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[Jane]

2. Kevin, the more we learn, the more we understand that we know nothing. We do not need God to explain the mysteries of the world, we need science to do it, which it does. God is for something else. Education doesn`t kill him, education only opens the veil a bit. What we knew centuries ago about our world hasn`t changed at all. What concerns the world as it is we are at the same level of knowledge, we only have learned about some laws and have developed the technology, but we haven`t answered a single question about the creation of the universe or people.

There is science and there is theology. They are different things.
There are laws of society and there are laws of nature. Laws of society were created by people, laws of nature were created by something or somebody...what is behind them?
 

[Jane]

Evolution is observable - ok - but why does it progress and why in this very direction? You say it`s a law. Who created this law? Nature? And what is this powerful nature that creates laws? This powerful nature, idea, reason may be called God... But if you prefer to call it in this way(reason) or call it a law of nature, then all the same you are accepting God.

Please, comment on that. If you accept it is a law of nature, you accept some kind of POWER, that controls nature. What is this power? All the same it is God.

[Jane]

Skin was "created" (I hate that word) via evolution. I'm not a bioligist, but the path from cell walls to simple membrane to skin seems logical to me. I'm sorry, but if you don't accept evolution then you're refuting the findings of the entire scientific community. Is that the case?

Who told you I don`t accept evolution? I do accept it. Certainly the world evolved. What I don`t accept is that Man evolved from apes. Man is not animal, and has never been. Man has different brain and no matter how hard that prehistorical ape tried to use a stick and apply some kind of labour (as atheists teach us) it won`t help. Labour won`t make a human out of an animal. And mind that the entire scientific community nevertheless believe in God. That is the paradox. Science doesn`t refute religious ideas, science elevates understanding of them to a new level.
What I am trying to tell you is that one shouldn`t be a die-hard atheist. If it was all that simple humanity would have solved the puzzle long ago, but somehow the argument continues. The best brains don`t know the answer for sure.

[Jane]

Been to a few christmas masses for a good old singalong. Went to sunday school a bit as a child. That's it. Oh and attended a mass in Greece as an interested tourist. Please don't say this disqualifies me from commenting on the existance of god. I've never been to university either, but I can still read scientists' findings.

Kevin! It`s vice versa!!!!!!! To me you are a religious person! It doesn`t disqualify you, by no means.
Now, wonder what my answer to the same question about attending church service would be! Can you guess?

[Hello Goodbye]

What I don`t accept is that Man evolved from apes.

Well, actually we did evolve from apes.  Humans are one of four genera of Great Apes (Hominidae).  The other three are chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.  They say that we, as humans, speciated from from other Great Apes about 7 million years ago and evolved into our current form, Homo sapiens, about 150,000 years ago.

Man is not animal, and has never been. Man has different brain and no matter how hard that prehistorical ape tried to use a stick and apply some kind of labour (as atheists teach us) it won`t help.

Semantics here... Man is the "Human Animal."  The human brain is physically similar to the other Great Apes.  Our early human ancestors were just as clumsy as other apes.  They differed in chromosome content.

If it was all that simple humanity would have solved the puzzle long ago, but somehow the argument continues.

I agree with you there, Jane!

[Sondra]

I don't take issue with what anyone believes, it's how they choose to treat others based on these beliefs. Trying to explain why and how and whatever is useless. We should just respect that there are things we will never understand. And that includes why people FEEL a certain way about something regardless of the "proof."

But I love reading everyone's posts. You guys are very deep and I love that.

[Mairi]

I never understood the concept of judging someone's intelligence based on their religious beliefs. Spirituality transcends intelligence. It's just... it just is.

[Hello Goodbye]

But I love reading everyone's posts. You guys are very deep and I love that.

See what we can do if we try?   

[Sondra]

I love that movie!

[Sondra]

I never understood the concept of judging someone's intelligence based on their religious beliefs.

It's a cop out.

[Kevin]

Wooh. When I said "I couldn't understand how rational intelligent people could believe in a god" I wasn't for a moment doubting their rationality or intelligence. I know there are university professors and doctors and many minds far greater than mine that believe in god. And Hitler was a Darwinist who didn't. I just don't understand how you can make that leap of logic. And as much as I will apologise for any offence incurred I can't change that opinion. I'm sure the workings of my brain must be as equally baffling to you. I watch the Archbishop of Canterbury on Tv and think "but you're a smart man..." I don't doubt your rationality or intelligence, just how that allows you to reach the conclusions you do.* I hope you see the difference. On reflection that is arrogant, but I can't pretend I don't feel that way. Apologies.
(*though I can come up with a perfectly lological evolutionary reason why you do so   )

And HG - I know you're knowledge on the subject must be vast. But I get quite passionate about defending evolution. And I'm always up against that charge that to believe in it means you believe life is random. So words like "accident" set me off. And when I argue these things I do try and keep short and to the poiint. Sorry if this comes off as curtness or disrespect.

And Jane - the evolutionary link between a common ancestor of apes (and all other primates) and humans is proven in the genetic, anatomical, fossil and geological records.   I go back to my first point - you're obviously a very smart lady, but how can you refuse to believe in something for which there is irrefutable evidence but be able to believe in something so ardently for which there is none? Sorry, but it baffles me. It's almost as if you're determined to see the world as you want it, regardless of what reality (ie evidence) tells us. But I fully accept that it may be a far better (and happier) way to live a life instead of a lifetime thinking your sole reason for existance is to propagate and die. If I believe in evolution than I accept that it is the cause of religious belief and therefore religion has been advantagous (sp) to us.I've never said religion is a bad thing, it's just the god bit that gets me.

[Kevin]

Have to get this off my chest - I'm aware I'm on the verge of preaching here.
My original point was that the creation of life baffles me. I have seen the evidence for, and while I don't presume to understand it all, and accept the universe we live in today was made by the Big Bang.
It's the bit before I can't get my head around. For a long time I thought I had two choices: religion's that god did it or sciences that everything came from nothing. Both to me seem so highly unlikely as to be impossible.
I'm also p*ssed that science is resorting (as HG said it continues to find things like molecular behaviour that it can't explain) to the thing I've always critisised religion for - passing off unsubstantiated theory as fact. But to science's credit it always covering itself with "maybe's" and "possiblies."
So the Lord knows I've read, and if I had to put my money on something it would be that the universe has always been here, contracting and expanding, bang after big bang. But can I prove it? No. That's a b****. Amen.

[DaveRam]

What i find bonkers about creationism is they believe the earth is only 10.000 years old and that some of the Bible characters are 2,000 year old people .
This kind of nonsense is brainwashing of a serious kind , might as well just have a congregation of Zombies .
I think a lot of this stuff is more to do with the rise of Islam , christianity is a passive religion it likes to sound tuff so it kicks evolutinists and queers .
It's more to do with apeing radical Islam and most christian's fall for it ? rather than embracing Jesus and keeping true to him ?

[DaveRam]

I think when christianity is under pressure and it is under pressure from the rise of Islam , it kind of does'nt think in a logical way and it's followers fall back into believing the ridiculous , it's the way the church as always controlled it's dumb flock , put fear in there minds ?
Islam on the other hand embraces scientific achivement .
Christians should stop reacting like this , evolution is a well thought out theory with evidence to back it up .
The logical thing to do is have an open mind .
And read only what Jesus is said to have said , and bin the rest of the Bible only the gospels are worth reading ?

[Jane]

Well, actually we did evolve from apes.  Humans are one of four genera of Great Apes (Hominidae).  The other three are chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.  They say that we, as humans, speciated from from other Great Apes about 7 million years ago and evolved into our current form, Homo sapiens, about 150,000 years ago.

Hello Goodbye, you are killing me with this ape thing!    I can accept the theory that humans evolved from humans who were more primitive, looked differently, even had more hair on the body, but were humans. Were they apes? Even human apes? A human has will, has emotions and feelings, which do not evolve. You either have emotions or not. They are inherent only in humans and never in animals or any kind of primitive humans, who according to Darwin were practically animals. Could there have been such a great discrepancy between the apes` body and their emotions? Then they would have felt so terribly awful having such an appearance! Here, I am joking, of course.
HG, please, tell me, if such things like emotions, such psychological and psychiatric things evolve, come to an absolutely new level? I think they are related only to humans.

[Jane]

And Jane - how can you refuse to believe in something for which there is irrefutable evidence but be able to believe in something so ardently for which there is none? Sorry, but it baffles me. It's almost as if you're determined to see the world as you want it, regardless of what reality (ie evidence) tells us.

Kevin, you are a bit wrong here. As you were a bit wrong understanding Hello Goodbye. You ascribe certain things to us which we have never mentioned. It happens because you stick to your own train of thought. And immediately everybody who doesn`t have the same ideas as you do, falls under the category of the opposite number, I mean belongs to the opposite camp with all the following conclusions. It`s not like that. You think of Atheists (no God), and Believers (definitely God), while we may be sceptics, who refrain from giving the final judgement. While you do. So, your word ardently is the wrong word. BTW true believers do not write here as you can see, they prefer to keep aside, they are more modest than atheists.
Did I say I believed in something? What I have always said is that one should think and doubt, and that one can`t be 100% sure of one`s rightness in such things.

[Jane]

So the Lord knows I've read, and if I had to put my money on something it would be that the universe has always been here, contracting and expanding, bang after big bang. But can I prove it? No. That's a b****. Amen.

Kevin, as follows from this post, you should join the camp of sceptics-thinkers-doubters, but not atheists. The Big Bang theory is not much different from any religion. Nobody can prove it, so you just have to believe in it. Why not doubt it?

[Kevin]

No, I am an aethist. Not a skeptic. I have no doubts about the existance of god. Just because I don't the answer to something (what was there before the Bing Bang)        doesn't mean I'll fill in the gaps with god.

I will stop for awhile now. This must be annoying to others I haven't said anything about the beatles for ages.

[Jane]

Thanks for the conversation!

[Hello Goodbye]

Hello Goodbye, you are killing me with this ape thing!    I can accept the theory that humans evolved from humans who were more primitive, looked differently, even had more hair on the body, but were humans. Were they apes? Even human apes? A human has will, has emotions and feelings, which do not evolve. You either have emotions or not. They are inherent only in humans and never in animals or any kind of primitive humans, who according to Darwin were practically animals. Could there have been such a great discrepancy between the apes` body and their emotions? Then they would have felt so terribly awful having such an appearance! Here, I am joking, of course.
HG, please, tell me, if such things like emotions, such psychological and psychiatric things evolve, come to an absolutely new level? I think they are related only to humans.

Jane, that's the way humans are classified, as one of four genera of "Great Apes."  I think you'll find the Latin more appealing:  Hominidae





I don't feel insulted by this classification.  Homo sapiens have a long ancestral lineage including those hairy creatures you mentioned.  That's how we evolved.  We're different because our genus' chromosomes are different than the other genera.

As far thought and emotions, go to a zoo and observe the gorillas and chimps.  It's obvious that they think and have emotions.  So do other animals.  You should see what happens with horses when a foal is weaned from her dam (mother).  It's heartrending!

We just happen to be the most intelligent life form on this planet, which unfortunately doesn't make us the smartest.  In the movie Going My Way, Bing Crosby sings "Swinging On A Star" to some children who were complaining about having to go to school.  The lyrics are worth posting here:

Would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a mule?

A mule is an animal with long funny ears
Kicks up at anything he hears
His back is brawny and his brain is weak
He's just plain stupid with a stubborn streak
And by the way, if you hate to go to school
You may grow up to be a mule

Or would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a pig?

A pig is an animal with dirt on his face
His shoes are a terrible disgrace
He ain't got no manners when he eats his food
He's fat and lazy and extremely rude
But if you don't care a feather or a fig
You may grow up to be a pig

Or would you like to swing on a star
Carry moonbeams home in a jar
And be better off than you are
Or would you rather be a fish?

A fish won't do anything, but swim in a brook
He can't write his name or read a book
And to fool the people is his only thought
And though he's slippery, he still gets caught
But then if that sort of life is what you wish
You may grow up to be a fish

And all the monkeys aren't in the zoo
Every day you meet quite a few
So you see it's all up to you
You can be better than you are
You could be swingin' on a star


That last verse is a killer! 

Bing Crosby "Swinging on a Star"