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[Normandie]

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[Moogmodule]

I've been reading Graeme Thomson's bio of George, Behind the Locked Door, and in it he erroneously/mistakenly claims that John's Uncle George Smith was Harrison's elementary school English teacher. Apparently, though, the teacher in question was—I believe—in fact one of George Smith's brothers, Alfred J. Smith. Thomson's book is meticulously annotated but, frustratingly, this is one of the few sentences for which he does not cite a source (probably there is none because, as far as I can tell, this statement is not correct).

Last night I was searching online for some information about Alfred J. Smith, and I came across a site that has an incredibly detailed history of George Smith's family. Thus far I have only skimmed it, but I plan to read it in more detail as soon as I get time (ha).

I'm not sure if this site would interest anybody because it is very narrow in focus, and it's incredibly detailed, but I thought I'd share it anyway, in case anyone wants to take a look:

http://www.davejoy-author.com/the-john-lennon-connection.html

I recall seeing that in that biography and my first reaction was, wow that’s interesting. Before a few minutes  of referring to other sources showed that to be incorrect. Thomson does seem to be generally good so I wonder if such an easily checked error was inadvertent. I can’t remember the exact wording but maybe it was as simple  as “George Smith’s  brother” becoming George in the journey from pen to printing.

Will check out your link 

[Normandie]

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[zipp]

This is an amazing find Normandie.

I've always been surprised at the name George Toogood Smith. The blog you've found shows that Toogood was originally an ancestor's surname. So I imagine, giving it as one of his first names kept the ancestral name alive.

I think this may also be a question of fashion. In the early twentieth century it was maybe fashionable to use a surname as a first name.

My father, who was born in 1912, was given the first name Clough (pronounced Cluff) which is a fairly common surname where I come from.

I'll obviuosly be reading the blog again, so maybe you can tell us what we're actually looking for so we can help out.

[Normandie]

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[zipp]

Lewisohn says that George Toogood Smith was no longer at the dairy job when John was at Mendips. He was cleaning trams. He descibes this as a 'downscale slip'. The blog doesn't mention this.

Nevertheless, I find those photos of cows in the streets of Liverpool pretty amazing. They seem almost surreal.

[zipp]

I've been reading Graeme Thomson's bio of George, Behind the Locked Door, and in it he erroneously/mistakenly claims that John's Uncle George Smith was Harrison's elementary school English teacher. Apparently, though, the teacher in question was—I believe—in fact one of George Smith's brothers, Alfred J. Smith. Thomson's book is meticulously annotated but, frustratingly, this is one of the few sentences for which he does not cite a source (probably there is none because, as far as I can tell, this statement is not correct).

Yes, you're right . George Smith's brother, Alred John Smith was the English teacher. He did well for himself since everybody else in the family was involved in cow-keeping.

Alfred taught English at the Liverpool Institute which was a grammar school (not an elementary school) and where Paul and George went

Lewisohn says Mimi didn't send Lennon to the Institute because she didn't want any family tensions between John and Alfred.

So that's why John was sent to Quarry Bank Grammar School.

If Alfred had been a teacher at Quarry Bank we can only assume that Mimi would have sent John to the Institute.

So there would then have been three Beatles in different years at the same school!

[Normandie]

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[zipp]

In the States, an elementary school and a grammar school are the same thing. But a search revealed that an English grammar school involves students from 11 to 18 (according to the source I found), which is quite different.

In fact the term "elementary school" is no longer used in England and hasn't been since at least the end of world war two.

In the fifties and afterwards there were primary schools (a term still used today) which could be sub-divided into infants and juniors. Primary schools were for childern from 5 to 11.

At age eleven you took a very important exam called the "eleven plus".

This could open the doors to a grammar school. If you were less successful you went to a secondary modern school. The former were single sex and the latter were for both sexes.

John, Paul and George were intelligent kids and earned places at grarmmar schools. Ringo failed his eleven plus and went to Dingle Vale Secondary Modern School.

[Normandie]

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[stevie]

Re the surname as first name stuff, in the US in the late 19th century, quite often the first born child would have the mother’s maiden name as their christian name. Interesting

[zipp]

Thank you for clarifying all that, zipp. I've always been a bit confused by the terms used for the English education system.

To be complete, you need to know that there are also some very expensive private schools.

The most famous of these schools is Eton. Along with Harrow and Radlley, this school is still today boys only and boarders only, meaning pupils live there permanently during term time.

Most (probably all) grammar schools are now co-educational, meaning they are for both boys and girls together.

Confusingly, these expensive private schools are called public schools.

Nobody from the Beatles environment (working or lower middle class) would have anything like enough money to send a child to a public school.

[Normandie]

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[zipp]

Re the surname as first name stuff, in the US in the late 19th century, quite often the first born child would have the mother’s maiden name as their christian name. Interesting

Yes, I didn't know that.

Something similar seems to have happened concerning George Smith since the 'Toogood' comes from his female ancestry.