Sun King

[raxo]

Don't worry, Rax.If you were Maria I'd already have run a mile.

If I were her ... I would be hating myself in her best style! LOL!

[raxo]

....
I imagine that when he was younger Paul knew very little Spanish....

And I don't see that many puns in there.
Spanish/Italian/Portuguese sounding words with Liverpool 'chicka ferdy' and '(You can't have your) cake and eat it' thrown in for a laugh.
Plus paparazzi, parasol and carousel which are now standard English imported from abroad.

I wouldn't say "very little". Oh no!

Acording to the words and their real meanings there are a lot of puns ... better: lots of people want to see lots of puns (I tried myself answering a petition on bootlegforum) ...

I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, OK for me.  

[zipp]

A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
What proof have you got to the contrary?
Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
I really do doubt it.

[raxo]

1. A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
2. You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
3. What proof have you got to the contrary?
4. Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
5. Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
6. I really do doubt it.

1. Yes, and ...?
2. I said I was going to try to explain what he's singing and you seem to know what they were aware of pretty well, don't you?
3. And you to the contrary? Again, I'm just talking about something WE ALL can have got our own opinion because it's only noise, sound, music and/or words ...
4. He studied it at school.
5. Who is saying it was John who wrote all the lyrics? I'm not. By the way, what "tanta mucho" means and in which language?
6. John? ... and PAUL??? uh???

[zipp]

1.You said there were lots of puns in the song.I would say there aren't any.There's no intentional wordplay as in Because with, for example, 'The world is round, it turns me on'.

2.Good luck.Trying to explain inspired nonsense is going to be hard.

3.The contrary of the contrary?Er...

4.When?Where?How long for?I've never noticed much Spanish in his songs.

5.I think it was basically John's song with a few ideas from the others thrown in.
As for tanta mucho, if you can't identify the language then that's the whole point isn't it?They were just messing around with Spanish type words.The sound was more important than the meaning.

[raxo]

1.You said there were lots of puns in the song.I would say there aren't any.There's no intentional wordplay as in Because with, for example, 'The world is round, it turns me on'.

2.Good luck.Trying to explain inspired nonsense is going to be hard.

3.The contrary of the contrary?Er...

4.When?Where?How long for?I've never noticed much Spanish in his songs.

5.I think it was basically John's song with a few ideas from the others thrown in.
As for tanta mucho, if you can't identify the language then that's the whole point isn't it?They were just messing around with Spanish type words.The sound was more important than the meaning.

You're completely wrong with all that

1. About the puns: take a look at your own reply (number 5) ... and you'll see some of the ones that you've posted: "pa re sol" is the weirdest one.
Then READ carefully what I posted:  "Acording to the words and their real meanings there are a lot of puns ... better: lots of people want to see lots of puns ..." ... You must admit thay they were playing with the words (WORDPLAY) and it was an INTENTIONAL playing ... and about how many puns   -even you began with one: "can eat it, carousel", didn't you?- ...

2. I've already done ... not hard but very funny and always a pleasure if it's a request  as it was in this case ... and I can tell you that it's not a complete nonsense but there are some excerpts of phrases ...
I'm pretty sure that Paul wrote most of the lyrics of the last part ... and that John could have not been awared of the whole meaning(s) at all: he said it was nonsense but it's not so much.

3. Yep, ... if you can't explain yourself better about your own words: "What proof have you got to the contrary?"  ??)

4. Nothing more to say about this ... He said it all lots of times ... and even spoke a little in interviews ... His pronunciation and vocabulary too is better than David Beckham's (and he's living in Spain), by the way.

5.  It was YOU the one who asked: Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho? ... But he doesn't sing TANTA MUCHO, man, -tho that's what you can read everywhere- but TARDA MUCHO and it's sunnish ...
But I said it before ... you seem to believe in whatever that's on papers or in internet ... well,   ... I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all.

P.S. And the sound was not more important than the meaning ... at that period! Guymania was part of the past! ... If you understood the words and the variety and richness of meanings ... you'd realized that this song is not an exception at all.  :-/

[zipp]

OK.
Let's take it from the top, Rax.
Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afraid I can't follow you on that.
This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)

In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.

Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.

Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.

De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.

Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.

Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.

You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.

(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)

So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.

[zipp]

P.S.
Translation!

When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.

[Kevin]

P.S.
Translation!

When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.

Makes more sense than most of Walrus.  

[raxo]

OK.
Let's take it from the top, Rax.
1. Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afaraid I cant follow you on that.

2. This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)

3. In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.

Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.

Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.

De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.

4. Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.

5. Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.

You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.

6. (Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)

7. So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.

I'm begining to think that you had not read all this carefully and paying enough atention ...

-------------------------------

1. When you say:
Basically you're saying that what you hear is the truth, but I'm afaraid I cant follow you on that.

Have you read this?:
"I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King" ...
... "(to my ears   )" ...
... "On the first line what I hear" ... and
... "... I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all."

   ------------

2. When you say:
This is what I hear (not what you or anyone else says I should be hearing) :

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

(He certainly doesn't sing tantomucho or tardamucho by the way, but let's leave that on one side for the moment .)

Have you read this?:
"(to my ears   )" ... and
... "On the first line what I hear"

I've never said that he's singing tantomucho ... read this:

This is what I hear:
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica verdi parasol
Cuesto obrigado tarda mucho que can eat it cara al sol

And if you know how tarda   mucho (they're TWO words) sounds in sunnish? ... I think you don't but it's only my thought.
Remember that almost all the words are in sunnish ...

-------------------------

3. When you say:
In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese but your Italian is way out.

Cuesto :If you want 'cuesto' to be Italian you have to write it the way I do with QU.

Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.

De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.

Have you read this?:
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase. ... and
... "Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon"

They're mixing sunnish and italian ("mi" and "de" ARE ITALIAN AND SUNNISH WORDS -if your kowledgement about italian is not good it's not my problem- italian words with diferent use than in sunnish and obviously here they are the sunnish ones but they seem to be replacing the correct italian ones to make the whole phrase ... 'cos the sunnish phrase is quite near to the one you can hear, remember:

... "Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon  (in the song)
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon" (in sunnish)
noun and adjetive in italian and determiner in sunnish

After all: why that kind of words and not just nouns (very esay to learn, more than the ones used here)? ... they make an structured sentence ... using your words: hard to imagine if they/he were ONLY puting nonsense words together!!!

But you're right with the spelling of Questo ... my mistake came when I was thinking I was writing the word "Cuando" and I was hurrying up with the post, sorry.

-----------------------------------

4. When you said:
Tantamucho : tanta IS Italian.It's the feminine of tanto, but mucho isn't Italian.

Have you read this?:
"Anyway, here I hear "tarda"(verbo "tardar": "be late") very clearly instead of "tanto" or "tanta" ("tanta" is a no-meaning word as far as I know, ... well, at least it exists in sunnish as the female form of "tanto", meaning "so much")."

I refered it all to sunnish because it's obviously the main language they/he used for the lines ... so I omitted the reference to Italian "tanta" as it was just explained in the sunnish explanation.

---------------------------

5. When you said:
Words put together in a meaningles way do not make a pun.

You said yourself that paramucho is a pun that makes no sense.Unfortunately you didn't then draw the obvious conclusion that it wasn't a pun but some Spanish sounding words thrown together for a laugh.

(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)

Have you read this?:
Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)

Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often")

What I'm saying is that it's not ONE word: "paramucho" (doesn't exist) but TWO words: "para mucho" that are VERY VERY VERY common in sunnish ... the same with "tantamucho": TWO sunnish words -the main language used here, don't forget that- ... but HE DOESN'T SING TANTA ... just my experienced ear, but if it's not enough for you PLEASE DON'T PAY ME ANY ATTENTION, I'M COMPLETELY WRONG!!!

So if you insist in what YOU hear:

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

[size=8]IT'S O K E Y FOR ME, I'M NOT ANGRY AT ALL[/size]

------------------------

6. When you say:
(Incidentally,the only half pun in the whole song (as you noticed) is the 'que can' which becomes 'cake and' in the context.)

Do you know what "que" means and the sense to the sentence here? If he's singing "que can" it's impossible that you thought in "cake and" 'cos the "que can" souns as "ke kan" and the "cake and" ... I hope you know how the second sounds ... is too much to hope? My advice is not to believe in transcriptions and translations made by ... who knows? ... making who knows which mistakes and caused by what.

------------------------

7. Finally, when you say:
So how you get from translating this whole random mixture into a statement on Spain's dictator General Franco makes my mind boggle.

Have you read?:
Here Comes The Sun King (working title) - Reference to the dictator Franco with this comparasion with the famous French King?

Only the "Sun King" title, man, read carefully PLEASE!!! ... and perhaps the reference to "cara al sol" ...

Well, the whole song, beguining with the crickets -smelling the summer-, then the worldish words and ending with the sunnish words makes me think in a whole reference to Spain, yep, even the references to the Sun.

This is what I posted:

P.S. Maybe I'm going to sound crazy by saying the following but ... could this song be a whole reference to Spain?

Here Comes The Sun King (working title) - Reference to the dictator Franco with this comparasion with the famous French King?

Here comes the sun king
Here comes the sun king
Everybody's laughing
Everybody's happy
Here comes the sun king - simple stereo-typical description of the country in those years?

Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica verdi parasol
Cuesto obrigado tarda mucho que can eat it cara al sol - (most of all) sunnish words telling something ?

And if you remember what has been said about the infamous French King and the relationship the guys had got with Spain and if you remeber my words:

... if he was singing "cara al sol" that means something like "in the sun" but more like "facing to the sun" and it was the title of the hymn of the right-wig of Spain. Tho this may seem very weird, remember the title of the song and the famous French King who was called so and his anecdotes too: this could be the conection between the title, the sunnish words and this last reference to the "sol" (sun).

----------------------------

I'm too tired of all this, zipp ... I'm giving you the reason because I saw it's impossible to debate most of the things you've posted if I don't want to tell lies (big ones in some cases).

After all, HAVE YOU READ THIS?:

"But I said it before ... you seem to believe in whatever that's on papers or in internet ... well,   ... I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, -even if the are wrong- OK for me ...
I'm not trying to teach nobody ... or to open your (or others) mind(s) ... This was a thing I made for the bootlegforum ... because someone asked me to translated what he sang in Sun King ... but if you or another one disagree with it because he/she/it has got a better ear -not because he/she/it read something somewhere someday: that's not a real proof for me- OK, I don't mind ... I know what I hear, that's all.

P.S. And the sound was not more important than the meaning ... at that period! Guymania was part of the past! ... If you understood the words and the variety and richness of meanings ... you'd realized that this song is not an exception at all. "

What can I add? ... only this:

I RESPECT YOU, PLEASE DON'T MISS-UNDERSTAND MY WORDS, BUT I'VE SAID IT ALL, AT LEAST ABOUT MY VERSION, I CAN EXPLAIN WHATEVER I'VE WRITTEN TO ANYONE WITH NO PROBLEM BUT NO DEBATE ABOUT THINGS I'VE NOT POSTED.   TO YOU, FROM THE BOTTOM.      

--------------------------------------------------

P.S.
When you tranlate this:

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.

I (just me) don't agree ...

[zipp]

1.... "Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon  (in the song)
Cuando (se) para mucho mi amor de feliz corazon" (in sunnish)
noun and adjetive in italian and determiner in sunnish

2.Do you know what "que" means and the sense to the sentence here? If he's singing "que can" it's impossible that you thought in "cake and" 'cos the "que can" souns as "ke kan" and the "cake and" ... I hope you know how the second sounds ... is too much to hope? My advice is not to believe in transcriptions and translations made by ... who knows? ... making who knows which mistakes and caused by what.

3.I'm too tired of all this, zipp ... I'm giving you the reason because I saw it's impossible to debate most of the things you've posted if I don't want to tell lies (big ones in some cases).

4.P.S.
When you tranlate this:

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore chickaferdy parasol
Questo obrigado tantamucho que can eat it carousel.

When for very much me love ? happy heart
world press-photographers me love yah-boo sunshade
this sorry so many very much that can eat it roundabout.

I (just me) don't agree ...

Just a couple more things, Rax.

1.OK.So it can be a mixture of Italian and Spanish.Interesting idea.

2.I imagine you're not a native English speaker or you'd understand how 'que can' becomes 'cake and' or more precisely 'cake 'n' ' as in the expression 'You can't have your cake 'n' eat it'.

3.I'm sorry you're tired of this.I think you've got some interesting, though slightly strange slants on the song!

4.Can you help me here?You say 'para mucho' and 'tanta mucho' are common in Spanish so can you translate them for me?
And you're right to underline obrigado which I wrongly translated as 'sorry' in my post, it should be 'thanks'.

Obrigado tanta mucho il mio amigo!

[raxo]

Stop teasing me ... OK?

What part of my post (reply 10 and quoted by Bobber at the very beginnig) you don't understand? ... and I'll try to explain again.

P.S. Remember: if you read it carefully you'll save me time

[zipp]

No, no, Rax, I'm not teasing you at all.
I'm trying to understand the song just like you.
Since you know a lot of Spanish I need your help.
In your original post you said para is 'for' and mucho is 'a lot'.So do the two together mean 'for a lot' or something else?
Same for 'tanta mucho' - does that mean 'so much a lot' or something else?

Of course you know I disagree entirely with 'tarda mucho' so there's no point in referring back to your post again.But if you can help me with MY translation I'd appreciate it.

I'd really like to know if you now understand 'cake'n' eat it' or do you need more explanation?

[tkitna]

Geez, looks like you guys really got into this. I was reading, but gave up as I dont care for the song enough to gather all the opinions.

Good work though guys.

[zipp]

Geez, looks like you guys really got into this. I was reading, but gave up as I dont care for the song enough to gather all the opinions.

Good work though guys.

Thanks.
If anybody else wants to participate, then go ahead.Especially if you speak Spanish or Italian.
This is not an exclusive Zipp/Raxo debate.