Meet people from all over the World
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: Paul's relation to John - the early years  (Read 2947 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

alexis

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1860
Paul's relation to John - the early years
« on: April 26, 2009, 11:21:02 PM »

Hi All  :)

Lots has been written about how the two got along, or didn't, in the middle and later years, with John pretty much along for a heroin-clouded ride by the end.

But ...has anyone read anything about when, and especially how, the transition occurred from the days of John being undisputed alpha dog? As near as I can imagine, this occurred sometime between the time they got back from Hamburg/c. 1962, and Help. Maybe this can be narrowed down some more to around the Hard Day's Night album, where though John wrote the majority of the songs, Paul had the worldwide huge #1 "Can't Buy Me Love"?  

I remember hearing a 1962 radio interview (maybe their first one, done by a University student if I remember) where when the interviewer asked who the leader of the band was, and Paul quickly said "John is". But by the BBC tapes, I think he makes comments that suggest that he wasn't entirely happy with that state of affairs ("Who was the worst actor?" ... "I think John was...", or something like that).

I guess this is a silly thread, really, but I can't help it - I think about these things with John and Paul a lot!

Thanks!
Logged
I love John,
I love Paul,
And George and Ringo,
I love them all!

Alexis
Sheet Music Plus Homepage

fendertele

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1969
  • "Confusion will be my epitaph"
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2009, 09:43:47 PM »

no its very interesting, i think when youre younger the age gap can have a bigger impact on a relationship, like if i was 16 and they were 19  iwould look up to them as an adult and also wannabe like them but when it becomes 20 and 23 there doesnt seem as big a gap and you can sometimes realise they werent as mature and cool as i thought they were.

I thin Paul looked up to john when he was younger as john was older,more confident and had settles into his own personality, were as paul was still finding his and with that maybe came some insecurity.

Also when Paul first joined he was the Newbie and had to impress the others including John.
Logged

tkitna

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8619
  • I'm a Moondog,,,,,are you?
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 12:07:36 AM »

I think John relinquished a lot of the leader role after 'HELP!' (he was crying out after all), but I feel he and Paul were pretty even in that aspect up until 'Peppers' where John's laziness got the best of him. After he met Yoko,,,forget it. He could have cared less about the Beatles at that point. Also, Brians death had a large part too.

pc31

  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11736
  • WE SOUL OUR SOULS FOR ROCK AND ROLL!!!!
    • the moondogs
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 01:03:01 AM »

actually he was going to quit the band after help came out...so right after help he didn't care which direction the band took....
Logged

alexis

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 03:30:20 AM »

Quote from: 284
actually he was going to quit the band after help came out...so right after help he didn't care which direction the band took....

I didn't remember that PC ... where did you read that, if you remember? What did he want to do instead?

Thanks!

Logged
I love John,
I love Paul,
And George and Ringo,
I love them all!

Alexis

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 07:29:04 AM »

Quote from: 568

I didn't remember that PC ... where did you read that, if you remember? What did he want to do instead?

Thanks!


Yes, I read that somewhere too. I think he wanted to join the Ronettes.  ;D
Logged

Kevin

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5543
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 08:35:27 AM »

I think John relinquished the Alpha Beatle role the day they signed Epstein's contract. Other than matters of music (and even that was under the ever-watchful gaze of Martin) what decisions were left for the band to make? They did what they were told when they were told.
When the job vacancy did arise in 67 it was Macca not Lennon that stepped into the void.
Logged
don't follow leaders

Penny Lane

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4106
  • Paulinate me
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 08:55:39 AM »

Quote from: 185
When the job vacancy did arise in 67 it was Macca not Lennon that stepped into the void.

Would it be acceptable to say that Paul saved the Beatles (although he annoyed them)?

Logged

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 09:01:02 AM »

Quote from: 1620

Would it be acceptable to say that Paul saved the Beatles (although he annoyed them)?


I think he extended their excistence with another two years or so.
Logged

DaveRam

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2894
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 09:30:01 AM »

^^^^^ Kind of like putting a sick patient on a ventilator Bobber ?
Logged

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 09:32:58 AM »

Quote from: 971
^^^^^ Kind of like putting a sick patient on a ventilator Bobber ?

I'd rather say he kept the others in a coma for a couple of years!
Logged

Kevin

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5543
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 09:56:33 AM »

Quote from: 1620

Would it be acceptable to say that Paul saved the Beatles (although he annoyed them)?


I'd go with that.
Logged
don't follow leaders

Gloi

  • One And One Is Two
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 34
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 11:08:11 AM »

I think he was always Alpha dog until the end. Paul might well have been doing all the work and doing the best to steer the ship but I can't imagine John putting up with the any of the others behaving the way he was towards the end of the group. That they went out of their way to accomodate his moods and behaviour as much as they did, despite John's later complaints about how they treated Yoko etc. says a lot that he was the one that they all deferred to.
Logged

alexis

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 11:39:23 AM »

Quote from: 1302
I think he was always Alpha dog until the end. Paul might well have been doing all the work and doing the best to steer the ship but I can't imagine John putting up with the any of the others behaving the way he was towards the end of the group. That they went out of their way to accomodate his moods and behaviour as much as they did, despite John's later complaints about how they treated Yoko etc. says a lot that he was the one that they all deferred to.

Wow, very insightful gloi, I think you have something there.
Logged
I love John,
I love Paul,
And George and Ringo,
I love them all!

Alexis

Kevin

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5543
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 12:04:01 PM »

Quote from: 1302
I think he was always Alpha dog until the end. Paul might well have been doing all the work and doing the best to steer the ship but I can't imagine John putting up with the any of the others behaving the way he was towards the end of the group. That they went out of their way to accomodate his moods and behaviour as much as they did, despite John's later complaints about how they treated Yoko etc. says a lot that he was the one that they all deferred to.

Sorry but I don't see your logic. They repeatedly rejected his songs as singles and refused to follow his political path. He was forced to take his ideas and music outside the Beatles. Hardly defference. Surely I could lay equal claim to the fact that they put up with what they did (which wasn't alot - the bulk of his "unusual" behaviour occurred outside the band) because they valued him and wanted the band to continue. I don't think anyone would consider The Beatles without Paul or John.
You say that if the roles were reversed then John wouldn't have put up with Paul's (ie John's behaviour.) We don't know that, plus if it were true it could just as equally show that John wasn't as interested in The Beatles continued success as Paul, or that he was moody pratt.
Logged
don't follow leaders

tkitna

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8619
  • I'm a Moondog,,,,,are you?
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 12:43:59 AM »

I dont think John was offering much as in the way of songs either during the later years, but thats always just opinion I suppose.

fendertele

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1969
  • "Confusion will be my epitaph"
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 06:18:55 AM »

Quote from: 373
I dont think John was offering much as in the way of songs either during the later years, but thats always just opinion I suppose.

I was watching the Simpsons the other ngiht and it was the episode where Frank Grimes is in it, and couldnt help thinking of Paul (Frank Grimes) and John (Homer)
Logged

Jane

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3760
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2009, 08:21:56 PM »

Quote from: 1620

Would it be acceptable to say that Paul saved the Beatles (although he annoyed them)?


Then it would be possible to say that the minute John retreated (in 1967), took one step back, Paul took one step forward to fill in the gap, that seemed to appear. And the band started to disband. The guys were not prepared to accept the new so called leader because there has never been one domineering leader (only two). They have always been rather democratic, with Lennon being a nominal leader, a figurehead, the main founder. (But never authoritarian or something). But Paul started to impose his line, that`s why he annoyed them to some extent.
So I don`t think that with his stepping forward Paul saved the Beatles, but both his and John`s behaviour ruined them.
At that very time they should have taken a break.
Logged

Penny Lane

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 4106
  • Paulinate me
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2009, 08:55:09 PM »

Quote from: 1393
Then it would be possible to say that the minute John retreated (in 1967), took one step back, Paul took one step forward to fill in the gap, that seemed to appear. And the band started to disband. The guys were not prepared to accept the new so called leader because there has never been one domineering leader (only two). They have always been rather democratic, with Lennon being a nominal leader, a figurehead, the main founder. (But never authoritarian or something). But Paul started to impose his line, that`s why he annoyed them to some extent.
So I don`t think that with his stepping forward Paul saved the Beatles, but both his and John`s behaviour ruined them.
At that very time they should have taken a break.

But I wonder what might have happened if Paul never stepped into a leadership role, if he had remained completely passive.  I think the band would have disintegrated far more quickly without his trying to take charge.  His bossiness was not endearing but he deserves a little more credit for trying to hold things together, even if he was annoying.

Again, though, there were so many factors that contributed to the Beatles' breakup, not just the behaviors of the individual band members.

I do agree with you, however, that taking breaks from each other was a good idea.  John, George, and Ringo did "quit" the band for a bit.  Did Paul ever "quit" and return before he finally left for good?
Logged

Jane

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3760
Re: Paul's relation to John - the early years
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 08:59:43 PM »

Quote from: 1620

But I wonder what might have happened if Paul never stepped into a leadership role, if he had remained completely passive.  I think the band would have disintegrated far more quickly without his trying to take charge.  His bossiness was not endearing but he deserves a little more credit for trying to hold things together, even if he was annoying.

Again, though, there were so many factors that contributed to the Beatles' breakup, not just the behaviors of the individual band members.

I do agree with you, however, that taking breaks from each other was a good idea.  John, George, and Ringo did "quit" the band for a bit.  Did Paul ever "quit" and return before he finally left for good?

Yes, I agree with you. I am sure that Paul was the person who was most concerned about the band and its future at least at that time. John was losing interest and then got busy with Yoko, George was discontent with his status and seemed to be happier in religion, spending time in India, Ringo just left and remained passive. And only Paul was preoccupied with the band. Moreover, when he declared his withdrawal, and when they parted it was he who was overwhelmed by the separation more than all the others, who felt even some relief.
Paul took it hardest of all, was thoroughly depressed and called himself "the redundant man".
Nevertheless, though the rest were tired, none of them, I think, had the real desire to disband. Although it was Lennon who had pushed for divorce before that, he, when Paul sued the three of them, said that he couldn`t understand why Paul wanted to break up.
So, who knows, maybe if Paul hadn`t sued them, they might have stayed together longer after just having a break, either short or long, to take some fresh air.
However, on the other hand, they might have never returned to the negotiating table again, and the disbanding would have occurred earlier than it actually did. A dilemma!
Logged
 

Page created in 1.21 seconds with 81 queries.