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[Jane]

And people have been saying religion or God is dying for a long time. Could be. But doubt it very much. Maybe organized religion. Education has nothing to do with it though. Maybe a bit, but a lot of it is this lack of humility and arrogance that people seem to have a lot more of these days.
And as you know, the world is HUGE and there are still many, many, many countries that are deeply religious.
And God doesn't explain the mysteries of the world.
The belief in the existence of "God" is becoming something different. Something not so cut and dry. Most people realize he's not a being, but a higher power. Something unexplainable, but not some creature that wears white robes and points his finger to get his way. This is more due to spiritual enlightenment than education. A lot of so called educated people speak a lot of crap too.

I agree with these, Sondra.

[Hello Goodbye]

I love going on about this to my mom cuz it drives her crazy. That's called payback.

For all the homemade dresses?  

OK, this is an interesting topic.  My parochial school education exposed me to the Bible and the belief in God.  My natural inquisitiveness led me to question what I learned and look for proof.  Dave spoke of an experience he had with a patient on the ward.  I've had a similar experience.  My uncle was terminally ill and our family was gathered around his hospital bed.  He gazed beyond us and said "There's Papa standing in the doorway."  He was referring to my grandfather who passed away two years before.  We turned around to look.  Of course, no one was there.  When we turned back to him, he had slipped into a coma.  He passed away several hours later.  Both my grandfather and my uncle were very religious.

As a doctor, I've seen other similar episodes with patients.  Kevin's explanation of what the old man saw might indeed be what it was all about.  But I believe there is an order to creation dictated by a force we don't understand fully, as Jane remarked.  I'm thankful for the skills I've learned in my profession but I know full well that I merely just guide and assist the human body, a most wonderful and intricate creation, in its healing.

[DaveRam]

^^^^^ I'm a very very liberal Christain i don't accept there should be any discrimination in any faith , whats written by man in the Bible on this subject is wrong and should be removed from the text .
 That's my big bugbear with gods so called word.
Jesus was a cool guy , he interests me and i tend to focus on him .
But i ignore the rest of the Bible's  fanciful stories , i have my own brain and whilst it's working i trust my own judgement .
Think the idea of angels and people from the afterlife is as hard to prove as creation , some mysteries are best left unsolved .
What i do know is science is a wonderful thing if used for the right reason , it moves forward while the Bible lives to much in the past for me , it's more about control which is way religion turns many people off ?

[Hello Goodbye]

Kevin, you can`t demand evidence of something that a human can`t understand. Our argument also proves it. God is beyond human mind, the proofs of his existence are also beyond our understanding. It is all much more complicated than "this is a supernatural being and this is a vampire". We can`t even say whether God is a supernatural being or idea or word. But what was first? Think about it. And many people did, and they all finally came to the conclusion that it was WORD not material substance. What was before everything? Idea or Materia? How can material substance be first, what did it come from? From Idea.
And God is not superstition, he is against superstition. God is belief, faith.
Another thing. The Bible came to ancients when they were rather primitive people. Who could have written such wise, unsurpassable ideas, so much different from everything believed and practised at that time? Not any contemporary.
And another thing. The proof of God`s existence is everywhere. Just look around, at this grass, this sky, this flowers, birds and animals. And certainly people. It is all so rational, so well-thought-out and worked-out.
Answer the question: What is a law of nature?

This is a very thoughtful and perceptive post, Jane.  Each time I'm in the operating room I reflect upon just "how well-thought-out" it all is.

[Kevin]

Kevin, you can`t demand evidence of something that a human can`t understand..... The proof of God`s existence is everywhere. Just look around, at this grass, this sky, this flowers, birds and animals. And certainly people. It is all so rational, so well-thought-out and worked-out.
Answer the question: What is a law of nature?

Rational, well thought out and worked out? Right now about 18 million africans are suffering slow painful blindness as the parasite Onchocerciasis eats through their eyes. Is this part of your God's rational plan?
Evolution via natural selection is a measurable, observable scientific fact. There's your "law" if you need one. Even the churchs' now accept it as fact and have given up fighting it. That's why they've invented creationism to accomodate to what even them is blindingly obvious. Life doesn't need god to be explained.
And I most certainly can "demand evidence of something I don't understand." That sort of thinking is medieval. It is precisely because mankind seeks that evidence that we no longer cower from thundergods or witches.

[Kevin]

Another thing. The Bible came to ancients when they were rather primitive people. Who could have written such wise, unsurpassable ideas, so much different from everything believed and practised at that time? Not any contemporary.

Sorry but no. Even the most optimistic religious sites date parts of the Old Testament to the 12th century BC. These "ancient primitives" had high civilisation, literacy, accountancy, bureaurocracy, architecture, taxation, laws, armies and empires.

But that aside, the bible is wise and unsurpassable? Genesis alone is littered with talking snakes, magic trees, plants before the sun (umm photosynthesis anyone) and woman made from ribs. He makes the earth first ( a whole day) but knocks out the stars (trillions of suns and their accompanying planets) as an afterthought on the 4th day. We know this to be false (radiometrics). Oh and it completely omits billions of years (dinosaurs, neandertals etc). Full of absurdities and glaring omissions more likely.

All cultures have creation myths. The illiterate Maori believed NZ had been fished out of the sea by a bloke in a canoe. Now we know that's silly. But oooh, if you say it's not supposed to be taken literally (that old religious standby), and NZ did rise out of the ocean (volcanoes, earthquakes etc) then goodness how wise and unsurpassable were they?
Chinese creation myth (which predates the bible) has mankind formed from god's parasites. We know we evolved from simple single cell organisms. Again, if you don't take that literally but.....
Or the Hindu creation myth (contempory with the old testament): The earth was bare. Brahma set to work. He created grass, flowers, trees and plants of all kinds. To these he gave feeling. Next he created the animals and the insects to live on the land. He made birds to fly in the air and many fish to swim in the sea. To all these creatures, he gave the senses of touch and smell. He gave them power to see, hear and move.
The Bible story doesn't seem so unique after all.

Just for a finisher, here's the bible's (and I take it by that you mean God's) wise and unsurpassable cure for leprosy. try it some time. Sounds like folklore and superstition to me:
Lectivus 14:
14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean , and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:  
14:5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:  
14:6 As for the living bird, he shall take it , and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:  
14:7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

[Jane]

1. - Rational, well thought out and worked out? Right now about 18 million africans are suffering slow painful blindness as the parasite Onchocerciasis eats through their eyes. Is this part of your God's rational plan?
2 - Evolution via natural selection is a measurable, observable scientific fact. There's your "law" if you need one. Even the churchs' now accept it as fact and have given up fighting it. That's why they've invented creationism to accomodate to what even them is blindingly obvious. Life doesn't need god to be explained.
3 - And I most certainly can "demand evidence of something I don't understand." That sort of thinking is medieval. It is precisely because mankind seeks that evidence that we no longer cower from thundergods or witches.

1. What do you mean by YOUR God`s rational plan? Kevin, God is OURS. We all live in one and the same world.
2. You are mixing up two approaches: naturalistic approach and theological. Unfortunately, naturalistic approach can`t explain spiritual and structural or systematic things. And they do exist. Naturalistic approach explains very well materialistic things. And why does evolution take place? Why does it occur? Evolution is observable - ok - but why does it progress and why in this very direction? You say it`s a law. Who created this law? Nature? And what is this powerful nature that creates laws? This powerful nature, idea, reason may be called God. Maybe IT was presented to ancients as SuperBeing for them to understand IT better. Imagine they had been told it was some universal reason or idea that was behind all things. Clear to them? No, very vague. But if you prefer to call it in this way(reason) or call it a law of nature, then all the same you are accepting God. Also - from where did evolution start? what was first? why are people created in this very exteremely clever and at the same time vulnerable way? I have always wondered at human skin, there is no analogue to it in nature, it is something magical! (But this is just a thought).
3. Well, you can demand evidence. But the thing is whether you will be able to understand it and to analyze it properly. Humans can`t so far. I think that evidence is everywhere. And forget about witches, who mentions them? they are for children, we should think deeper...

[Jane]

Sorry but no. Even the most optimistic religious sites date parts of the Old Testament to the 12th century BC. These "ancient primitives" had high civilisation, literacy, accountancy, bureaurocracy, architecture, taxation, laws, armies and empires.
But that aside, the bible is wise and unsurpassable? Genesis alone is littered with talking snakes, magic trees, plants before the sun (umm photosynthesis anyone) and woman made from ribs. He makes the earth first ( a whole day) but knocks out the stars (trillions of suns and their accompanying planets) as an afterthought on the 4th day. We know this to be false (radiometrics). Oh and it completely omits billions of years (dinosaurs, neandertals etc). Full of absurdities and glaring omissions more likely.

These ancient primitives may have had philosophy and architecture but were at a very low stage of development concerning morals and spirituality. They demanded and watched executions, they adored bloody violent spectacles, where a person was killed, they gave their wives to strangers as a sign of hospitality, the brother inherited his dead brother`s wife and so on. Such things were taken as normal. And if we take not just single individuals like great philosophers but common people of those times, they were practically all illiterate and dump. That was why the Bible explained the things to those people in such a way. Even now a lot of people wouldn`t understand complicated reasoning...
And one day of creation can mean 1000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years. Don`t take it literally.   

[Jane]

This is a very thoughtful and perceptive post, Jane.  Each time I'm in the operating room I reflect upon just "how well-thought-out" it all is.

Thank you very much, Hello Goodbye! You know, I am not a fanatic, by no means! I am thinking and trying to understand. Though I understand that it is impossible to understand (such a calambur) it all, still we are humans and we have intellect.
Our world is beautiful and a human being is the peak of our world, of all creation. 

[Hello Goodbye]

And one day of creation can mean 1000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years. Don`t take it literally.  

Yes, Jane.  Even in Biblical times there were rival factions, those who took the Scriptures literally and those who followed a figurative interpretation.  So, the debate in this thread is an ancient one.

You know, I am not a fanatic, by no means!

I know you're not a fanatic, Jane.  Indeed your feelings on the matter are quite sensible.  Thoughtful and sensitive individuals share such religious beliefs which attempt to answer some very profound questions.

My early academic studies which prepared me for my profession included inorganic and organic chemistry, biology, biochemistry, comparative anatomy and physics.  These studies formed the foundation of my medical and surgical studies later on.  I treated all these studies like one long novel.  The story has not ended as there are always advances made in research and technology.  I marvel at all this!

Perhaps the most exciting discovery of the Twentieth Century was the structure of DNA by Drs Watson and Crick...The Double Helix.  Dr. Crick exclaimed: "We've found the meaning of life!"  What an amazing structure DNA is with its precise base-pairing of nucleotides.  So even on a molecular and atomic level, there is an order to things.  Did this all happen by accident?

[Sondra]

1. What do you mean by YOUR God`s rational plan?

Atheists like to use that term. It's part of the condescending attitude that I just can't get with. No matter what I believe.

Sorry Kevin!

[Kevin]

Hello everybody. Again, how good to be able to talk about this without it getting all nasty. Few more things then I'll stop for awhile (but please don't take my silence as surrender.    )

Jane - you changed your arguement from the bible being full of unsurpassable wisdom and way ahead of it's time to being a primer for illiterate idiots. That's bit of a jump.
And I say "your god" because it's not mine. Don't mean to be arrogant (though I understand how it could be taken that way.) I completely refute the supernatural.
Human skin is really no different from most mammal skin. Common ancestors you see.
And the "why" question only has creedence if you think that life must have some point in the first place. which aethiests don't.

And HG - evolution isn't an "accident." That's really old fashioned terminology, like "missing link." Populations produce variations - fact. Variations that provide an advantage outproduce those that don't - fact. No chance, accident or randomness required. DNA evolved in exactly this same way. And do you really find that harder to accept than it being the work of some supernatural being.

[Jane]

Hello everybody. Again, how good to be able to talk about this without it getting all nasty. Few more things then I'll stop for awhile (but please don't take my silence as surrender.    )

We will definitely do it! If you stop...

[Jane]

Jane - you changed your arguement from the bible being full of unsurpassable wisdom and way ahead of it's time to being a primer for illiterate idiots. That's bit of a jump.

Absolutely not! Again you are mixing things up. You are jumping from one line of reasoning to another. From the content to the form. The Bible is full of wisdom - content. But the way of the presentation of this wisdom - form - is plain so that ancient people, who were mostly illiterate and dumb, could understand it. No contradiction in my post! You have to accept it. 

[Jane]

And I say "your god" because it's not mine. Don't mean to be arrogant (though I understand how it could be taken that way.) I completely refute the supernatural.
Human skin is really no different from most mammal skin. Common ancestors you see.
And the "why" question only has creedence if you think that life must have some point in the first place. which aethiests don't.

One can`t completely refute such things.       Because such things require thinking and at least doubting. By absolutely refuting it you accept that you refuse to think. You just stubbornly refute. Though nobody knows for sure the answer. And you can`t know it. As one philosopher said, I doubt therefore I exist...
The thing is, Kevin that I don`t think there are some die hard religious people here, we all think and reason and do not refute the ideas at once. We are flexible, I dare say we, cause judging by the posts, people choose not to have one single answer to this question.
And how was this common skin created?
And, yes, a question to you: how many times have you been to church service? Roughly.

[Kevin]

One can`t completely refute such things.      Because such things require thinking and at least doubting. By absolutely refuting it you accept that you refuse to think..
And how was this common skin created?
And, yes, a question to you: how many times have you been to church service? Roughly.

Trust me, I've thought about this more than is healthy. I refute the supernatural because not one iota of observable measurable evidence exists.
Skin was "created" (I hate that word) via evolution. I'm not a bioligist, but the path from cell walls to simple membrane to skin seems logical to me. I'm sorry, but if you don't accept evolution then you're refuting the findings of the entire scientific community. Is that the case?
Been to a few christmas masses for a good old singalong. Went to sunday school a bit as a child. That's it. Oh and attended a mass in Greece as an interested tourist. Please don't say this disqualifies me from commenting on the existance of god. I've never been to university either, but I can still read scientists' findings.

[Kevin]

Sorry Jane, but one last thing.
We don't need god to expain the universe or life. We have scientific answers that, (at the risk of being repitive) provides observable measurable evidence. To ignore it is to ignore the evidence.
It really is that simple.

[Hello Goodbye]

And HG - evolution isn't an "accident." That's really old fashioned terminology, like "missing link." Populations produce variations - fact. Variations that provide an advantage outproduce those that don't - fact. No chance, accident or randomness required. DNA evolved in exactly this same way. And do you really find that harder to accept than it being the work of some supernatural being.

Kevin, if you take the time to read what I wrote, you'll see that I did not say that evolution and DNA was an accident.  This is what I said:

"So even on a molecular and atomic level, there is an order to things.  Did this all happen by accident?"

I was specifically referring to nucleotide morphology and binding producing the DNA double helix.  That's biochemistry and there's nothing supernatural about it.  My question "Did this all happen by accident?" was rhetorical.

While Drs Watson and Crick were working on the structure of DNA, Drs Miller and Urey, in 1953, described how they were able to create cell precursors called "coacervates" by passing an electric current through a mixture of water, methane, ammonia and hydrogen sulfide.  They recreated the "primordial soup" existent on this planet when it cooled down after formation.  The electric current represented lightning storms.  Miller and Urey thus recapitulated "Creation."

I certainly believe in Darwin's theory of evolution, selection and survival of the fittest.  But there is an order to things on the atomic and molecular level of creation of life which remains difficult to explain and is more than just coincidence or accident.  The precise differential lengths of the cytosine-guanine and adenine-thymine bonds in the DNA model produce the double helix and enable "unzipping" for RNA production and protein synthesis.  It's amazing, really, on the molecular level, but this is dictated by laws of physics and and biochemistry.  We know how these laws work.  We do not know who set these laws.

[Hello Goodbye]

Again, how good to be able to talk about this without it getting all nasty.

Yes, Kevin, being nasty doesn't add credibility to one's arguments.

[DaveRam]

John and Paul are great examples of evolution and natural selection their "Double Helix" as guitar strings attached to it