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[Geoff]

ah - but it's like waves lapping against a mighty cliff - apparently harmless but crumbling bit by bit until one day it just falls into the ocean.

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that), but of course societies and institutions evolve over time anyway, and since I don't see how allowing gay marriages diminishes or erodes heterosexual marriage as an institution, on balance I come down in favor of it.  

[Kevin]

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that),

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.

[Geoff]

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.

(rolling3)

Not sure I see the objection to wanton debauchery, though. Good luck with the mob.  

[Joost]

To get back to the family values thing... In the Netherlands we've gone as far as giving married same-sex couples the same adoption rights as heterosexual couples. So homosexuals can adopt children just as easily as heterosexuals. And of course lesbians can always have children without adopting. So there are families being built on same-sex marriages...

[Mairi]

Personally speaking, I think it would be much healthier for a child to grow up in a homosexual two-parent family than a single-parent heterosexual family.

[Sondra]

You know, there are SO many kids out there in need of a home. This should just be looked upon as another way to match these children up with loving parents. Heterosexual couples rarely adopt. They want their own. I think it's a positive in this way. And I think more people should consider adoption over all these bizarre medical "breakthroughs."

[Mairi]

Yeah, that's so true. In-vitro fertilization and all that is WAY more expensive than adopting anyway.

[Sondra]

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.

[An Apple Beatle]

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.

I'm wid dat.

[Sondra]

I'm wid dat.

For some reason, I'd love to hear what that sentence sounds like coming from an English guy! Just like I'd love to hear what it sounds like for an American guy to say, oh dear!  

[An Apple Beatle]

I have been playing some funk tonight and it went well....Sorry, couldn't contain myself. Speaking my thoughts. xxx

It was agreement not mocking.

[Sondra]

Heh. However, just to clarify, what I meant was, it would probably sound adorable in either case seeing as how it's not the "norm."  

[Joost]

How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own?

I don't know what exactly the deal is with adoption in the USA, but here it takes a huge amount of money, time and effort to adopt a baby. There are just around 50 Dutch children per year put up for adoption (which is of course a very positive thing), so most people who want to adopt a child have to go to Asia, Africa or South-America and usually run into a giant wall of bureaucracy and corruction.

I know a married couple that tried to adopt a child from Brazil a few years ago. Both of them, the man and the woman, were infertile so it was their only option. First they had to deal with Dutch adoption laws. That couple owns a bar and restaurant, and it turns out that for some reason you're not allowed to adopt children if you own a bar. I know it's insane, but that's how it is. So they moved to Belgium (we live just a few miles from the border) because laws aren't as strict there. In the next two years they went to Brazil three times to get all the paperwork done. Then they were finally told that they could come get their child (they already knew his name and had gotten some photos). When they arrived in Brazil, they found out that the child had been illegally sold to a rich Brazilian couple a few days earlier and that they had to start all over again from scratch.

[DaveRam]

When i worked as a child protection social worker in the late 80's and adoption and fostering was part of my job i can tell you it was always difficult to find suitable people to either adopt or foster a child .
Firstly the bureaucracy and vetting procedures often put people off , it could take up to 12 month to finalize an adoption especially with older children .
I never completed an adoption procedure in my two years in the job , but i did have as part of my case load an adoption breakdown , which was very difficult .
The adoption failed when the adoptive parents family dog died and the adopted child did'nt show any grief at the dogs death .
This was their bizarre reason for nolonger wanting the child , who they had for five years .
So the child had to come back into care .
Fotunately the child had an older brother who was now of an age too take on the care , we were able with lots of support to place the child with the brother and have a successful outcome too this situation.
Most adoptions although long winded do work - out fine for the child .
But it is not easy finding people who want to adopt an older child , most people want a baby  , there are thousands of young children under ten in foster care at the moment and nobody seems to want to give these children a loving stable home .

[Sondra]

Exactly true. People want babies. Babies without any baggage.

On any given day in the United States, more than 100,000 foster children are waiting to be adopted by someone who can provide a permanent, loving home. While they wait, these children often live with foster parents, with relatives, or in group homes or institutions. Extensive recruitment efforts have been undertaken at the state and federal levels to identify homes for these children. Yet many children still wait a very long time for a new family.-Urban Institute

In this country there's an enormous amount of kids in foster care of all races and all ages that desperately need a family. Some spend their entire lives going through the system waiting to be adopted. But because they're no longer little cute babies, they have little chance. If I ever adopt, and I have always thought about it, I would adopt an older kid for sure. I wish I could have adopted some of the students I taught when I was teaching in the inner city. Some of the families were just so disgusting. A lot of them just take in foster kids just for the money and then they treat them like animals. I can't even believe what is allowed to go on out there.

Sorry to go off topic.

[Jane]

Please, read the Old Testament. And don`t forget about Sodom and Gomorrah.

[pc31]

i'm against it!!!

[Jane]

Reading or Sex?

[Joost]

Please, read the Old Testament.

I will... As soon as someone can prove to me that it really is God's word...

[Bobber]

And don`t forget about Sodom and Gomorrah.

What's that all about then?