Sun King

[Bobber]

I don't speak neither but I'm following your debate with joy.

[raxo]

I don't speak neither but I'm following your debate with joy.

Hope you're gettin' some fun ...    ... but I guess that I'm boring more than one ...  

[zipp]

Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often") [/b]

What I'm saying is that it's not ONE word: "paramucho" (doesn't exist) but TWO words: "para mucho" that are VERY VERY VERY common in sunnish ... the same with "tantamucho": TWO sunnish words

Well, Rax doesn't seem to be talking to me at the moment.
But I may have found the answer to one of my questions in one of his posts.
Mucho means very much.
So tanta mucho must mean 'very,very much', right?
And para mucho must mean 'for very much'.

So here's the Zipp corrected translation :

When for very much my love of happy heart
World press-photographers my love yah-boo sunshade
This thankyou very,very much that 'n' eat it roundabout.

As someone said it's not Walrus but it's getting there.

[raxo]

Well, Rax doesn't seem to be talking to me at the moment.
But I may have found the answer to one of my questions in one of his posts.
Mucho means very much.
So tanta mucho must mean 'very,very much', right?
And para mucho must mean 'for very much'.

So here's the Zipp corrected translation :

When for very much my love of happy heart
World press-photographers my love yah-boo sunshade
This thankyou very,very much that 'n' eat it roundabout.

As someone said it's not Walrus but it's getting there.

I talk to everybody, mate! And I always will! Even if they don't do it to me ... nothing will change never, ever ... so I am.  :-/

I didn't want to teach nobody (I don't want to look ugly -no more, at least   - by pretending what I don't want to, d'you understand me?). After all, all this -the thread and the translation- was not my own idea at the very begining but an answer to a request, as I've said before.

---

Your translation is not correct, sorry ...

There are two ways, as far as I can see this:

1. by translating each word individually and without the context and without searching a posible meaning to each phrase or part of it (excuse me but this seems -to me- the way you want to do it and it's wrong when you are working with these words that have so many different meanings if you don't look at the context).

2. by taking a look at the whole sentences or at least parts of them to give it all a context to the translation (what I tried -so I found out diferent posible translationS- and thinking about the personalities of the guys and the whole song too: musicaly, lyrically and even its own time)

Even if you want to translate what you hear you have to decide which way you want to follow, because there are diferent translations there:
some meaningless (word by word is never the way, in my opinon)
and some not so much (wanting to make some sense -if there are any, of course,-)Here I'm always talking about what you hear ...

P.S. Have you noticed the proportion of sunnish words there?

[raxo]

Thanks.
If anybody else wants to participate, then go ahead.Especially if you speak Spanish or Italian.
This is not an exclusive Zipp/Raxo debate.

Yes, please!!! ... I don't want to look as if I'm trying to change nobody's mind.

[zipp]

Your translation is not correct, sorry ...

OK, Rax.You've decided not to answer any more of my questions but just to constantly refer back to your reasoning that whatever sense you find in there is justified .
So be it.
This isn't a debate.
This is the return of Franco's dictatorship.
Raxo's Spanish inquisition.
You're not interested in facts but in opinions.
So far you have offered no proof that Paul did Spanish at school, that your language mix turns out much more than gibbersih, that there's anything wrong with my translation, or even that you understand 'cake and eat it'.
I'll post anything more I come up with here, but not for you, Rax, not for you.

[raxo]

1. OK, Rax.You've decided not to answer any more of my questions but just to constantly refer back to your reasoning that whatever sense you find in there is justified .
So be it.
2. This isn't a debate.
This is the return of Franco's dictatorship.
Raxo's Spanish inquisition.
3. You're not interested in facts but in opinions.
4. So far you have offered no proof that Paul did Spanish at school, that your language mix turns out much more than gibbersih, that there's anything wrong with my translation, or even that you understand 'cake and eat it'.
5. I'll post anything more I come up with here, but not for you, Rax, not for you.

Honestly, -from the warmest heart I've got- I don't know what's wrong with you?  ??)

1. I've offered you the choice to tell me if you want to go with option 1. (word by word) or 2. (in context) to be able to lend you a hand with those languages/terms you wanted.

2. I said it very clear that what I hear it's what I hear (doesn't matter now if my ear is an experienced one or not) ... and I'm not trying to teach nobody or be a Cicerone.
Those comments are not very kind from you ... specially from one that seems to love facts and proofs. I wonder if you can you read?
I want to believe that everyone can see that all that has not any base.
I'm not a resentful person and I know a lot about human behaviour so don't worry if you feel bad now ... take your time ... I will be here waiting for you to help you in whatever you wanted ... and to not say anything without your request first ... Here without calling at bad moments to lend a hand and here to share happy moments only if I was called. That's what "friend" word means to me ... and if you ever thought -by a second- that I wanted someone -you, for example- to feel miserable or sad or whatever ... maybe you don't know me well enough ... yet.

3. I'm interested in facts (there are lots of threads where -I think- I've desmostrated it by posting some links and quotes, don't you remember:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-cc/m-1098136827/s-30/
... but only where and when facts and proofs exist ... this could be a matter of opinion -at least for people who has not got a romanic ear, ... for those who has got it it all could be an objective matter-).
The only proof here is the song itself (as it was in the other debate about Not A Second Time -the title says it all   -) ... so how can you say that I'm not interested in facts but in opinions if the two debates are about sounds in songs, music itsef, ... each song is -sadly- THE ONLY proof ... we've got nothing else!!! (maybe Macca's memory).

4. At this point I won't say nothing new (Macca said it lots of times -this should have warned me about not to discuss with you this topic- ... and the same my posts about the rest of those things) but I'm adding that I understand 'cake and eat it' pretty well ... the matter was that 'que can' and 'cake and' or its colloquial form are not compatible in sound terms -sounds are guiding us here, after all- there's not sound space for 'cake' in 'que' -easy to demostrate- and we're talking about sounds on tape not about how words must sound in this or that way, well, if you're talking about proofs, of course,   ... but I didn't want to insist precisely because what I've said at the begining of point 2.

5. Whatever makes you happy is going to make me happy too. Sincerely (not second thoughts here, please), even if it's not to talk to me ... warm happiness is what I wish for everybody, everywhere. I tell you.

P.S. To my ears there's only one Portu-guess word, three worldish ones, six italian ones and fourteen sunnish ones. It seems to me that he's trying to sing sunnish most of the time (he said so and that was assisted by his fellow).

P.S.S. The only thing I wish now -reading this- is that anyone who read the WHOLE thread now and in the future will do it carefully (ALL THE WORDS) and paying enough attention ... then judge. I'm guilty of my words and facts and because of them I'm ready to die.

[zipp]

1. I've offered you the choice to tell me if you want to go with option 1. (word by word) or 2. (in context) to be able to lend you a hand with those languages/terms you wanted.
4. At this point I won't say nothing new but that I understand 'cake and eat it' pretty well ... the matter was that 'que can' and 'cake and' or its colloquial form are not compatible in sound terms -sounds are guiding us here after all- but I didn't want to insist precisely because what all I've said at point 2.

1.Word by word.

4.They ARE compatible in sound terms and that's the whole problem.
YOU can't hear that.
That's why I think you're not a native English speaker (another question never answered).
Phonetically there's no problem at all :

keikeni:tit = que can eat it = cake 'n' eat it = cake and eat it

In the same way that :

rokenreul = rockenroll = rock 'n' roll = rock and roll

Lennon was English, not Spanish or Italian.And you can hear that if you're English.

'Cake and eat it' coming up in the middle of all this Hispanoitaloporto neolanguage was a Lennon joke.
As was the inclusion of chickaFerdy (not Verdi as is obvious to anyone English who can distinguish an F from a V).

I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.

[raxo]

1.Word by word.

4.They ARE compatible in sound terms and that's the whole problem.
YOU can't hear that.
That's why I think you're not a native English speaker (another question never answered).
Phonetically there's no problem at all :

keikeni:tit = que can eat it = cake 'n' eat it = cake and eat it

In the same way that :

rokenreul = rockenroll = rock 'n' roll = rock and roll

Lennon was English, not Spanish or Italian.And you can hear that if you're English.

'Cake and eat it' coming up in the middle of all this Hispanoitaloporto neolanguage was a Lennon joke.
As was the inclusion of chickaFerdy (not Verdi as is obvious to anyone English who can distinguish an F from a V).

I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.

I (just me) think that that's not the best way (I've already said it) for a translation if you want to give a chance to a meaningful one (maybe it doesn't exist ... but you've got to realized later not a priori)

keikeni:tit = que can eat it ... completely wrong   :-/

Define-tely you don't know how QUE is pronounced ... and less about how good r bad was John at sunnish pronunciation (where's your proof?) ... and the example is "corazon" ... but the funny thing is that you've said that you hear it (remember the text you said you hear) ... I didn't want an embarassing situation for you (that's why I've avoided this point) but you insist once again ... if you listen to that then you can't transcript it in that wayand how to translate it then? ... translate what exactly? ... you have to decide because those sounds and those words don't fit   . And can you tell now that you're not teasing me by posting those simple examples of pronunciation to me as a lesson? C'mon!

Your last statement says it all (it seems that I owe you a favour after all, ... so let's say that you've been the patient one here):
I've been patient with you, Rax, but your superiority complex is getting in the way of a decent discussion.

If you see that ... if you still see that ... I'VE GOT ENOUGH (wave2)

P.S. The best for you and your family, mate. Tho you mightn't believe (and I may sound as a fool clown now) I don't bear a grudge against you.  

P.S.S. This easily could be my last post here so you've got all the space for you ... I'm going to my weekly reunion about superiority complex.

One thing: I've been always talking about how it all sounds and not about which certainly imaginated words should have sounded one day by one mouth, etc ... let's hear the recording: THE PROOF!



---- added after being posted: ----



3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.

P.S.S.S. It seems that I've got to explain everything here -maybe John too, about his books, ... oh, my God! maybe John was not english, uh, zipp?- :

I've got e-n/ough(t)

(more than one pun there ... and more than one way to write it too: a mess when I've tried to put all my thoughts in just one word: enough, a nought, an ought, etc ... but ENOUGH was the one that fits better and has a clear meaning as it has been showed, so the choice was clear ... *sigh* hope that those who are not so strict could get them   ... and then look who's talking about dictatorship and worse things ... me at this very moment  ) Peace of mind ... it's quite clear that you need it!

A clue for you from here: http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-books/m-1133866563/s-0/

Raxoism - word invented for general use but blithely ignored by all and sundry.

And a too explicit example here:
http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-conversations/m-1133403515/s-165/

who is gonna win the superbowl tomorrow raxo??

I steel see hawks ... that's all I can say ...

Can you see all the diferent meanings ... even the contradictatory ones ... (I'm pointing to all these but don't expect to be so clear in my future posts )

When lots of thoughts, words and kinds of structures come to my mind ... well, I'm proud of knowing different languages and I feel rich because of that, so when I'm writing I can't avoid, here and there, that kind of wordplay and puns tho I know very few people can get or understand them (sometimes noone as Kevin said).  

From here on-wars, if you see a mistake or a wrong spelling by me think that maybe I was not wrong about that but I meant it -of course I make mistakes too 'cos I write quite fast but think too many things at once too, I've even recognized one to you about "Quando" and I've said on a post I mustn't look like a god- (thing that you insist in forgeting on every post you wrote) and that I don't write just for britlanders but for everyone, everywhere ... and maybe something that's ugly for you might cause a smile to other person with a diferent mother language than you. Try to see it on that way.

----------------------------

3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.
This ugly try of ridiculin what zipp just can't understand or read prompted me to write what I call mortgaged life: some thoughts explaining some things -that I didn't want to tell because I respect zipp, but he's imposible today, so ... I had to do it to- those people who can read ... tho I might bore tkitna   ... :

About all those italian expressions:
il mio amore? ... why not amore mio, because it means (translating in your horrible style of word by word) love my ... mi amore de felice is certainly a mix of italian and sunnish using worldish for the structure ... another example is mundo paparazzi (if you translate this in your style of word by word) means world journalists but again using italian and sunnish with a worldish structure because in romanic languages it has no sense as an expression because it needs more words to work and the order of them should change to paparazzi mundo.

The main question here is why they choosed that kind of words (articles, determiners, nouns, adjectives, maybe verbs) in that special and specific order if they didn't want to say something and it all was just nonsense? ... it's much easy to say a list of nouns if you're only searching for sounds and nonsense.

But if the take enough time to make it in that way ... why wouldn't they take time to try to play with meanings? ... It's obvious for me that the structures of, for example, mi amore de felice corazon and mundo paparazzi replacing some words by the equal ones in a diferent language were worked ones and their meanings are clear too to those who can understand both languages ... the same rule must be applied to the rest of the sentences then.

The conclusion for anyone who knows something about both languages (sunnish and worldish) is that they used romanic languges (mostly sunnish) but worldish structure ...then the translation of all that should be acording to the context and not isolating word by word.

2.I know how English people pronounce a Spanish 'que' and how Lennon would, but you don't, do you.Why not?

The dictator that you seem to carry deep inside knows perfectly what I know, what I don't know and what is true, uh?
Of course I know how an english (and more nationalities, ... specially belgian 'cos I've worked for them) says 'que' ... and it seems that better than you -if that's the proof (?) you're using here-, but the mistake it's that what you say you're hearing and what you're writing IS NOT THE SAME -and this is clearly an objective matter- ... and when I said that I don't get the joke ... here I meant that there's no way to your words and your sounds (ones or others, but decide yourself) ... and I didn't mean that I didn't know how those words sound. That's something you invented by yourself, ... once again.
After all, "que" are just two sounds: a consonant and a vowel sound, and of course John can say almost perfectly sunnish words as "corazon" and others but he HAS to make the typical english mistake in "que" because ... who knows why? He would pronounced in that special way, y'know, ... what a big proof! A suspicion instead of a listening  ??)

1.I haven't got phonetic symbols on my computer but that's pretty near.And anyone who uses a dictionary can get my point.
As usual you dismiss it out of hand with no justification.

Yes, as usual in me I give no justifications ... you have an obsesion with proofs ... by the way, are you a convict?

You are as near as far to the real sounds ... but search wherever you want, but take a listen to this about the sound of "que": if Paul McCartney tells you once something that doesn't agree with what Mark says on his bibles, would you believe in the witness or in the lawyer? ... tho you maynot know that's exactly the situation here, but do whatever you want (I guess you know what is the lawyer here and who Paul). By the way, what can you tell me about this?:

http://dmbeatles.com/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-cc/m-1098136827/s-30/  (reply 33)


I know that you're trying to say that "que" sounds as the "cake" but without the ending "ke" -that it's already in the begining of "can"-, just the begining "ca" ... But you can go to any dictionary, -doesn't matter which-, the reality it's that they don't fit ... the double vocal sound in "cake" doesn't exist in "que" ... so if you're listening to that then you've got to change the word "que" in the text you posted ... but then there's no pun at all.   OK, now? (you don't know how ridiculous I feel explaining such a simple thing, as if nobody around here couldn't understand it without any help! ... But I'm learning that that's the only way with you, ... because if it's not so, then nobody knows anything: Sun King has spoken!)

About the F and V sounds ... do you -again- really think I can't distinguish them? You were teasing me, -at least I want to believe that- ... but have you ever stop yourself and wonder why some sources are saying V instead of F .. maybe there are more words than worldish out there in which those sounds are not so diferent? ... and may some  hear a word of his/her/its own language quite clear because he/she/it is awared that John was singing in some others languages?. So don't rule out a written V just because you hear a F when there are other posible languages in the game.

The sounds are the sounds ... but in which languages? but which are the words? so which are the meanings? AHA!

So you've said In your analysis I'm willing to accept your Spanish and Portuguese and Since you know a lot of Spanish I need your help and then you say that about the superiority complex ... clear your mind up, please! And if you want to translate word by word take a look at a dictionary, why are you asking for help? ... I know, ... after all, you have to admit that a translation needs something more ... and that's exactly what I'm trying to explain from the very begining!

Paul studied sunnish, oh yeah, at school and he said it on the Anthology Book (at the very begining again, so you needn't to pay a lot of atention or read too much: really good for you, uh?-) among others sources ... but you needn't to believe me ... and, as I know you need a proof for each statement, I posted a link to a sunnish site on my first post that obviously you've not visited (tho I give you time and advices about reading it all carefully, not to insist too much about Paul and sunnish, but at the end the embarrasing situation for you has come -I tried to avoid it, I swear-) ... and here's the link again (go to songs and then choose the album and the song) :

http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/  or  http://www.spanishbeatles.com/   they are the same

... and for your info I've listened to Paul speaking sunnish-and even joking about Mick Jagger and the Concert for N.Y.C. in 2001 when he answered to why Mick was not at the end with the rest of them singing Let It Be, he pronunced perfectly bathroom in sunnish that is something similar to "bano" but with the portu-guess sound "nh" instead of "n" that is not an easy word to pronunce-  ... tho I admit that his vocaboulary is not very vast, he's good at sunnish in my opinion, and not too bad at some others languages-.  ... why don't you begin to talk about proofs once again?


This is the end (altogether now: AT LAST!!! LOL and LOL again!):

I must get to the end because at the very very very beginning I was just answering a request-ion in the bootlegforum and I think that that person got an answer and now he/she/it can read a whole thread about the topic but another bittersweet experience too, ain't it?

I'm leaving now ... but my words (no few) re-main.  


"And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong
I'm (b)right
Where I belong I'm (b)right
Where I belong."

[zipp]

1.keikeni:tit = que can eat it ... completely wrong.

2.Define-tely you don't know how QUE is pronounced ...

3.If you see that ... if you still see that ... I'VE GOT ENOUGH.

1.I haven't got phonetic symbols on my computer but that's pretty near.And anyone who uses a dictionary can get my point.
As usual you dismiss it out of hand with no justification.

2.I know how English people pronounce a Spanish 'que' and how Lennon would, but you don't, do you.Why not?

3.English people don't say 'I've got enough' they say 'I've had enough'.

Adios, Rax.

[Bobber]

So sad. You two had a really good debate here. So sad to see it end like this.

[zipp]

ZIPP :
Mi amore is only HALF Italian.It doesn't mean my love.which would be 'il mio amore'.It just means 'me love' which is in fact meaningless.

De felice : felice means happy but DE doesn't exist in Italian because they use DI which becomes del, dello, della etc. depending on gender.So there again put together the two words are meaningless.[/i]

RAXO :
Have you read this?:
Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.

They're mixing sunnish and italian ("mi" and "de" ARE ITALIAN AND SUNNISH WORDS -if your kowledgement about italian is not good it's not my problem- italian words with diferent use than in sunnish and obviously here they are the sunnish ones but they seem to be replacing the correct italian ones to make the whole phrase ... 'cos the sunnish phrase is quite near to the one you can hear

As far as I can make out here, Raxo was saying that MI and DI are both Spanish and Italian.He also insinuated that I knew nothing about Italian.
I've just checked this with someone who has lived in Italy for over twenty years and he has confirmed that Italians say IL MIO AMORE, or MIO AMORE or AMORE MIO but never MI AMORE.
And the same person has confirmed that DE does NOT exist in Italian.
So the Sun King lyrics really are gobbledegook and Rax doesn't know Italian from Icelandish.

[Bobber]

So the Sun King lyrics really are gobbledegook and Rax doesn't know Italian from Icelandish.

Careful, there's people from Iceland here. Brynjar, perhaps you can have a go?

[zipp]

Careful, there's people from Iceland here. Brynjar, perhaps you can have a go?

Thank goodness Paul didn't learn Icelandish at school!

[Bobber]

He might have picked it up somewhere. You'll never know.