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[Kevin]

^ good points. I'm no neo-con by the way. I find the current administration dangerous (oh that it could be so simple and they were just plain idiots. Something very cold and calculated is going on.)
I've tried, but I still can't see how you can put any responsibility on the current president for the state of the constitution.
Just for the record, I'm not pro gun. A world without them would be a mighty fine place (unless a grizzly is about to rip your head off - then you might rethink.) And if the american people decided tomorrow to ban them, then all the power to them. All I'm trying to say that it's a complex issue that will not (in fact cannot) be solved by a few laws, regardless of who's in The Whitehouse.

[Joost]

If I were to cast stones at anyone it would be the entertainment industry who have promoted the image of guns  as being cool

I think the problem is rooted much deeper. I don't know about the rest of Europe, but if you look at the cinemas, record stores and TV and radio stations in Holland, I think about 80% of all movies and 50% of all music that we get is American. So we get pretty much the same kind of entertainment, and shootings like the one in Virginia never happened here (yet). So I think it's too easy to blame the entertainment industry.

[harihead]

Wow, Joost, thanks for that info. It's fashionable to blame the entertainment industry or the media. It relieves anyone of taking responsibility.

Regarding the Constitution, it has been amended before. We can only hope that at some point the US will realize that it is no longer a frontier nation striving for "manifest destiny" where Indians, Frenchmen, Mexicans etc. might contest the fact that we are taking their land. We done took it. Now we're just doing each other in!

[pc31]

i did not really mean it to sound like you couldn't discuss but the way you were coming down so hard it looked like you knew where to point the finger and had a solution...you don't none of us do...the availability of guns here is sickening thats true and ghetto killings are 90 percent thug related wether it be robbery or drugs....altho i believe in the right to bear arms all i own is a b b gun...i prefer a knife as a self defense mechanism or a tommy hawk....america has degenerated so far that there is no way out of it...we are the new sodom if you believe that sort of thing...but i like most american take it personal when people pick on the countrys basis of the laws that govern...we were once free and just now we are just taxed and fed lies...
my wife does a paper route from 2:30 am til 6:00 am...she should have the right to carry a weapon...there are cases where people should be allowed to carry guns.....there is a saying out law guns and then only outlaws will have guns....it's not true the paranoid will have them too...but to let the cops be the only ones with them could lead to a police state of affairs....there are too many corrupted ones to keep honest...i choose not to own guns...and hope when my kid gets old enough he doesn't want one either but he should have the right to choose if he is responsible....there are just as many cases where guns have saved lives....there are so many shooting in schools here because the public school system sucks...there needs to be serious reforms....but we got no decent politicians to pick from...everybody seems to have a hidden agenda...hard to believe but some people still think bush is doing a great job...it is too easy to keep people fooled but when they finally wake up its going to be to late....

[adamzero]

There was an interesting post to the Nashville Tennessean forum on VT shooting.  One guy decried the weakness and passiveness of the current generation who didn't "fight back."  He compared it to a class full of GI's after WWII on college on the GI bill who would have rushed and gutted the shooter with their protractors before he took any more people down.  

While the guy's a little bit out there, I think he has something of a point.  We're trained to obey in this society--whether it's the president or a madman with a gun.  Too bad nobody was able to pull a Flight 91 response on this nut before he shot more people.  At least throw some laptops at the bastard.  (Need a Gordon Liddy to tell us the ways to kill an assailant with your bare hands six times before he hits the ground.)

But you have to admire the professors who got killed saving their students.

The saddest thing of all is this guy was an English major, a Humanities student.  What the hell are we teaching in the Humanities these days?  Maybe we need to get back to the root idea of the Humanities teaching us to be human or humane.  From Nietzsche to Tarantino the death culture has run its course.  

 

[somedude210]

hmm, apparently he was court ordered unfit for and placed under medical observation...a year before this. sad, we let so many slip through the system when we have a chance to help them.

its just one of those freak things that couldve been prevented but because no one thinks long term affects of any of their actions, it happened. thanks society

[Sondra]

I can't even respond to this thread yet. Debate is healthy and I appreciate that, but it seems like some people will just jump on anything, even something as tragic as this, just to rant on what's wrong with the United States. Which would be okay if they took the time to understand this country and how to fairly compare it to other countries. To see things in such a simplistic way is just frustrating to me. That and the sheep mentality that seems to be prevalent among certain American's these days makes debate meaningless.

Anyway, the focus right now from the media and the public should be on gun control. Instead of showing video of this mentally disturbed persons ramblings over and over and over again, the news channels should be provoking discussion on the lack of gun control in this country. The parents of the victims need to unite and speak out for this cause. That would be very powerful and hard to ignore. This event is big enough to be a catalyst for change if people don't let the opportunity slip by. People have short attention spans these days and if advocates of gun control don't jump all over this right now they'll lose the chance to finally make some serious ground on this issue. This is what's wrong anymore, people don't seem to want to work hard enough for change. We can and have changed the laws in this country but it actually took some effort. I do hope something positive comes from this because at least then those people wouldn't have died in vain.

[Joost]

I can't even respond to this thread yet. Debate is healthy and I appreciate that, but it seems like some people will just jump on anything, even something as tragic as this, just to rant on what's wrong with the United States.

I did not start this thread, or post in it, just to talk sh*t about the USA. I have nothing against the USA, not at all. However... This is a problem that seems to occur much, much more ofter in the USA than anywhere else. So if you want to find out why people do things like this... You're going to have to look at the American culture and society. It's unavoidable.

[Kevin]

Wow, Joost, thanks for that info. It's fashionable to blame the entertainment industry or the media. It relieves anyone of taking responsibility.

 

Maybe not the sole reason, but just look at the "hollywood poses" (from the media) he adopted in his video. No influence?
And you can't deny that despite the US having these gun laws for over 300 years this type of random mass murder is a recent phenomena. Why suddenly do younf people get the desire to do this now? they look and act as if they're in the movies.

[Joost]

Maybe not the sole reason, but just look at the "hollywood poses" (from the media) he adopted in his video. No influence?
And you can't deny that despite the US having these gun laws for over 300 years this type of random mass murder is a recent phenomena. Why suddenly do younf people get the desire to do this now? they look and act as if they're in the movies.

I think the movies maybe inspired the way he did it... Maybe he did try to look like Rambo or someone like that... But I don't think any movie gave him the idea of actually doing such a thing... It would be naive to think that this guy would've been a good, harmless citizen if he never would've seen a violent movie in his life.

And random mass murder is something of all ages. The Vikins, the Romans, the Nazis, the Crusaders... They all did it. Those school shooting aren't something new. It's an old phenomenom in a new shape.

[legthi]

It really is debatable whether movies, music and the media had an influence over this young man's behaviour. Surely, like Joost said, it may have had an influence over the way he did it, as is with a lot of the gun shootings cases. If you look at this page: http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/weird/kids1/index_1.html  
which lists school shootings in America, you'll find that the reason or motive is because they thought it would be 'cool' and a 'fun thing to do', like theyre in the movies.
 It is young people being influenced to do this, evident in the fact that simply it IS young people doing it.  we don't get a lot of this in the UK, however in Scotland, there was the Dunblane incident. However, this was a middle aged man who went into the school and shot it up, not some 18 year old deranged kid. It indicates that there must be some kind of GUN CULTURE in the US, with these kids, and you can't nessecarily blame Marilyn Manson for this sort of thing.
Like Joost said, i'm not trying to talk sh*t about the US, but the availability of guns, and the culture which springs back a long time, HAS to be debatable!

[Sondra]

If you notice, I didn't direct that at anyone inparticular. I was just pointing it out as a fact. My coworkers and I were discussing this as work and someone brought up what the newspapers in the UK were saying and how smug they were being about this. Which is fine. I understand the attitude. But then don't expect us not to be on the defense whenever we discuss these sort of things with people outside of the US.
Maybe the reason for the defensivness is because it feels like we're slammed and blamed for every problem under the sun lately. I think you have to excuse us when we feel suspicious of your motives when you talk about our problems. I know you've got plenty of American's that are more than willing to accept the blame for just about anything and I understand that too. It's a guilt complex. But they don't represent my views and I get embarrassed when they go on about how horrible it is to live here. I mean, come on.

[legthi]

Well, i think it's fair to say that if you feel the US is blamed for everything 'under the sun lately', i have to say, most of the stuff you are blamed for, you do bear responsibility. I'm not blaming you as a person, more the desicions made by Bush. I've been following this story pretty closely and i don't find the newspapers are being particulary smug about this, however it is fair enough that you, American citizens should have to be defensive about the whole thing.

[Bobber]

As the old Chinese say: high trees catch a lot of wind.

[legthi]

Whats that meant to meen?

[An Apple Beatle]

If you notice, I didn't direct that at anyone inparticular. I was just pointing it out as a fact. My coworkers and I were discussing this as work and someone brought up what the newspapers in the UK were saying and how smug they were being about this. Which is fine. I understand the attitude. But then don't expect us not to be on the defense whenever we discuss these sort of things with people outside of the US.
Maybe the reason for the defensivness is because it feels like we're slammed and blamed for every problem under the sun lately. I think you have to excuse us when we feel suspicious of your motives when you talk about our problems. I know you've got plenty of American's that are more than willing to accept the blame for just about anything and I understand that too. It's a guilt complex. But they don't represent my views and I get embarrassed when they go on about how horrible it is to live here. I mean, come on.

Who can be smug over meaningless death? Thats rubbish and certainly does not represent peoples views over here. The papers hardly ever do. This country has had Dunblane & Hungerford, so it's not as if we have not dealt with the same problem.
Nothing will change though, it's too ingrained into society. I agree about seizing the moment so their lives do not go in vain but will anything actually be done? I just doubt it. Maybe it's that suspicion you talk of which America has on all the world and even itself, that is the deep rooted problem? Why should we excuse that?

It will all blow over in a week or two and America can go on protecting its fuel interests. I noticed now that global warming could have an effect on US national security, the big-wigs are gonna have some meetings on the problem....How many years has the rest of the world had to ask for this just on environmental grounds.

Thats why there is an air of arrogance to the rest of the world. That attitude is easy to understand but I would give more credit to Beatle listeners to transcend this argument as a national problem...it is a world problem that can only get worse!

It's often said that the UK is 10 years behind America in it's trends......That bodes well then...Obesity, guns and outragoues war decisions.  :

When personal freedom is threatened, I give a sh*t.

[The End]

Someone brought up what the newspapers in the UK were saying and how smug they were being about this.

I must admit that the news articles I have read have been REALLY sympathetic - however, they have raised the question as to why, after the last tragedy, and after all the rhetoric in Congress about changing gun laws, nothing was done - again. I haven't detected any smugness in the UK media - after all, the UK is currently going through it's own violence crisis after a recent spate of stabbings and shootings.  

[Bobber]

Sandra said that 'some people will just jump on anything, even something as tragic as this, just to rant on what's wrong with the United States. Which would be okay if they took the time to understand this country and how to fairly compare it to other countries.'

Now, how much time does the American government usually take to understand other countries? Just a question, not an opinion. What I meant with the old Chinese saying, is that people (or for that matter countries) that are big and willing to put their head up, will always encounter resistance. Famous people that are always in the spotlight, will be haunted by paparazzi. The United States has had strong foreign politics since World War I (Korea, Vietnam and others), so it is no surprise that they encounter repression and resistance against that policy. The US wants to mind its own business and that's fine. But then, why don't they let other countries to mind their own business as well? Just a question, again.

[legthi]

I must admit that the news articles I have read have been REALLY sympathetic - however, they have raised the question as to why, after the last tragedy, and after all the rhetoric in Congress about changing gun laws, nothing was done - again. I haven't detected any smugness in the UK media - after all, the UK is currently going through it's own violence crisis after a recent spate of stabbings and shootings.  

Yeah, right, remember the knife ammnesty a while ago?? In places like Birmingham and Nottingham, it's a serious problem, knife AND gun crime.

[Sondra]

Wow, I see the defenses really going up here. How ironic. I don't think what I was saying is being understood. I am in no way saying that this country isn't responsible for a lot of crap. That was besides the point. I was pointing out why some of us tend to be defensive about critisism. I see that my critisism hit a nerve with some of you. So you can't relate to where I'm coming from then? I'm not saying people from other countries shouldn't debate, but yeah, I think they should be more informed when throwing out statistics and blanket statements. And I don't think it's fair to throw out how uninformed American's are. That's attitude is coming from ages ago. Things are changing over her and we are becoming more aware. Thank God we're finally trying to step outside our little box. It's a small step, but change takes time. Anyway, I didn't mean to anger anybody or offend anybody. All I was trying to do was to state where I was coming from and how I was seeing things. I could be completely wrong, but I'm only trying to express my feelings on this.