I just put some things together (sorry for administrating here...) about the song Sun King. Raxo explained some things into the bootlegforums, but as this is not visited by everyone (and certainly not guests), I thought I'd put it here, especially after lennon-legend brought the case up again in another thread.
Quote from: lennon-legend
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon - (Sun King lyric)
Quote from: raxo
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon ... (to my ears )
Quote from: lennon-legend
its very possible
Sun King
Author: John Lennon; Lead vocal: John Lennon
[Italian lyrics broken down phoenetically]
Here comes the sun king
Here comes the sun king
Everybody's laughing
Everybody's happy
Here comes the sun king
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol
Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel
i just took this from the forums beatles site, but like it says the lyrics are broken down phoenetically
Quote from: raxo
I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King (Abbey Road, 1969)
I've used some of the explanations given in the following site from Spain and some sites with lyrics (DM's site included):
http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/
John said that Sun King had come to him in a dream. The lyrics, a mixture of Sunnish, Italian and Portu-guess mean nothing at all. However, it is true that at least it's one of the two songs The Beatles ever sung with lines in Sunnish (Besame Mucho and Sun King) although we could add to this list Los Paranoias (which was not a working title of Sun King as some authors quote and we could all see in Anthology 3). I'm almost sure though, that Paul had much to do in the Sunnish part of the lyrics, since some of the phrases come from almost complete ones, and Paul was the one knowing a little Sunnish (as he has often showed). Here is the translation of most of the terms in the song:
(S): sunnish (I): Italian (P): Portu-guess (W): worldish
Cuando (S): When. Impossible to say if it's italian or sunnish 'cos it's the same word in both languages.
Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)
Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often")
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.
Corazon (S): Heart. That even makes some sense
What is Sunnish?
What is Portu-guess?
What is Worldish?
Sunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English
Quote from: zippWhat is Sunnish?
What is Portu-guess?
What is Worldish?
What Is Life?
Quote from: BobberSunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English
... and Por - Tu - Guess is also a pun with sunnish and worldish, 'cos "Por Tu" means "For your" in sunnish and "Guess" in worldish means ... well, you already know that ... so: ForYourGuess!
Quote from: BobberSunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English
What's raxish?
Don't answer that.
And for what it's worth:
Sun King
In 1971 John said that "Sun King" came to him in a dream, but in 1980 he said it was "garbage". This song by Lennon reminds me of a combination of I Am the Walrus and Because. It contains basically nonsense, combined with wonderful harmonies, making it a really beautiful song. The closing lines are nothing more than Italian, Spanish and Portugese words which are more common to tourists. John Lennon, in 1969 said, "We just started joking, you know, singing `quando para mucho.' So we just made up... Paul knew a few Spanish words from school, you know. So we just strung any Spanish words that sounded vaguely like something. And of course we got `chicka ferdy' in, a Liverpool expression. "Chicka ferdy" could also be a combination Spanish/Liverpudlian pun "chica verde" [green girl] or just like `na-na, na-na-na'-- "as one child would say to taunt another." `Cake and eat it' is another nice line too, because they have that in Spanish-- 'Que' or something, and eat it." In this song, The Beatles freely mixed dialects and languages here, (Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese) and when this is combined with less than perfect enunciation and accent, many uncertainties arise, leading to many possible interpretations. The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel" "Parasol" is an umbrella, of course, but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king. "Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain. "Obrigado" is Portuguese [thank you], or "obbligato" [musical term - secondary, yet necessary part] A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!
Some mistakes there ... I'm not going to explain all of them, but to point them ...
Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know. He can speak a little sunnish NOW, so imagine when he was younger!
If they freely mixed dialects and languages without any sense don't you think that there are too many puns there and possible interpretations for a casual writing?.
You say that:
The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel"
"Parasol" is a sunshade -umbrella is "paraguas" in sunnish-, (but "parasole" is an italian word).
Then: ...but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king.
All this interpretation is wrong cos he didn't sing parasole but parasol (the last "e" in parasole sounds as the last "e" in "volare") and "for the sun" is "para EL sol" in sunnish. It makes sense if you use the adjective "verde/green" referencing to the sunshade (parasol and not "para (el) sol", "pa re sol" or wathever) instead of to girl/chica. And he's not singing "pa re sol" by no means ... anyway, "pa re sol" are THREE different words so "re" shold be pronunced begining with a strong -R- and if they were trying to play with the ords as such a level:
pa' - colloquial "para": for, to, third person of verb stop, ...(sunninsh)
re - king in italian
sol - sun in sunnish
why didn't they use sunnish all the way: pa' rey sol? almost the same to italian here. (*)
Then you say:
"Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain.
My answer here is: why they put the pronoun "it" and the noum too?.
And finally: A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!
All those translations and/or words are wrong, sorry :-/ ... and it'll take a lot of time explaning why and which should be the right ones and their meanings (I began this work a few days ago -more things came to my mind but I thought that the info asked was given at that time to that person- ...
(*)Anyway, it's very clear that someone of that site(s) -there are more than one- got a non-very-good transcription from another person and then tried to see what all that could mean by researching in dictionaries (Bobber should be laughing right now thinking about on-line ones :P ) ... I must say that that's not the best way ... at least if you're confusing people (I'm not talking about you, zipp, but 'bout that person who started it all on his site).
... but interesting reading, zipp.
Quote from: raxo
1.Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know.
2.The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel"
3."Parasol" is a sunshade
4. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it",
5."carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain.
1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.
Quote from: zipp
1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.
Have you read what YOU posted? ??)
Anyway, answering:
1. John didn't write all that passage by his own, I tell you.
2. You must know ... I can post the link(s) you used if you want it
3. But not "an umbrella" ... there's a difference ... maybe not a big one but ...
4. I don't get the joke ... here
5. You posted it, ... you should have know. If he's singing that, OK, but if they "
strung any sunnish words that sounded vaguely like something" as John said ... ??) carousel in sunnish is "
carrusel" but what I hear there is "
cara al sol" (sunnish), but I admit that I'm not very sure about the end of this line.
Quote from: zipp
1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.
Quote from: zipp
What's raxish?
Don't answer that.
And for what it's worth:
Sun King
In 1971 John said that "Sun King" came to him in a dream, but in 1980 he said it was "garbage". This song by Lennon reminds me of a combination of I Am the Walrus and Because. It contains basically nonsense, combined with wonderful harmonies, making it a really beautiful song. The closing lines are nothing more than Italian, Spanish and Portugese words which are more common to tourists. John Lennon, in 1969 said, "We just started joking, you know, singing `quando para mucho.' So we just made up... Paul knew a few Spanish words from school, you know. So we just strung any Spanish words that sounded vaguely like something. And of course we got `chicka ferdy' in, a Liverpool expression. "Chicka ferdy" could also be a combination Spanish/Liverpudlian pun "chica verde" [green girl] or just like `na-na, na-na-na'-- "as one child would say to taunt another." `Cake and eat it' is another nice line too, because they have that in Spanish-- 'Que' or something, and eat it." In this song, The Beatles freely mixed dialects and languages here, (Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese) and when this is combined with less than perfect enunciation and accent, many uncertainties arise, leading to many possible interpretations. The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel" "Parasol" is an umbrella, of course, but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king. "Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain. "Obrigado" is Portuguese [thank you], or "obbligato" [musical term - secondary, yet necessary part] A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!
If you'd not the chance ... you can read what you posted NOW ... can't you?!
4. I didn't get the joke there
---
Half or even more is wrong, but I don't want to be the
new Maria so I won't insist ... have a nice one! :)
This is the original post ... presented here in a better
image quality ... -Ooops we're not in bootlegforum now ;D - ... dunno why all the red and italiacs and so were lost in Bobber's but I think that in this form is clear-er.
Quote from: raxo
I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King (Abbey Road, 1969)
I've used some of the explanations given in the following site from Spain and some sites with lyrics (DM's site included):
http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/
John said that Sun King had come to him in a dream. The lyrics, a mixture of Sunnish, Italian and Portu-guess mean nothing at all. However, it is true that at least it's one of the two songs The Beatles ever sung with lines in Sunnish (Besame Mucho and Sun King) although we could add to this list Los Paranoias (which was not a working title of Sun King as some authors quote and we could all see in Anthology 3). I'm almost sure though, that Paul had much to do in the Sunnish part of the lyrics, since some of the phrases come from almost complete ones, and Paul was the one knowing a little Sunnish (as he has often showed). Here is the translation of most of the terms in the song:
(S): sunnish (I): Italian (P): Portu-guess (W): worldish
Cuando (S): When. Impossible to say if it's italian or sunnish 'cos it's the same word in both languages.
Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)
Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often")
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.
Corazon (S): Heart. That even makes some sense
Sorry I made you explain a lot more, Raxo. But an interesting discussion between you two again. ;D
Quote from: BobberSorry I made you explain a lot more, Raxo. But an interesting discussion between you two again. ;D
No worries, friend, it's a pleasure ... but when I began to explain that last post I had not noticed the thread I was in -I thought I was still in GreenApple's "Guy Game"-... and I didn't know that you've already
re-posted the one from bootlegforum ... so I was trying to
sun up, somehow, the first one instead of quoted it ... then I realized and feel bad 'cos if I would have known it form the very beginning I would not post any reply to zipp (for nothing special, I enjoy him, of course :) ) ... I wouldn't because reading the whole thread now my posts look like Maria's ... and if I was a damn god who knows everything ... well, remember that it's not like that: I mustn't look like a god ... BEING ONE! LOL!
I apologized for that :-/ ... not for the last statement but for the last replys/posts 8)
Quote from: raxo
Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know. He can speak a little sunnish NOW, so imagine when he was younger!
If they freely mixed dialects and languages without any sense don't you think that there are too many puns there and possible interpretations for a casual writing?.
... but interesting reading, zipp.
I posted the extract 'for what it was worth' but mainly for the Lennon quote.
I imagine that when he was younger Paul knew very little Spanish.German from Hamburg and a bit of French but not much else.
And I don't see that many puns in there.
Spanish/Italian/Portuguese sounding words with Liverpool 'chicka ferdy' and '(You can't have your) cake and eat it' thrown in for a laugh.
Plus paparazzi, parasol and carousel which are now standard English imported from abroad.
Quote from: raxo
reading the whole thread now my posts look like Maria's ... and if I was a damn god who knows everything ... well, remember that it's not like that: I mustn't look like a god ...
Don't worry, Rax.If you were Maria I'd already have run a mile.
Quote from: zipp
Don't worry, Rax.If you were Maria I'd already have run a mile.
If I were her ... I would be hating myself in her best style! LOL!
Quote from: zipp
....
I imagine that when he was younger Paul knew very little Spanish....
And I don't see that many puns in there.
Spanish/Italian/Portuguese sounding words with Liverpool 'chicka ferdy' and '(You can't have your) cake and eat it' thrown in for a laugh.
Plus paparazzi, parasol and carousel which are now standard English imported from abroad.
I wouldn't say "very little". Oh no!
Acording to the words and their
real meanings there are a lot of puns ... better: lots of people want to see lots of puns (I tried myself answering a petition on bootlegforum) ...
I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, OK for me. :)
A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
What proof have you got to the contrary?
Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
I really do doubt it.
Quote from: zipp1. A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
2. You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
3. What proof have you got to the contrary?
4. Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
5. Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
6. I really do doubt it.
1. Yes, and ...?
2. I said I was going to try to explain what he's singing and you seem to know what they were aware of pretty well, don't you?
3. And you to the contrary? Again, I'm just talking about something WE ALL can have got our own opinion because it's only noise, sound, music and/or words ...
4. He studied it at school.
5. Who is saying it was John who wrote all the lyrics? I'm not. By the way, what "tanta mucho" means and in which language?
6. John? ... and PAUL??? uh???
1.You said there were lots of puns in the song.I would say there aren't any.There's no intentional wordplay as in Because with, for example, 'The world is round, it turns me on'.
2.Good luck.Trying to explain inspired nonsense is going to be hard.
3.The contrary of the contrary?Er...
4.When?Where?How long for?I've never noticed much Spanish in his songs.
5.I think it was basically John's song with a few ideas from the others thrown in.
As for tanta mucho, if you can't identify the language then that's the whole point isn't it?They were just messing around with Spanish type words.The sound was more important than the meaning.
Quote from: zipp1.You said there were lots of puns in the song.I would say there aren't any.There's no intentional wordplay as in Because with, for example, 'The world is round, it turns me on'.
2.Good luck.Trying to explain inspired nonsense is going to be hard.
3.The contrary of the contrary?Er...
4.When?Where?How long for?I've never noticed much Spanish in his songs.
5.I think it was basically John's song with a few ideas from the others thrown in.
As for tanta mucho, if you can't identify the language then that's the whole point isn't it?They were just messing around with Spanish type words.The sound was more important than the meaning.
You're completely wrong with all that
1. About the puns: take a look at your own reply (number 5) ... and you'll see some of the ones that you've posted: "pa re sol" is the
weirdest one.
Then READ carefully what I posted: "
Acording to the words and their real meanings there are a lot of puns ... better: lots of people want to see lots of puns ..." ... You must admit thay they were playing with the words (WORDPLAY) and it was an INTENTIONAL playing ... and about how many puns ::) -even you began with one: "can eat it, carousel", didn't you?- ...
2. I've already done ... not hard but very funny and always a pleasure if it's a request as it was in this case ... and I can tell you that it's not a complete nonsense but there are some excerpts of phrases ...
I'm pretty sure that Paul wrote most of the lyrics of the last part ... and that John could have not been awared of the whole meaning(s) at all: he said it was nonsense but it's not so much.
3. Yep, ... if you can't explain yourself better about your own words: "What proof have you got to
the contrary?" ??)
4. Nothing more to say about this ... He said it all lots of times ... and even spoke a little in interviews ... His pronunciation and vocabulary too is better than David Beckham's (and he's living in Spain), by the way.
5. It was YOU the one who asked:
Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho? ... But he doesn't sing TANTA MUCHO, man, -tho that's what you can read everywhere- but TARDA MUCHO and it's sunnish ...
But I said it before ... you seem to believe in whatever that's on papers or in internet ... well, ::) ...
I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all.
P.S. And the sound was not more important than the meaning ... at that period! Guymania was part of the past! ... If you understood the words and the variety and richness of meanings ... you'd realized that this song is not an exception at all. :-/
OK.
Let's take it from the top, Rax.
Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afraid I can't follow you on that.
This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)
In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.
Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.
Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.
De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.
Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.
Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.
You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.
(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)
So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.
P.S.
Translation!
When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.
Quote from: zippP.S.
Translation!
When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.
Makes more sense than most of Walrus. :)
Quote from: zippOK.
Let's take it from the top, Rax.
1. Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afaraid I cant follow you on that.
2. This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)
3. In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.
Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.
Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.
De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.
4. Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.
5. Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.
You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.
6. (Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)
7. So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.
I'm begining to think that you had not read all this carefully and paying enough atention ...-------------------------------
1. When you say:
Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afaraid I cant follow you on that.Have you read this?:
"
I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King" ...
...
"(to my ears )" ...
...
"On the first line what I hear" ... and
...
"... I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all." ------------
2. When you say:
This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)Have you read this?:
"(to my ears )" ... and
...
"On the first line what I hear"I've never said that he's singing
tantomucho ... read this:
This is what I hear:
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica verdi parasol
Cuesto obrigado tarda mucho que can eat it cara al solAnd if you know how
tarda mucho (they're TWO words) sounds in sunnish? ... I think you don't but it's only my thought.
Remember that almost all the words are in sunnish ...
-------------------------
3. When you say:
In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.
Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.
Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.
De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.Have you read this?:
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase. ... and
...
"Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon" They're
mixing sunnish and italian ("mi" and "de" ARE ITALIAN AND SUNNISH WORDS -if your kowledgement about italian is not good it's not my problem- italian words with diferent use than in sunnish and obviously here they are the sunnish ones but they seem to be replacing the correct italian ones to make the whole phrase ... 'cos the sunnish phrase is quite near to the one you can hear, remember:
...
"Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon (in the song)
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon" (in sunnish)
noun and adjetive in italian and determiner in sunnish
After all: why that kind of words and not just nouns (very esay to learn, more than the ones used here)? ... they make an structured sentence ... using your words: hard to imagine if they/he were ONLY puting nonsense words together!!!
But you're right with the spelling of Questo ... my mistake came when I was thinking I was writing the word "Cuando" and I was hurrying up with the post, sorry.
-----------------------------------
4. When you said:
Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.Have you read this?:
"Anyway, here I hear "tarda"(verbo "tardar": "be late") very clearly instead of "tanto" or "tanta" ("tanta" is a no-meaning word as far as I know, ... well, at least it exists in sunnish as the female form of "tanto", meaning "so much")." I refered it all to sunnish because it's obviously the main language they/he used for the lines ... so I omitted the reference to Italian "tanta" as it was just explained in the sunnish explanation.
---------------------------
5. When you said:
Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.
You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.
(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)Have you read this?:
Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)
Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often") What I'm saying is that it's not ONE word: "paramucho" (doesn't exist) but TWO words: "para mucho" that are VERY VERY VERY common in sunnish ... the same with "tantamucho": TWO sunnish words -the
main language used here, don't forget that- ... but HE DOESN'T SING TANTA ... just my experienced ear, but if it's not enough for you
PLEASE DON'T PAY ME ANY ATTENTION, I'M COMPLETELY WRONG!!!So if you insist in what YOU hear:
Quando
paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado
tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
[size=8]IT'S O K E Y FOR ME, I'M NOT ANGRY AT ALL[/size]
------------------------
6. When you say:
(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)Do you know what "que" means and the sense to the sentence here? If he's singing "que can" it's impossible that you thought in "cake and" 'cos the "que can" souns as "ke kan" and the "cake and" ... I hope you know how the second sounds ... is too much to hope? My advice is not to believe in transcriptions and translations made by ... who knows? ... making who knows which mistakes and caused by what.
------------------------
7. Finally, when you say:
So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.Have you read?:
Here Comes The Sun King (working title) - Reference to the dictator Franco with this comparasion with the famous French King?Only the "Sun King" title, man, read carefully PLEASE!!! ... and perhaps the reference to "cara al sol" ...
Well, the whole song, beguining with the crickets -
smelling the summer-, then the worldish words and ending with the sunnish words makes me think in a whole reference to Spain, yep, even the references to the Sun.
This is what I posted:
P.S. Maybe I'm going to sound crazy by saying the following but ... could this song be a whole reference to Spain?
Here Comes The Sun King (working title) - Reference to the dictator Franco with this comparasion with the famous French King?
Here comes the sun king
Here comes the sun king
Everybody's laughing
Everybody's happy
Here comes the sun king - simple stereo-typical description of the country in those years?
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica verdi parasol
Cuesto obrigado tarda mucho que can eat it cara al sol - (most of all) sunnish words telling something ?And if you remember what has been said about the infamous French King and the relationship the guys had got with Spain and if you remeber my words:
... if he was singing "cara al sol" that means something like "in the sun" but more like "facing to the sun" and it was the title of the hymn of the right-wig of Spain. Tho this may seem very weird, remember the title of the song and the famous French King who was called so and his anecdotes too: this could be the conection between the title, the sunnish words and this last reference to the "sol" (sun). ----------------------------
I'm too tired of all this, zipp ... I'm giving you the reason because I saw it's impossible to debate most of the things you've posted if I don't want to tell lies (big ones in some cases).
After all, HAVE YOU READ THIS?:
"But I said it before ... you seem to believe in whatever that's on papers or in internet ... well, ... I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all.
P.S. And the sound was not more important than the meaning ... at that period! Guymania was part of the past! ... If you understood the words and the variety and richness of meanings ... you'd realized that this song is not an exception at all. "What can I add? ... only this:
I RESPECT YOU, PLEASE DON'T MISS-UNDERSTAND MY WORDS, BUT I'VE SAID IT ALL, AT LEAST ABOUT MY VERSION, I CAN EXPLAIN WHATEVER I'VE WRITTEN TO ANYONE WITH NO PROBLEM BUT NO DEBATE ABOUT THINGS I'VE NOT POSTED. :) :) :) TO YOU, FROM THE BOTTOM. ;) ;) ;)
--------------------------------------------------
P.S.
When you tranlate this:
Quando
paramucho mi amore
de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado
tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
When
for very much me love
? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this
sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.
I (just me) don't agree ...
Quote from: raxo
1.... "Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon (in the song)
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon" (in sunnish)
noun and adjetive in italian and determiner in sunnish
2.Do you know what "que" means and the sense to the sentence here? If he's singing "que can" it's impossible that you thought in "cake and" 'cos the "que can" souns as "ke kan" and the "cake and" ... I hope you know how the second sounds ... is too much to hope? My advice is not to believe in transcriptions and translations made by ... who knows? ... making who knows which mistakes and caused by what.
3.I'm too tired of all this, zipp ... I'm giving you the reason because I saw it's impossible to debate most of the things you've posted if I don't want to tell lies (big ones in some cases).
4.P.S.
When you tranlate this:
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.
When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.
I (just me) don't agree ...
Just a couple more things, Rax.
1.OK.So it can be a mixture of Italian and Spanish.Interesting idea.
2.I imagine you're not a native English speaker or you'd understand how 'que can' becomes 'cake and' or more precisely 'cake 'n' ' as in the expression 'You can't have your cake 'n' eat it'.
3.I'm sorry you're tired of this.I think you've got some interesting, though slightly strange slants on the song!
4.Can you help me here?You say 'para mucho' and 'tanta mucho' are common in Spanish so can you translate them for me?
And you're right to underline obrigado which I wrongly translated as 'sorry' in my post, it should be 'thanks'.
Obrigado tanta mucho il mio amigo!
Stop teasing me ... OK?
What part of my post (reply 10 and quoted by Bobber at the very beginnig) you don't understand? ... and I'll try to explain again.
P.S. Remember: if you read it carefully you'll save me time
No, no, Rax, I'm not teasing you at all.
I'm trying to understand the song just like you.
Since you know a lot of Spanish I need your help.
In your original post you said para is 'for' and mucho is 'a lot'.So do the two together mean 'for a lot' or something else?
Same for 'tanta mucho' - does that mean 'so much a lot' or something else?
Of course you know I disagree entirely with 'tarda mucho' so there's no point in referring back to your post again.But if you can help me with MY translation I'd appreciate it.
I'd really like to know if you now understand 'cake'n' eat it' or do you need more explanation?
Geez, looks like you guys really got into this. I was reading, but gave up as I dont care for the song enough to gather all the opinions.
Good work though guys.
Quote from: tkitnaGeez, looks like you guys really got into this. I was reading, but gave up as I dont care for the song enough to gather all the opinions.
Good work though guys.
Thanks.
If anybody else wants to participate, then go ahead.Especially if you speak Spanish or Italian.
This is not an exclusive Zipp/Raxo debate.
I don't speak neither but I'm following your debate with joy.
Quote from: BobberI don't speak neither but I'm following your debate with joy.
Hope you're gettin' some fun ... 8) ... but I guess that I'm boring more than one ... ::)
Quote from: raxo
Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often") [/b]
What I'm saying is that it's not ONE word: "paramucho" (doesn't exist) but TWO words: "para mucho" that are VERY VERY VERY common in sunnish ... the same with "tantamucho": TWO sunnish words
Well, Rax doesn't seem to be talking to me at the moment.
But I may have found the answer to one of my questions in one of his posts.
Mucho means very much.
So tanta mucho must mean 'very,very much', right?
And para mucho must mean 'for very much'.
So here's the Zipp corrected translation :
When for very much my love of happy heart
World press-photographers my love yah-boo sunshade
This thankyou very,very much that 'n' eat it roundabout.
As someone said it's not Walrus but it's getting there.
Quote from: zipp
Well, Rax doesn't seem to be talking to me at the moment.
But I may have found the answer to one of my questions in one of his posts.
Mucho means very much.
So tanta mucho must mean 'very,very much', right?
And para mucho must mean 'for very much'.
So here's the Zipp corrected translation :
When for very much my love of happy heart
World press-photographers my love yah-boo sunshade
This thankyou very,very much that 'n' eat it roundabout.
As someone said it's not Walrus but it's getting there.
I talk to everybody, mate! And I always will! Even if they don't do it to me ... nothing will change never, ever ... so I am. :-/
I didn't want to teach nobody (I don't want to look ugly -no more, at least ;D - by pretending what I don't want to, d'you understand me?). After all, all this -the thread and the translation- was not my own idea at the very begining but an answer to a request, as I've said before.
---
Your translation is not correct, sorry ...
There are two ways, as far as I can see this:
1. by translating each word individually and without the context and without searching a posible meaning to each phrase or part of it (excuse me but this seems -to me- the way you want to do it and it's wrong when you are working with these words that have so many different meanings if you don't look at the context).
2. by taking a look at the whole sentences or at least parts of them to give it all a context to the translation (what I tried -so I found out diferent posible translation
S- and thinking about the personalities of the guys and the whole song too: musicaly, lyrically and even its own time)
Even if you want to translate what you hear you have to decide which way you want to follow, because there are diferent translations there:
some meaningless (word by word is never the way, in my opinon)
and some not so much (wanting to make some sense -if there are any, of course,-)Here I'm always talking about what you hear ...
P.S. Have you noticed the proportion of sunnish words there?
Quote from: zipp
Thanks.
If anybody else wants to participate, then go ahead.Especially if you speak Spanish or Italian.
This is not an exclusive Zipp/Raxo debate.
Yes, please!!! ... I don't want to look as if I'm trying to change nobody's mind.
Quote from: raxo
Your translation is not correct, sorry ...
OK,
Rax.You've decided not to answer any more of my questions but just to constantly refer back to your reasoning that whatever sense you find in there is justified .
So be it.
This isn't a debate.
This is the return of Franco's dictatorship.
Raxo's Spanish inquisition.
You're not interested in facts but in opinions.
So far you have offered no proof that Paul did Spanish at school, that your language mix turns out much more than gibbersih, that there's anything wrong with my translation, or even that you understand 'cake and eat it'.
I'll post anything more I come up with here, but not for you, Rax, not for you.
Quote from: zipp
1. OK, Rax.You've decided not to answer any more of my questions but just to constantly refer back to your reasoning that whatever sense you find in there is justified .
So be it.
2. This isn't a debate.
This is the return of Franco's dictatorship.
Raxo's Spanish inquisition.
3. You're not interested in facts but in opinions.
4. So far you have offered no proof that Paul did Spanish at school, that your language mix turns out much more than gibbersih, that there's anything wrong with my translation, or even that you understand 'cake and eat it'.
5. I'll post anything more I come up with here, but not for you, Rax, not for you.
Honestly, -from the warmest heart I've got- I don't know what's wrong with you? ??)
1. I've offered you the choice to tell me if you want to go with option 1. (word by word) or 2. (in context) to be able to lend you a hand with those languages/terms you wanted.
2. I said it very clear that what I hear it's what I hear (doesn't matter now if my ear is an experienced one or not) ... and I'm not trying to teach nobody or be a Cicerone.
Those comments are not very kind from you ... specially from one that seems to love facts and proofs. I wonder if you can you read?
I want to believe that everyone can see that all that has not any base.
I'm not a resentful person and I know a lot about human behaviour so don't worry if you feel bad now ... take your time ... I will be here waiting for you to help you in whatever you wanted ... and to not say anything without your request first ... Here without calling at bad moments to lend a hand and here to share happy moments only if I was called. That's what "friend" word means to me ... and if you ever thought -by a second- that I wanted someone -you, for example- to feel miserable or sad or whatever ... maybe you don't know me well enough ... yet.
3. I'm interested in facts (there are lots of threads where -I think- I've desmostrated it by posting some links and quotes, don't you remember:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-cc/m-1098136827/s-30/ ... but only where and when facts and proofs exist ... this could be a matter of opinion -at least for people who has not got a romanic ear, ... for those who has got it it all could be an objective matter-).
The only proof here is the song itself (as it was in the other debate about Not A Second Time -the title says it all :D -) ... so how can you say that I'm not interested in facts but in opinions if the two debates are about sounds in songs, music itsef, ... each song is -sadly- THE ONLY proof ... we've got nothing else!!! (maybe Macca's memory).
4. At this point I won't say nothing new (Macca said it lots of times -this should have warned me about not to discuss with you this topic- ... and the same my posts about the rest of those
things) but I'm adding that I understand 'cake and eat it' pretty well ... the matter was that 'que can' and 'cake and' or its colloquial form are not compatible in sound terms -sounds are guiding us here, after all-
there's not sound space for 'cake' in 'que' -easy to demostrate- and we're talking about sounds on tape not about how words must sound in this or that way, well, if you're talking about proofs, of course, ::) ... but I didn't want to insist precisely because what I've said at the begining of point 2.
5. Whatever makes you happy is going to make me happy too. Sincerely (not second thoughts here, please), even if it's not to talk to me ... warm happiness is what I wish for everybody, everywhere. I tell you.
P.S.
To my ears there's only one Portu-guess word, three worldish ones, six italian ones and fourteen sunnish ones. It seems
to me that he's trying to sing sunnish most of the time (he said so and that was assisted by his fellow).
P.S.S. The only thing I wish now -reading this- is that anyone who read the WHOLE thread now and in the future will do it carefully (ALL THE WORDS) and paying enough attention ... then judge. I'm guilty of my words and facts and because of them I'm ready to
die.
Quote from: raxo
1. I've offered you the choice to tell me if you want to go with option 1. (word by word) or 2. (in context) to be able to lend you a hand with those languages/terms you wanted.
4. At this point I won't say nothing new but that I understand 'cake and eat it' pretty well ... the matter was that 'que can' and 'cake and' or its colloquial form are not compatible in sound terms -sounds are guiding us here after all- but I didn't want to insist precisely because what all I've said at point 2.
1.Word by word.
4.They ARE compatible in sound terms and that's the whole problem.
YOU can't hear that.
That's why I think you're not a native English speaker (another question never answered).
Phonetically there's no problem at all :
keikeni:tit = que can eat it = cake 'n' eat it = cake and eat it
In the same way that :
rokenreul = rockenroll = rock 'n' roll = rock and roll
Lennon was English, not Spanish or Italian.And you can hear that if you're English.
'Cake and eat it' coming up in the middle of all this Hispanoitaloporto neolanguage was a Lennon joke.
As was the inclusion of chickaFerdy (not Verdi as is obvious to anyone English who can distinguish an F from a V).
I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.
Quote from: zipp
1.Word by word.
4.They ARE compatible in sound terms and that's the whole problem.
YOU can't hear that.
That's why I think you're not a native English speaker (another question never answered).
Phonetically there's no problem at all :
keikeni:tit = que can eat it = cake 'n' eat it = cake and eat it
In the same way that :
rokenreul = rockenroll = rock 'n' roll = rock and roll
Lennon was English, not Spanish or Italian.And you can hear that if you're English.
'Cake and eat it' coming up in the middle of all this Hispanoitaloporto neolanguage was a Lennon joke.
As was the inclusion of chickaFerdy (not Verdi as is obvious to anyone English who can distinguish an F from a V).
I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.
I (just me) think that that's not the best way (I've already said it) for a translation if you want to give a chance to a meaningful one (maybe it doesn't exist ... but you've got to realized later not
a priori)
keikeni:tit = que can eat it ... completely wrong :-/
Define-tely you don't know how QUE is pronounced ... and less about how good r bad was John at sunnish pronunciation (where's your proof?) ... and the example is "corazon" ... but the funny thing is that you've said that you hear it (remember the text you said you hear) ... I didn't want an embarassing situation for you (that's why I've avoided this point) but you insist once again ... if you listen to
that then you can't transcript it
in that wayand how to translate it then? ... translate what exactly? ... you have to decide because those sounds and those words don't fit ::) . And can you tell now that you're not teasing me by posting those simple examples of pronunciation to me as a lesson? C'mon!
Your last statement says it all (it seems that I owe you a favour after all, ... so let's say that you've been the patient one here):
I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.If you see that ... if you still see that ... I'VE GOT ENOUGH (wave2)
P.S. The best for you and your family, mate. Tho you mightn't believe (and I may sound as a fool clown now) I don't bear a grudge against you. :)
P.S.S. This easily could be my last post here so you've got all the space for you ... I'm going to my weekly reunion about superiority complex.
One thing: I've been always talking about how it all sounds and not about which certainly
imaginated words should have sounded one day by one mouth, etc ... let's hear the recording: THE PROOF!
---- added after being posted: ----
3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.P.S.S.S. It seems that I've got to explain everything here -maybe John too, about his books, ... oh, my God! maybe John was not english, uh, zipp?- ::):
I've got e-n/ough(t)
(more than one pun there ... and more than one way to write it too: a mess when I've tried to put all my thoughts in just one word: enough,
a nought,
an ought, etc ... but ENOUGH was the one that fits better and has a clear meaning as it has been showed, so the choice was clear ... *sigh* hope that those who are not so
strict could get
them ;) ... and then look who's talking about dictatorship and worse things ::) ...
me at this very moment :D) Peace of mind ... it's quite clear that you need it!
A clue for you from here:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-books/m-1133866563/s-0/Quote from: kevin_bRaxoism - word invented for general use but blithely ignored by all and sundry.
And a
too explicit example here:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-conversations/m-1133403515/s-165/Quote from: pc31who is gonna win the superbowl tomorrow raxo??
Quote from: raxo
I steel see hawks ... that's all I can say ...
Can you see all the diferent meanings ... even the contra
dictatory ones ... (I'm pointing to all these but don't expect to be so clear in my future posts ;D )
When lots of thoughts, words and kinds of structures come to my mind ... well, I'm proud of knowing different languages and I feel rich because of that, so when I'm writing I can't avoid, here and there, that kind of wordplay and puns tho I know very few people can get or understand them (sometimes noone as Kevin said).
From here on-wars, if you see a mistake or a wrong spelling by me think that
maybe I was not wrong about that but I meant it -of course I make mistakes too 'cos I write quite fast but think too many things at once too, I've even recognized one to you about "Quando" and I've said on a post
I mustn't look like a god- (thing that you insist in forgeting on every post you wrote) and that I don't write just for britlanders but for everyone, everywhere ... and
maybe something that's ugly for you might cause a smile to other person with a diferent mother language than you. Try to see it on that way.
----------------------------
3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.This ugly try of ridi
culin what zipp just can't understand or read prompted me to write what I call
mortgaged life: some thoughts explaining some things -that I didn't want to tell because I respect zipp, but he's imposible today, so ... I had to do it to- those people who can read ... tho I might bore tkitna 8) ... :
About all those italian expressions:
il mio amore? ... why not
amore mio, because it means (translating in your horrible style of word by word)
love my ...
mi amore de felice is certainly a mix of italian and sunnish using worldish for the structure ... another example is
mundo paparazzi (if you translate this in your style of word by word) means
world journalists but again using italian and sunnish with a worldish structure because in romanic languages it has no sense as an expression because it needs more words to work and the order of them should change to paparazzi mundo.
The main question here is why they choosed that kind of words (articles, determiners, nouns, adjectives, maybe verbs) in that special and specific order if they didn't want to say something and it all was just nonsense? ... it's much easy to say a list of nouns if you're only searching for sounds and nonsense.
But if the take enough time to make it in that way ... why wouldn't they take time to try to play with meanings? ... It's obvious for me that the structures of, for example,
mi amore de felice corazon and
mundo paparazzi replacing some words by the equal ones in a diferent language were
worked ones and their meanings are clear too to those who can understand both languages ... the same rule must be applied to the rest of the sentences then.
The conclusion for anyone who knows something about both languages (sunnish and worldish) is that they used romanic languges (mostly sunnish) but worldish structure ...then the translation of all that should be acording to the context and not isolating word by word.
2.I know how English people pronounce a Spanish 'que' and how Lennon would, but you don't, do you.Why not?The dictator that you seem to carry deep inside knows perfectly what I know, what I don't know and what is true, uh?
Of course I know how an english (and more nationalities, ... specially belgian 'cos I've worked for them) says 'que' ... and
it seems that better than you -if that's the proof (?) you're using here-, but the mistake it's that what you say you're hearing and what you're writing IS NOT THE SAME -and this is clearly an objective matter- ... and when I said that
I don't get the joke ... here I meant that there's no way to your words and your sounds (ones or others, but decide yourself) ... and I didn't mean that I didn't know how
those words sound. That's something you invented by yourself, ... once again.
After all, "que" are just two sounds: a consonant and a vowel sound, and of course John can say almost perfectly sunnish words as "corazon" and others but he HAS to make the
typical english mistake in "que" because ... who knows why?
He would pronounced in that special way, y'know, ... what a big proof! A suspicion instead of a listening ??)
1.I haven't got phonetic symbols on my computer but that's pretty near.And anyone who uses a dictionary can get my point.
As usual you dismiss it out of hand with no justification.Yes, as usual in me I give no justifications ... you have an obsesion with proofs ... by the way, are you a convict?
You are as near as far to the real sounds ... but search wherever you want, but take a listen to this about the sound of "que": if Paul McCartney tells you once something that doesn't agree with what Mark says on his bibles, would you believe in the witness or in the lawyer? ... tho you maynot know that's exactly the situation here, but do whatever you want (I guess you know
what is the lawyer here and
who Paul). By the way, what can you tell me about this?:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-cc/m-1098136827/s-30/ (reply 33)
I know that you're trying to say that "que" sounds as the "cake" but without the ending "ke"
-that it's already in the begining of "can"-, just the begining "ca" ... But you can go to any dictionary, -doesn't matter which-, the reality it's that they don't fit ... the double vocal sound in "cake" doesn't exist in "que" ... so if you're listening to
that then you've got to change the word "que" in the text you posted ... but then there's no pun at all. ::) OK, now? (you don't know how ridiculous I feel explaining such a simple thing, as if nobody around here couldn't understand it without any help! ... But I'm learning that that's the only way with you, ... because if it's not so, then nobody knows anything: Sun King has spoken!)
About the F and V sounds ... do you -again- really think I can't distinguish them? You were teasing me, -at least I want to believe that- ... but have you ever stop yourself and wonder why some sources are saying V instead of F .. maybe there are more words than worldish out there in which those sounds are not so diferent? ... and may some hear a word of his/her/its own language quite clear because he/she/it is awared that John was singing in some others languages?. So don't rule out a
written V just because you hear a F when there are other posible languages in the game.
The sounds are the sounds ... but in which languages? but which are the words? so which are the meanings? AHA!
So you've said
In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese and
Since you know a lot of Spanish I need your help and then you say that about the
superiority complex ... clear your mind up, please! And if you want to translate word by word take a look at a dictionary, why are you asking for help? ... I know, ... after all, you have to admit that a translation needs
something more ... and that's exactly what I'm trying to explain from the very begining!
Paul studied sunnish, oh yeah, at school and he said it on the Anthology Book (at the very begining again, so you needn't to pay a lot of atention or read too much: really good for you, uh?-) among others sources ... but you needn't to believe me ... and, as I know you need a proof for each statement, I posted a link to a sunnish site on my first post that obviously you've not visited (tho I give you time and advices about
reading it all carefully, not to insist too much about Paul and sunnish, but at the end the embarrasing situation for you has come -I tried to avoid it, I swear-) ... and here's the link again (go to songs and then choose the album and the song) :
http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/ or
http://www.spanishbeatles.com/ they are the same
... and for your info I've listened to Paul speaking sunnish-and even joking about Mick Jagger and the Concert for N.Y.C. in 2001 when he answered to why Mick was not at the end with the rest of them singing Let It Be, he pronunced perfectly bathroom in sunnish that is something similar to "bano" but with the portu-guess sound "nh" instead of "n" that is not an easy word to pronunce- ... tho I admit that his vocaboulary is not very vast, he's good at sunnish in my opinion, and not too bad at some others languages-. ... why don't you begin to talk about proofs once again?
This is the end (altogether now:
AT LAST!!! LOL and LOL again!):
I must get to the end because at the very very very beginning I was just answering a request-ion in the bootlegforum and I think that that person got an answer and now he/she/it can read a whole thread about the topic but another bittersweet experience too, ain't it?
I'm leaving now ... but my words (no few) re-main. 8)
"And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong
I'm (b)right
Where I belong I'm (b)right
Where I belong."
Quote from: raxo
1.keikeni:tit = que can eat it ... completely wrong.
2.Define-tely you don't know how QUE is pronounced ...
3.If you see that ... if you still see that ... I'VE GOT ENOUGH.
1.I haven't got phonetic symbols on my computer but that's pretty near.And anyone who uses a dictionary can get my point.
As usual you dismiss it out of hand with no justification.
2.I know how English people pronounce a Spanish 'que' and how Lennon would, but you don't, do you.Why not?
3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.
Adios, Rax.
So sad. You two had a really good debate here. So sad to see it end like this.
Quote from: raxo
ZIPP :
Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.
De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.[/i]
RAXO :
Have you read this?:
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.
They're mixing sunnish and italian ("mi" and "de" ARE ITALIAN AND SUNNISH WORDS -if your kowledgement about italian is not good it's not my problem- italian words with diferent use than in sunnish and obviously here they are the sunnish ones but they seem to be replacing the correct italian ones to make the whole phrase ... 'cos the sunnish phrase is quite near to the one you can hear
As far as I can make out here, Raxo was saying that MI and DI are both Spanish and Italian.He also insinuated that I knew nothing about Italian.
I've just checked this with someone who has lived in Italy for over twenty years and he has confirmed that Italians say IL MIO AMORE, or MIO AMORE or AMORE MIO but never MI AMORE.
And the same person has confirmed that DE does NOT exist in Italian.
So the Sun King lyrics really are gobbledegook and Rax doesn't know Italian from Icelandish.
Quote from: zipp
So the Sun King lyrics really are gobbledegook and Rax doesn't know Italian from Icelandish.
Careful, there's people from Iceland here. Brynjar, perhaps you can have a go?
Quote from: Bobber
Careful, there's people from Iceland here. Brynjar, perhaps you can have a go?
Thank goodness Paul didn't learn Icelandish at school!
He might have picked it up somewhere. You'll never know.