned out to be lesbian, as long as she's a happy person.

Quoted from Joost

That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority. ;)

Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States

Yet,some of our greatest leaders were people who were greatly driven by their religious convictions. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Abraham Lincoln spring to mind. You see the dilemma here?

You can't say it's one way or the other. People who blame religion for the word's problems are just as wrong as people who blame lack of religion. Both seem to carry smug attitudes and lists of one sided wrong doings. No wonder the world is in such a state. People refuse to look farther than their own nose.

When people don't agree with something all they see is what's wrong with it. They waste so much time looking for the negative that they miss the big picture. In the meantime, nothing gets accomplished. That's why I can't stand watching biased political programs, comedians, or read biased news articles and websites. You're not getting the truth either way. But people LOVE this stuff because it validates their own feelings. Then they gather up all of these clever quips and shocking statistics to throw out at anyone who thinks otherwise but the other side has their own comments and statistics to counter and it means nothing! It's unproductive. It gets us nowhere. The media loves it though. It's keeping them rich and happy. It's an amazing thing. They've mastered the art of manipulation to the point of where it's scary how much power they have over what people think.

Quoted from tkitna

Also, not to get off topic, but this is going towards earlier posts (I think it was Joost who asked me if it was a bad thing to not be religious,,,if i'm wrong sorry), but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

Indeed that's easy: There is a strong reason for being 'good' even if you're not religious. If any society would accept murder or theft it would be dangerous for every single one. So it's kind of evolutionary interest to have some basic rules like that. You can base ethic behaviour almost 'logical'. You simply can't do to others want you don't want them to do to you.

Quoted from Sandra

Yet,some of our greatest leaders were people who were greatly driven by their religious convictions. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Abraham Lincoln spring to mind.

Oh, but I wasn't trying to say that non-religious people are better than religious people... Indeed, some of the greatest people that ever lived were religious... The people you mentioned, Mother Teresa, Desmond Tutu, Major Bosshardt... My point is that there are rotten apples in both camps... I think that if you would compare crime rates for atheists with crime rates for people who consider themselves to be Christians... I bet there won't be that much of a difference.

For sure. It comes more down to human nature than anything else. I would think.

The controversial "Kinsey Reports" from the late 1940's early 1950's shocked the world when it reported that 46% of the American male population had "Reacted to both sexes sexually in the course of their adult lives "
Doe's this mean almost half the male population is "Bisexual" ?

Quoted from DaveRam

The controversial "Kinsey Reports" from the late 1940's early 1950's shocked the world when it reported that 46% of the American male population had "Reacted to both sexes sexually in the course of their adult lives "
Doe's this mean almost half the male population is "Bisexual" ?

Of course 'reacting' (whatever than may mean) to both sexes doesn't mean that you're actually interested in having sexual intercourse with both sexes.

True Joost the reports did'nt say 46% of males questioned had sexual intercourse with another man , it illustrated different sexual contact from mild to full intercourse .
I remember looking at this report when i was doing my social work training , we were having a similar debate when the lecturer through "The Kinsey Report " into the mix , i thought i would do the same .
The findings and the reports have been very controversial since they were published .
It still poses the question what is the " Norm " in terms of human sexuality ?

Quoted from DaveRam

It still poses the question what is natural in terms of human sexuality ?

Every material thing is made from natural resources and everything we do is in our human nature... So the word 'natural' really doesn't make much sense because actually everything is natural... Some things more indirectly than others, but still...

Quoted from Joost

Every material thing is made from natural resources and everything we do is in our human nature... So the word 'natural' really doesn't make much sense because actually everything is natural... Some things more indirectly than others, but still...

Maybe natural is not the right word Joost it implies nature , "Norm" is better .

Quoted from DaveRam

Maybe natural is not the right word Joost it implies nature , "Norm" is better .

People who always want to fit the norm are usually incredibly dull and uninteresting... So in that case, hooray for unnatural people! :)

My guesstimate is that  10% of the population is gay and a further 13%  have had more than one bisexual experience and a further 2% have done it once .
I think the headline figure of 46% in "The Kinsey Report" is way to high .
I  think around 25% of the population , are leading pretty interesting lives , behind closed doors.
And what is thought to be a small minority behaving outside the norm is infact a sizeable chunk of the adult population .
And  more to the point if it is going on , it's nobodies business what consenting adults get up to . (beer)

Quoted from Sandra

Thanks for the response Todd. I appreciate it. I guess I was taught the opposite. That the New Testament is the book Christians are to follow. But I haven't been to church or religious classes for quite some time now! I don't even know what I believe in anymore. Sort of agnostic at this point. But that Catholic upbringing is HARD to shake. I'm telling you. They do a number on kids for sure. ??)

I'm in the same boat as you Sandra. I havent dwelved deep into religious classes or studies for a long time either. The reason being is that my wife and I's preacher, that we really liked, left our church for another one. I was brought up Christian, but the church we belong to now is Baptist. Anyways, we would attend an adult bible study class on Wednesday nights and would really get into it. There was definately some heated debates. I just couldnt accept that a person could murder another person and be automatically forgiven when they asked for forgiveness by Jesus. I'm wrong, but it just doesnt sit with me and the preacher and I would debate that for awhile. I miss those evening classes, but I cant get into the new preacher. We'll probably look for another church soon.

Quoted from DaveRam

And more to the point if it is going on , it's nobodies business what consenting adults get up to . (beer)

Agree completely.

... and I'm always open to suggestions myself. (teeth1)

(angel2)

Quoted from Joost

People who always want to fit the norm are usually incredibly dull and uninteresting... So in that case, hooray for unnatural people! :)

Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.

Listen to us Joost, i'd almost swear that your a liberal while i'm a conservative.

(Just joshing man. Please no politics. I'd have to bail.)

Quoted from tkitna

Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.

I think there's nothing wrong with being a little 'strange' or 'weird', to a certain extend. Wouldn't life be boring if everybody was perfectly normal?

Quoted from tkitna

Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.

Not where I live. Those living inside the box are the weird ones! ;)

I'm in two minds about this. I accept that laws don't exist just to punish but to set a moral code (drugs and prostitution.)
Re gay marriage - part of me thinks "let them do what they want." But I can also see a big difference in tolerating gayness (as we do now) and putting it on an equal basis with "normal" marriage. I know in my heart of hearts that our society is built around the family, and we should do all we can to encourage that.
At the end of the day I don't think our western you-can-do-anything attitude has made us one jot happier or freeer (sp).
So I would agree to civil partnerships, but not marriage

I think the traditional family is a fantastic model for bringing up children , im very pro family .
We should do everything we can to support mums and dads bringing up children , every study i've read shows it's the best model by far .
Thats not to say single parents don't do a good job most do , ive also had experience of lesbian foster parents who have worked wonders with very difficult young people .
I think civil partnerships are a good thing and should be extended to include hetrosexual couples who choose not to marry .
Civil Partnerships came about in the Uk basically to give longterm gay cohabiting couples some legal safeguards around property as many of them were been penalized by " Inheritance Tax "
I see civil partnerships as a sensible alternative to marriage for couples with a different lifestyle . It is not and was never intended to be on a par with a christian marriage .
This distinction is why when the legislation was put before the UK Parliament it was passed with very little oppersition it also had significant support from the public in the UK .
I think it's a good law which gives gay and lesbian couples some important legal protection .

Quoted from Kevin

But I can also see a big difference in tolerating gayness (as we do now) and putting it on an equal basis with "normal" marriage.

Why? What does allowing homosexuals to marry change about the value of a heterosexual marriage? "Honey, being married to you just doesn't feel the same ever since these gays got the right to get married..."

Quoted from Kevin

I know in my heart of hearts that our society is built around the family, and we should do all we can to encourage that.

And how are we encouraging that by not legalizing gay marriage?

And another thing... If you feel that marriage is meant as the base you built a family on, then shouldn't you also forbid people who don't want or can't have children to get married?

Here in the Netherlands gay marriage has been legal since 2001. And I honestly don't see how this development affected 'normal' family life in any way.

Quoted from Joost

Here in the Netherlands gay marriage has been legal since 2001. And I honestly don't see how this development affected 'normal' family life in any way.

ah - but it's like waves lapping against a mighty cliff - apparently harmless but crumbling bit by bit until one day it just falls into the ocean.
Actually I haven't really given a lot of thought to the issue. You raise some good points.

Quoted from Kevin

ah - but it's like waves lapping against a mighty cliff - apparently harmless but crumbling bit by bit until one day it just falls into the ocean.

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that), but of course societies and institutions evolve over time anyway, and since I don't see how allowing gay marriages diminishes or erodes heterosexual marriage as an institution, on balance I come down in favor of it. :)

Quoted from Geoff

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that),

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.

Quoted from Kevin

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.

(rolling3)

Not sure I see the objection to wanton debauchery, though. Good luck with the mob. ;D

To get back to the family values thing... In the Netherlands we've gone as far as giving married same-sex couples the same adoption rights as heterosexual couples. So homosexuals can adopt children just as easily as heterosexuals. And of course lesbians can always have children without adopting. So there are families being built on same-sex marriages...

Personally speaking, I think it would be much healthier for a child to grow up in a homosexual two-parent family than a single-parent heterosexual family.

You know, there are SO many kids out there in need of a home. This should just be looked upon as another way to match these children up with loving parents. Heterosexual couples rarely adopt. They want their own. I think it's a positive in this way. And I think more people should consider adoption over all these bizarre medical "breakthroughs."

Yeah, that's so true. In-vitro fertilization and all that is WAY more expensive than adopting anyway.

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.

Quoted from Sandra

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.

I'm wid dat.

Quoted from An Apple Beatle

I'm wid dat.

For some reason, I'd love to hear what that sentence sounds like coming from an English guy! Just like I'd love to hear what it sounds like for an American guy to say, oh dear! ;D

I have been playing some funk tonight and it went well....Sorry, couldn't contain myself. Speaking my thoughts. xxx

It was agreement not mocking. :)

Heh. However, just to clarify, what I meant was, it would probably sound adorable in either case seeing as how it's not the "norm." ;)

Quoted from Sandra

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of m

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