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Author Topic: The Beatles minus George  (Read 27953 times)

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Flaming Pie in the Sky

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2007, 06:45:47 PM »

You can thank DSL for that one too, it was a combined effort  :)
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Bobber

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2007, 06:46:23 PM »

Quote from: 297
Nah, that's not the case ... BlueMeanie is a good guy and I understand what and why he (and you too) said what he said ... but I'm still here giving my opinion and I wish he would be here too  :-/ ...

I'm in a good mood  :) ... I'm just trying debate with more people ... so I'm not going to be the only one here to answer and to re-think about my and others' opinions ... I'm just trying to learn something now and then, y'know ... that's still the main reason for me to be here ...

Alright. In that case: thanks for the debate. I'm off.
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raxo

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2007, 06:48:16 PM »

Quote from: 63
Alright. In that case: thanks for the debate. I'm off.
Nah, thanks to you  ;) ... I'll be here (well, you already knew that LOL!) ... have a good night, Bobber! :)

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mr kite

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2007, 07:02:35 PM »

Quote from: 297
I'm begining to think that George was the big mistake of the group, sorry :-/


I think you`ve got sunstroke RAX with that statment  :-/
Imagine NORWEGIAN WOOD without a sitar
No HERE COMES THE SUN  opening up side 2 to on the best 20 odd minutes put on a piece of ... plastic  
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raxo

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2007, 07:46:12 PM »

Quote from: 449
I think you`ve got sunstroke RAX with that statment  :-/
Imagine NORWEGIAN WOOD without a sitar
No HERE COMES THE SUN  opening up side 2 to on the best 20 odd minutes put on a piece of ... plastic
I had, mr kite, I had!  ;D
Good points you've got there!
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harihead

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2007, 08:29:24 PM »

Whew! This thread took off running while I was watching Larry King. Trying to catch up...

Quote from: Flaming Pie in the Sky
He had something he contributed that couldn't really be replaced.
Quote from: Bobber
And what was it? I'm not denying, I'm asking to get a proper description of it.
That's an excellent question, and I really can't put my finger on it. I have a group of college buddies who've stayed friends for (gulp) almost 30 years now. We still hang out fairly frequently, despite marriages, divorces--some within the group! One of our members died a few years ago, and the dynamics shifted. It's hard to explain. We still love each other, but there was a certain bonding aspect when M was around. He was just comfortable with everyone, and we all loved him. He wasn't the most talkative or the leader in any way, but added a kind of space for everyone to exist together.

I sort of think George (and Ringo) helped provide that for the Beatles. George said numerous times he didn't want to be the front man. He was the guy standing at the back looking after the sound of the group, putting his ear to the amp, checking levels, making sure he got the solo in where it was supposed to be. (I think this might have been what Flaming Pie in the Sky meant by "passive nature"). Also, if you watch him singing harmony in these live clips, he's always at the mic in time for his part. John and Paul sometimes miss their bits because they're distracted, rocking out or playing with the audience. That's fantastic, you need that in live performance, but you also want to make sure that your backing vocal is there when you expect it. George made sure to get it there. He was dependable.

I think that the others appreciated the fact that he actually relished this role. It made for a harmony within a group that was full of high achievers. That's also I think why George didn't compose in earnest for many years. He was happy doing what he was doing (until Beatlemania soured it for him, but he still liked his role within the band). He always stated he wanted to be a musician just playing as part of the band. That made him happiest.

When he did start to write songs, it shifted the dynamics of the group, because now George has changed the rules. Now he's wanting song time, and the others weren't sure they wanted to hand it over. This isn't anyone's fault; people grow and change. John and Paul were going like gangbusters, but even they had to have a rest. When George was writing a few songs, no problem. When he started writing lots of songs, about the White Album period, then I think the main two writers started getting a little defensive. Again, I don't think it's anyone's fault; just four guys expanding their limits (which artists must do to grow), but it was much less the cozy Moptop scenario where everyone had a defined role.

Quote from: Bobber
There is no proof that George had the amount of songs in 63/64 that John and Paul
There's proof to the opposite, in fact. George himself said he didn't start writing a lot of songs until the late sixties, when he developed "quite a backlog".

Quote from: Bobber
If he had come up with a really splendid song, I'm pretty sure George Martin would have picked it up. And I pretty sure too about the idea that George Martin could detect a good song, even if it was only played on a guitar.
Alas, this is where I feel George Martin let me down. The fact is, he didn't detect that any of George's songs were any good. George had to fight for every track at the end. I know that Yoko just said on Larry King Live that John suggested they make "Something" an A side. What I'd heard before was that it was part of Alan Klein's bait for getting George to sign him as manager. But either way, someone else had to intercede to give this song its A side status-- and it became the second-most covered Beatles song of all time behind "Yesterday".

GM didn't really change his opinion of George's songwriting ability until ATMP went to #1 against all expectations (triple album, dicey subject matter (religious), and George as the main composer being three strikes against it). He was very gracious about it after the fact, but I think that people get to listening for one thing (the hit formula, if you will, of John and/or Paul), and overlook something that could be just as good, only different. I think George as a solo composer is on par with John and Paul as solo composers. The Beatles as a band were stronger, in my opinion, than the members were apart-- but they were all extremely talented.

Thanks everyone for your kind remarks to my comments. This group really has me intrigued, and it's so great to be able to discuss my interest with a Beatles-loving audience.
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raxo

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2007, 08:58:48 PM »

Quote from: 551
[...]Thanks everyone for your kind remarks to my comments. This group really has me intrigued, and it's so great to be able to discuss my interest with a Beatles-loving audience.
Thanks to you for sharing your thoughts about them ... a-gain, you've explained yourshelf pretty well ... and a-gain, I agree with you  :) ...

Sir George was not paying as much at10tion to the group as he used to by the time George was writing more and more songs ... Sir George was on hollydays some weeks (September ... he came back in October to finish the album) during the The White Album sessions and Chris Thomas or even the group itself were the producers in many tracks ... then the Get Back project, when Sir George seemed to be just a special guest and Glyn Johns the real producer and finalley those two months (well, more or less) of sessions for the Abbey Road album  ::) ...

Sir George seemed to be focusing his mind in many other things in 1968-1969 ... but it was surely not his fault ... Geoff Emerick was there for the Abbey Road album too (and won a Grammy) so he could relax himshelf a bit, I think  :-/ ...
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harihead

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2007, 10:08:43 PM »

Thanks, Raxo, I didn't realize Sir George Martin was off and about so much at this time, but of course you're right. I think he did a lovely job on Abbey Road. I'm really glad the Beatles had him as their formative producer; I shudder to think what a heavy hand would have done to their rather untamed sound. :)
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Kevin

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #108 on: June 28, 2007, 08:39:03 AM »

Quote from: 297
I wonder why the others didn't fire him before!

Because he couldn't write songs?
I think P & G didn't want him to write songs - that was their territory and they were busy enough competing with each other. I don't think they would have cared if George had never written a song in his life and just stuck his playing. And George's guitar playing was good enough during the Beatlemania years when all he really needed to do was rock and roll licks.
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raxo

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #109 on: June 28, 2007, 03:47:39 PM »

Quote from: 185
Because he couldn't write songs?[...]
He seemed to begin to write quite early but stopped quite early too  :-/:
Quote from: 297
Trying to debate something: he's the co-writer of In Spite Of All The Danger (along with Paul) and Cry For A Shadow (along with John) ... two of the first attempts of recording an original song ... the others were That'll Be The Day and Ain't She Sweet (both sung by John) ... curious and a bit strange! ... oh, and he owned a guitar too!!!
Quote from: 185
[...]I think P & G didn't want him to write songs - that was their territory and they were busy enough competing with each other. I don't think they would have cared if George had never written a song in his life and just stuck his playing. And George's guitar playing was good enough during the Beatlemania years when all he really needed to do was rock and roll licks.
That could be probable ... he showed the others You Know What To Do when it seems that they were composing for the next album and it was ignored but they recorded Don't Bother Me some months earlier when they had to complete their second album (achording to John, with some rubbish and bad fillers ... *non exactly words*) ... the other two might have thought that George could be a problem in near future if he composed too ... but thankfully it was not so  :) ...
Quote from: 185
[...]And George's guitar playing was good enough during the Beatlemania years when all he really needed to do was rock and roll licks.
That's what I think too  :) ... his guitar playing and his own solos (I Want To Hold Your Hand guitar work is awesome!) were very good and he was an early reference too (The Byrds - Rickenbacker, for example) ...
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The Swine

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2007, 08:01:10 AM »

still i think that george is the beatle who's the easiest to replace
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Andy Smith

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2007, 02:07:57 PM »

Quote from: 748
still i think that george is the beatle who's the easiest to replace

with who? :o

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DarkSweetLady

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2007, 02:45:56 PM »

Quote from: 614

with who? :o

  

I second that! None of the beatles could be replaced...then they wouldn't be "the beatles"! >:(

George had more than just talent... like it or not he did!
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pc31

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2007, 03:14:39 PM »

Quote from: 748
still i think that george is the beatle who's the easiest to replace

i tend to agree with this statement...
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Flaming Pie in the Sky

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2007, 07:41:09 PM »

Quote from: 748
still i think that george is the beatle who's the easiest to replace

I can't imagine The Beatles without him. John, Paul, Ringo and George's replacement? Sorry, just can't do it.
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DarkSweetLady

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2007, 08:45:51 PM »

I can't imagine it either.... The Beatles without any of them is just about the most ridiculous thing I have heard!
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BlueMeanie

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #116 on: July 05, 2007, 08:29:02 AM »

Some of you seem quite obsessed with George, along the same lines as the 'Lennon is God' brigade. If you can forget your obsession for a moment and listen, and think about it, you'll see that (apart from live performance) The Beatles could easily have survived as a 3 piece. The only thing George had over Paul and John in the guitar stakes was his melodic qualities. But this only came to the fore on Abbey Road. If you listen to other takes of some songs you can hear George's complete lack of imagination when it came to putting together even a small solo.
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Kevin

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #117 on: July 05, 2007, 09:56:17 AM »

If I may say one thing - the fact that George wasn't a virtuoso musician may have worked in the bands favour. Much of their appeal was the boy-next-door factor - that any group of mates could get some guitars, write a few songs and become rock and roll stars. we know AHDN (film) inspired a whole generation of american bands.
Had George been some distant musician type (say like Clapton) then that might have been diminished.
The Beatles always looked like they were having an enormously good time - not hunched over their instruments watching every note. That too was hugeluy important to their appeal. This was hands-on you-can-do-this-too rock and roll. Mastery of instruments wasn't what The Beatles were about. They weren't Cream.
I'm not retreating on my stance that he wasn't that good. Some songs are calling for great guitar which doesn't happen. But then the Beatles appeal and success wasn't just about the music.
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The Swine

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #118 on: July 05, 2007, 10:32:42 AM »

Quote from: 483
Some of you seem quite obsessed with George, along the same lines as the 'Lennon is God' brigade. If you can forget your obsession for a moment and listen, and think about it, you'll see that (apart from live performance) The Beatles could easily have survived as a 3 piece. The only thing George had over Paul and John in the guitar stakes was his melodic qualities. But this only came to the fore on Abbey Road. If you listen to other takes of some songs you can hear George's complete lack of imagination when it came to putting together even a small solo.

well thank you mr meanie. i'm glad there's somebody here whose actually thinking.
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raxo

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Re: The Beatles minus George
« Reply #119 on: July 05, 2007, 01:01:10 PM »

Quote from: 748
well thank you mr meanie. i'm glad there's somebody here whose actually thinking.
Yes, BlueMeanie could be the only thinker here ... I don't envy him: that's a quite stressed job to be done by only one!  ;D
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