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Author Topic: Imagine and God  (Read 2150 times)

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Loco Mo

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Imagine and God
« on: July 24, 2021, 04:37:01 PM »

I think these two songs by John are very connected.  I've never thought about this thematic connection before.  It's John talking about letting go of beliefs and then talking about what he does not believe in.  The Dream is Over because all of those beliefs were fantasies.
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Loco Mo

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2021, 03:02:22 PM »

I don't think that God was an intentional follow-up to Imagine.  But, I imagine that John may have been aware of the link between the two.  Imagine was sort of a prep for God, IMO.  I've also noted that John said "I don't believe in Jesus."  He did not say "I don't believe in God."  So maybe he left that concept open-ended for fans to ponder.  But he did say that God is a concept.  How do you interpret that statement?

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Moogmodule

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2021, 02:20:53 AM »

Was imagine written before God? It was released after but might have been started prior to Plastic Ono Band.

Regardless, it’s hard to assess John’s beliefs in some sort of coherent way as I don’t think he was ever consistent or rigorous in how he approached these issues. He was very much an in the moment thinker and changed his mind on things a lot. These songs could be connected but attempting to find a thread of consistency is pretty challenging.

In God he said “God is a concept against which we measure our pain” . That’s been taken to mean that we tend to call out for God when we’re in pain or despair. If that’s what he meant it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of the concept. Elsewhere  though he’s talked about how he was very religious, then mocked George’s My Sweet Lord in a cynical, unbelieving way, although part of that was probably professional jealousy at George’s success. He’s just a very hard guy to pin down belief-wise.
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Loco Mo

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2021, 07:05:49 PM »

Thank you, Moogmodule.  I was in a time warp when I posted this.  I looked it up and learned that John wrote "Imagine" during the Let it Be sessions.  The Let it Be recordings apparently spanned the period from February 1968 through April 1970 and were released on 5/8/1970.

Imagine (album-Imagine) was released on 9/9/1971.  It was released as a single on 10/11/71.
God (album-John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band) was released on 12/11/1970.  This was not released as a single.  It is reported that John wrote this song during the summer of 1970 while he was undergoing primal scream therapy.

I think my perspective on the link between the two songs is still valid.  I think Imagine stood out for me over God.  But, in the latter part of my life span, I have appreciated God much more.

Well, I hope I've got the above dates right.  Thanks again for the correction, Moogmodule.
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Moogmodule

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2021, 09:34:11 PM »

That’s right about Imagine at least being begun during Let it Be.  It was completed in early 1971, including finishing the lyrics. So it probably spanned God rather than being done fully before or after.

I don’t disagree at all that there is some link between the songs. They were, after all, both written by the same person around the same time. My comment was only whether there’s some consistent philosophy or view behind them that can be gleaned or John just staying whatever is on his mind and his views at that instant. Arguments could be made both ways depending on how you interpret his lyrics. In Imagine for instance he is saying “imagjne” no heaven and no hell, just sky above us. Think of how you would act if that what was the case, I don’t think he’s saying he necessarily believes it is the case. While “God” is a creed of sorts saying this is what I do and don’t believe in.

But there’s a lot of analysis that could be done on both songs. It is, as usual, an interesting question you pose Loco.
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Loco Mo

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2021, 09:35:39 PM »

Moogmodule:  I think your comment about John Lennon being hard to pin down belief-wise is very interesting.

If you tried to get a yes or no answer out of him, you'd probably have been unsuccessful.

I've known people in my life who refused to state their position on any given subject if pressed to do so.  I think they strive to be neutral or silent because they don't want to be quoted or held to a particular POV.  Or they don't want to risk being disagreed with.  Or they just want to avoid arguments.  Some people are not very articulate when it comes to self-defense.  If challenged, they contract brain freeze and are rendered mute thereby. 

Oh well, that's okay.  We have a pretty good sense of John as a cynical philosopher, I think, or maybe of a guy who was simply trying to discover his true identity throughout his lifetime.  He may not have really known what he actually believed in, if anything.
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Loco Mo

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2021, 09:55:02 PM »

Moogmodule:  While I'm thinking of it, I want to add that the proximal time frame in which God and Imagine occurred seems to support my thesis that they are thematically and ideologically linked.

I can't support my next thesis but it is this and it is purely speculative:  I think John's primary goal in writing "God" was that he could in a somewhat unexpected and unassuming way drop his personal bombshell of "I don't believe in Beatles" as the last proclamation in his litany of non-beliefs.  I think that was the end goal of the song.  Without that statement, perhaps he'd not have penned "God" at all.
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blmeanie

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Re: Imagine and God
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2021, 11:26:57 PM »

I don't view Imagine as a statement on religion at all.  More of a statement on peace, love, can't we all get along.

I may be wrong, just my take.
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