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Author Topic: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis  (Read 1356 times)

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Normandie

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The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« on: November 30, 2022, 03:11:12 AM »

This popped up in my news feed today, and I found it quite interesting, although I found the author's "hook" (did John deliberately sabotage the song?)—while understandable in that he's probably trying to lure in viewers—off putting.

I had no idea that fans have had a problem with the bass line in this song. Not being a musician, I'd never noticed anything amiss. I wish I did know more of the technicalities of music and recording; I'm sure it would enhance my listening. I'd love to take a music course someday.

I was wondering, though: If John's bass on this song was so bad (according to the guy in the video), then why did Paul not go back and overdub it himself?

https://youtu.be/zLGnVJa8Fu8

« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 03:22:26 AM by Normandie »
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2022, 04:31:17 AM »

Kathy, you'll hear John's 6-string bass better on the "naked" version...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfVAJNqWw84" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfVAJNqWw84</a>




Here's the LP version, with Phil Spetor's orchestration, for comparison...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR4HjTH_fTM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR4HjTH_fTM</a>


John's bass errors weren't very noticeable and so no big fuss was made over it...until the naked version came along.
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2022, 04:40:15 AM »

I suppose now that Luke feller will make a big fuss over the couple of clinkers Paul hit on the piano in this live performance...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFNaOm6U5n8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFNaOm6U5n8</a>
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Moogmodule

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2023, 03:41:43 AM »

This popped up in my news feed today, and I found it quite interesting, although I found the author's "hook" (did John deliberately sabotage the song?)—while understandable in that he's probably trying to lure in viewers—off putting.

I had no idea that fans have had a problem with the bass line in this song. Not being a musician, I'd never noticed anything amiss. I wish I did know more of the technicalities of music and recording; I'm sure it would enhance my listening. I'd love to take a music course someday.

I was wondering, though: If John's bass on this song was so bad (according to the guy in the video), then why did Paul not go back and overdub it himself?

https://youtu.be/zLGnVJa8Fu8


I’ve seen it referenced in several books about the poor bass line. And some have proposed it was deliberate sabotage. That seems a bit of a stretch. Probably more like that John didn’t like playing bass and wasn’t particularly great at it. I suppose it was buried beneath the orchestration so no need to redo. If, as Paul requested, that the orchestration be lowered and original instruments brought up, it might have highlighted deficiencies and required an overdub.
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nimrod

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2023, 12:57:37 PM »

John was just a poor Bass player.
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Kevin

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2023, 09:19:19 PM »

But a very good rhythm guitarist.
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Moogmodule

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2023, 11:55:23 PM »

But a very good rhythm guitarist.

He was indeed. And I think people underestimate the difference in playing bass to playing guitar. Sure a guitar player will be able to find the notes to plod along with a basic track  but getting the attack and timing right takes practice. I doubt John ever practiced bass.
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2023, 02:25:40 AM »

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb8YNfr9fFM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb8YNfr9fFM</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO_J6MO6G4g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO_J6MO6G4g</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BdNrReDhGs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BdNrReDhGs</a>
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2023, 02:31:55 AM »

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYT9NhU_ds" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpYT9NhU_ds</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsNgLiPyuCY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsNgLiPyuCY</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Dpt7TI9q0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Dpt7TI9q0</a>
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blmeanie

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2023, 11:52:14 AM »

Mike Pachelli is one of those guys on youtube I could watch forever.  His knowledge, ability and his ENTHUSIASM for the Beatles is incredible.
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2023, 12:35:41 AM »

Me too, blmeanie.  He's fantastic!  I've learned much from him.

Prior to Mike Pachelli's instructional videos, I relied on Rob Taylor's Beatles To A Tee DVD's to play exact John, George and Paul's guitar parts.

Here's Rob's instructional video for Eight Days A Week...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ODuWYzu2l0" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ODuWYzu2l0</a>



Rob put out a four-volume set of DVD's  in the early 2000s.  Here's Volume 1 in its entirety...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhhu2GvSKDU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhhu2GvSKDU</a>


The DVD set features precise didactic instruction using guitar models The Beatles used in their recordings.
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2023, 06:59:37 AM »

Perhaps the most complex of Rob Taylor's lessons is for Till There Was You...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy3isMIQ7Q" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMy3isMIQ7Q</a>


John and George to a tee!




<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E4qSpPBfo8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E4qSpPBfo8</a>
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blmeanie

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2023, 10:46:03 AM »

the inner geek that Mike P has when describing how John changes a pattern in his playing, how he says all players could learn from that , stuff like that is so awesome to hear someone say.  It just goes to show how they approached their music, no formula, just doing stuff that felt right to them in the moment.

Another thing, as a non musician, hearing him and others isolate John's parts or whatever a video is doing, really opens my eyes to the components that make up the noise we hear as a song.

I think a lot of listeners hear the melody and obviously the lyrics and brains work for many along those lines.  Kind of like easy beginner piano music versions of songs.  The music/notes are structured along the overriding melody and simplified so much that you don't get the depth of what is being played by each instrument. 

John's rhythm guitar parts that he went through - again, to someone like me that does not play anything- continues to amaze me because there is so much depth to it all vs what your brain (untrained) hears when listening to music.

I've said it before on here, I don't have the ear to hear individual parts easily, like unless a bass line is somewhat alone for a part of a song, I don't easily hear the bass. 

Even in those early songs, generally called "simple or boring" by non-Beatle fans - the complexity was astounding, certainly for the times.

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2023, 09:29:05 PM »

Right, blmeanie.  As casual listeners, we get to know a song by its melody.  But often there are many parts of a recorded song which together make up the final work.  And so it is with The Beatles' version of Till There Was You that I posted as an example.

I remember sitting in my junior high school auditorium as a seventh-grader listening to a piece being performed by the senior orchestra.  I turned to the fellow sitting next to me and said "I can't hear the bass fiddles."  He, a cellist in the junior orchestra, answered "Yes you do."

Mike Pachelli's Till There Was You lesson takes Rob Taylor's lesson to the next level...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdYoK2klGqM&amp;t=137s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdYoK2klGqM&amp;t=137s</a>



Not having any formal instrument training in school, I was left to my own devices and purchased and learned to play guitar.  Formal lessons waited until I was in my early 20s.

Today, we're fortunate to have musicians like Mike Pachelli who take the time to teach us the intricacies of The Beatles songs we've come to love.  All four of them were geniuses and, with the help of Sir George Martin, further honed their talents.

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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2023, 09:34:40 PM »

Here's the Decca audition of Till There Was You that Mike Pachelli was referring to...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwINsoDxz_Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwINsoDxz_Y</a>


I can see how that caught the attention of Sir George Martin when Brian Epstein played the Decca tapes for him.
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Re: The Long and Winding Road: Bass line analysis
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2023, 10:37:20 PM »

I know I'm going off on a tangent here, but it's a musical tangent so I guess it's okay.

I just wanted to further illustrate the musical genius of The Beatles by posting George and Paul's prowess at harmony lead guitar...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUlbredoUM" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUlbredoUM</a>



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnlj4SVsbA4&amp;t=73s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnlj4SVsbA4&amp;t=73s</a>




I'm sure it infuenced The Allman Brothers Band...


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRE3Bv1goyI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRE3Bv1goyI</a>



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