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[Hello Goodbye]

Morons!

[Hello Goodbye]

Oh, and there was a shortage of binoculars on board the Titanic.  Common sense dictates that the lookouts on the masthead should have been issued binoculars.  Did they have them that night?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIa2vJD52HU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIa2vJD52HU</a>

No.

[Normandie]

Oh, and there was a shortage of binoculars on board the Titanic.  Common sense dictates that the lookouts on the masthead should have been issued binoculars.  Did they have them that night?

Correct; they did not. Davy Blair held the key to the locker in which the binoculars were stored, so they were inaccessible. He was bumped off at the big last-minute shakeup in the Titanic's deck officers, which caused Murdoch, Lightoller, et al. to all get bumped down a notch after Capt. Smith insisted that Henry Tighe Wilde be made First Officer.

Also, the lookouts were not on the masthead; they were only in the crow's nest. Capt. Rostron of the Carpathia had lookouts installed all over, including on the masthead. He took a much more prudent approach.

I hold Capt. Smith, and Capt. Lord of the Californian,  to a higher level of blame than I do Bruce Ismay. Neither of them did anything useful. At least Ismay tried to get people into the lifeboats,.

Yeesh, I'd better stop now. I could go on and on and on (and on) . . . I actually just rejoined the Encyclopedia Titanica forum after having been chased off by a stalker-ish person about 20 years ago. 

[Hello Goodbye]

I just like to rag on Ismay, Kathy.  He looks very ragable.   

It's my understanding that the crow's nest is the basket-like structure on the foremast, or on the tallest mast on sailing ships, for a ship's masthead lookout(s).  Just some nautical terminology bandied about but the video showed what I meant.

[Normandie]

I just like to rag on Ismay, Kathy.  He looks very ragable.   

I always take the bait when it comes to Ismay.    I just feel for him.

It's my understanding that the crow's nest is the basket-like structure on the foremast, or on the tallest mast on sailing ships, for a ship's masthead lookout(s).  Just some nautical terminology bandied about but the video showed what I meant.

Oh, OK; I was under the impression that the masthead was the further-most part of a ship, but my terminology is not always accurate. When I first started my ocean liner reading I did not know port from starboard, or bow from stern—!! I've learned a lot, but there's always more to be done.

[Hello Goodbye]

I understand that Ismay led a reclusive life afterward.  He felt guilty about something.  Or maybe he just wanted to get away from people like me who were ragging on him.   

I don't know what it was about that Californian crew.  Ten miles is pretty far away at sea on a dark night.  They saw the white skyrockets launched by the Titanic and they thought they were having a party?  Didn't they see the distress light signals coming from the Titanic?

[Normandie]

I understand that Ismay led a reclusive life afterward.  He felt guilty about something.  Or maybe he just wanted to get away from people like me who were ragging on him.   

Yes, I think he wanted to get out, and stay out, of the public eye.

I don't know what it was about that Californian crew.  Ten miles is pretty far away at sea on a dark night.  They saw the white skyrockets launched by the Titanic and they thought they were having a party?  Didn't they see the distress light signals coming from the Titanic?

I have to again recommend Dan Butler's The Other Side of the Night. He makes a compelling case for the fact that the crew of the Californian were so terrified of Capt. Lord that they didn't push the issue. He was initially informed that a rocket had been sighted, and he gave some lame instruction along the lines of "let me know if you see another." I concur with Butler that Lord likely was a sociopath.

Morons!

Well, in partial defense of Capt. Smith, consider this: The Titanic's Marconi set was broken for several hours that Sunday. One of the two operators, Jack Phillips, managed to repair it, and by that point he and the other operator, Harold Bride, were extremely backed up. They had a huge backlog of messages to send, mostly social missives from first-class passengers, but also ice warnings from other ships. After the Californian stopped for the night, that ship's Marconi operator, Cyril Evans, tried to contact the Titanic to let them know the Californian was surrounded by ice and thus had stopped. But Phillips, who was overworked and tired, snapped at him and cut him off before the message could be conveyed. So who knows how things would have turned out if that message had in fact gotten through. Also, Evans was so peeved at Phillips's brush-off that he shut down the Californian's Marconi set for the night, and they never received the Titanic's distress calls.

Yikes, now I really will shut up. 

[Hello Goodbye]

Despite the temporary malfunction of the ship's radio and the resultant backlog of messages, Captain Smith was aware of icebergs ahead on the route the Titanic was on from earlier messages received from other ships making the Atlantic crossing.  Continuing at nearly full speed on a moonless night and on a calm sea where there were no waves crashing against icebergs rendering them more visible was an irresponsible action taken by Captain Smith that night.  Did he know that the lookouts had no binoculars?  Who knows?!  He wasn't around to give testimony at the inquiry.

When I was pilot-in-command of the airplane I was flying, I assumed full responsibility for the safety of the flight from takeoff to landing and full responsibility for the lives of all souls on board.  There were occasions where I had to cancel a planned flight when after checking weather forecasts I determined the flight to be unsafe.  Indeed, there were times I diverted to an alternate airport when weather alerts I was receiving enroute informed me that conditions had suddenly deteriorated at my destination airport.  Captain Smith had that same responsibility as captain of his ship.  As I mentioned before, he was clearly derelict in his responsibility.

[Hello Goodbye]

I have to again recommend Dan Butler's The Other Side of the Night. He makes a compelling case for the fact that the crew of the Californian were so terrified of Capt. Lord that they didn't push the issue. He was initially informed that a rocket had been sighted, and he gave some lame instruction along the lines of "let me know if you see another." I concur with Butler that Lord likely was a sociopath.

Is Dan Butler a psychiatrist or a psychologist?  Did he ever examine Captain Lord to make that diagnosis?  I haven't read his book but if that's what he concluded then I consider it irresponsible writing on his part.

Did you ever read Herman Wouk's 1951 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel The Caine Mutiny?  This clip from the 1954 motion picture by the same name follows the novel precisely...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJapflcYch0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJapflcYch0</a>

Fred MacMurray, playing Lt. Tom Keefer, is a writer yet he is coming up with a diagnosis of a condition he knows nothing about.  The novel and movie end with a court martial for the mutiny Keefer encouraged.  I won't tell you the ending in case you haven't read the novel or seen the movie.

[Normandie]

Continuing at nearly full speed on a moonless night and on a calm sea where there were no waves crashing against icebergs rendering them more visible was an irresponsible action taken by Captain Smith that night. 

I'll grant you those two points. Smith was clearly derelict in his duty in some regards. But if the only book you've read is A Night to Remember, Barry, you may want to hold off on all the judgment until you've read further. To that end, I am promising myself not to get entangled in debates of this sort again. 

I don't recall what Dan's formal career is, but he is a brilliant historian and a careful, thorough researcher. He's very well respected in the ocean liner community. Obviously he never examined Capt. Lord. You can contact him directly via his website, http://www.danielallenbutler.org, if you wish to pursue the argument with him. 

I haven't read his book but if that's what he concluded then I consider it irresponsible writing on his part.

I recommend you read his book before dismissing his claims out of hand, which he carefully backed up. And he never claimed to have a definitive diagnosis; he mde it clear he was speculating as a nonexpert. The only information he had to go on was retrospective in nature. And given that none of Lord's descendants have sued him for defamation, he may likely have hit on the truth.

Actually, to end this post on a humorous note (instead of my current irritable one, LOL), back in the 90s on a Titanic email list, in which all posts went to every list member (as opposed to a forum such as this one, where you can pick and choose which posts to read), someone with whom I'd been chatting offline about a particular issue flagged it for Dan Butler publicly, on the list: "Hey, Dan; Kathy doesn't agree with you on such-and-such a point; she'll be contacting you about it." This, while I sat horror-struck at my computer, waving my arms and wailing "Nooo! Why did you say that?" Then I had to suck it up and actually contact him. And he was super-nice. 

[nimrod]

Meanwhile I'm reading a very simple crime thriller.

Blood Line by Linda La Plante

[Loco Mo]

Loco Mo on March 19, 2022, 03:34:08 PM
It's a shame the way Pattie and George broke up but even sadder is her taking up with Eric Clapton.

What makes you say that Loco? I'm just curious, not trying to challenge you.

Normandie:  Sorry about the late reply.  I didn't like Eric based upon what she said about him in her autobiography.  All the drug and alcohol abuse and his infidelity.  She was infertile and trying for years to have his baby.  In the meantime, he slept with someone else, and she had his baby very soon afterward.  He shared "his happy news" with Pattie as if he expected her to celebrate that other lady's pregnancy with him.  I especially hated when he told George that "I'm in love with your wife" in front of him.  I am telling you I would have wanted to beat the crap out of him if he said that to me about my wife.  I would have hated him intensely.  I am baffled my George's mainly lame reaction and the fact that he continued to be friends with him going forward.  Disgusting!  It makes me think George was a wimp and an idiot or a coward who didn't have it in him to confront Eric in any emotional or meaningful way.  Worse, George copied Eric later when he announced to Ringo that he was in love with his wife, Maureen.   I have to not think about this so that I can continue to enjoy George's music and Eric's as well.  In an interview years later, Eric said that he didn't really think he was in love with Pattie at the time thus adding further insult to injury.  Yet, I think she said they're still friends.  What???  My God, he was obsessed with her.  Talk about a stalker!!  But, yeah, most fans will overlook that.  And why were all the rock stars obsessively addicted to sex, drugs (especially cocaine), and alcohol?  I wish there were one good soul with some self-control and integrity among them.  Read their biographies - they're all the same.  I don't like writing this post.  It makes me so mad.

[Normandie]

Meanwhile I'm reading a very simple crime thriller.

Blood Line by Linda La Plante

That looks good. I'm reading The Wizard of Lies, about Bernie Madoff.

[Normandie]

I didn't like Eric based upon what she said about him in her autobiography.  All the drug and alcohol abuse and his infidelity.  She was infertile and trying for years to have his baby. 

Ah, I had forgotten that. A good point. I can't imagine how devastating that was for Pattie.    And how clueless—or deliberately cruel?—of Eric.

I wish there were one good soul with some self-control and integrity among them.  Read their biographies - they're all the same.  I don't like writing this post.  It makes me so mad.

I've read Eric's autobiography, and several others. From what I can see, Eric has really cleaned up his act and is now clean from drugs and happily and stably married.  But I understand your frustration.

[Loco Mo]

Thanks, Normandie:  I'm glad to know Eric's currently clean.  Does the present redeem the past?  I guess that's a philosophical question.

Anyway, my head's been full of negative thoughts lately, so I've been susceptible to getting drawn into negative energies.  I always have to remind myself of "There but for the grace of God, go I."   Who's to say I'd have been any better given the wealth and fame that Eric had.

I am very sure that fame would have totally gone to my head.  Fortunately, being an ordinary so-called everyday person has precluded me from having any semblance of a large ego or inflated sense of self.

It seems anytime I started thinking I was kind of important or smart, there was always someone present to remind me that I was not.  Oh, I have some bad memories of people whom I do not like to remember.

[Normandie]

Does the present redeem the past?  I guess that's a philosophical question.

To offer a more concrete, and personal, reply to that, no. All a recovered addict can do is move on and hope that people can compassionately forgive their past behavior. Pattie apparently is one of those people.

[Hello Goodbye]

I'll grant you those two points. Smith was clearly derelict in his duty in some regards.

Again, Kathy, the captain of a ship assumes full responsibility for all souls on board in all regards.  When I was licensed as a pilot  by the Federal Aviation Administration, the responsibility for conducting a safe flight and the responsibility for the safety of all souls on board was made very clear to me and my signature on my license attested to that.  Captain Smith was responsible for more than 2200 souls on board the Titanic on its maiden voyage.  He knew of icebergs present on his route early on.  I understand that some later updates were not handled appropriately by the radio telegraph operators.  It was Captain Smith's duty to inquire about subsequent warnings which he didn't do.  He should have checked with the wireless officers for those updates.  If he did then they could have rectified their error.  Their error became the Captain's error.  That's how it is with being Captain-in-Command responsible for 2200 souls on board and that's how it is when I become Pilot-in-Command with 4 souls on board.  There is no "partial responsibility" in these matters.

I recommend you read his book before dismissing his claims out of hand, which he carefully backed up. And he never claimed to have a definitive diagnosis; he mde it clear he was speculating as a nonexpert. The only information he had to go on was retrospective in nature. And given that none of Lord's descendants have sued him for defamation, he may likely have hit on the truth.

Then the author admits that he was just speculating on Captain Lord's psychiatric status.  If he labeled him as a sociopath then that was wrong of him to do as he did not have any medical credentials to make that diagnosis.  His writing abilities do not enter into the picture in this matter.  Also, not being sued by Captain Lord's descendants is not a very good argument in this case.

More important than reading Dan Butler's book would be reading all testimonies given at the formal inquest.

I too am not looking to enter into any debates on this matter.  I'm just giving my opinions based on a similar rating I hold as being Pilot-in-Command when I assume that role.

[Normandie]

^^^^

I'm stepping away from this argument because we are going in circles and your tone is becoming patronizing. I would encourage you to read the transcripts of the American inquiry and the British Board of Trade inquiry, neither of which censured Smith. 

[Hello Goodbye]

What I wrote is not patronizing in any way.  It's simple fact regarding the responsibility one assumes when being a captain or pilot in command.  It's the most serious responsibility one can assume when it involves being responsible for the lives of others.

I assume similar responsibilities in my profession and have sworn an oath in that regard.  I don't expect others outside my profession to understand.  But I do resent being called patronizing.

[Normandie]

I assume similar responsibilities in my profession and have sworn an oath in that regard.  I don't expect others outside my profession to understand.  But I do resent being called patronizing.

OK. To clarify, Barry, and not to emphasize semantics to a picky degree, I wrote that your tone was becoming patronizing, not that you as a person are patronizing. One doesn't need to be a professional aviator, sailor, etc., to be able to critique a situation such as Capt. Smith and the Titanic.

Again, I encourage you to read the transcript inquiries, and perhaps to take this argument to the Encyclopedia Titanica site, which is populated by historians and scholars much better qualified than I to argue these points.