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[Sondra]

I don't perceive the warm fuzzy feelings of affection here, looks like just a typical example of smug stereotyping to me! Kind of makes the point Sandra did, in my mind (not to make any interpretations on her behalf)  

It's all in good fun I suppose. We do the same kind of lampooning on shows like The Simpsons or South Park. Ever see how they portray the Brits on those shows? But then, those are cartoons.

[Penny Lane]

This a sketch from a show called Harry and paul. I think it's quite an affectionate look at how Brits view americans (and takes as much p*ss out of english reserve as it does out of percieved american openess and naivity (sp) )

What you wrote reminded me of a British woman I met at a place I used to work.  She came in one day and talked to us, and my coworkers and I were oohing and ahhing at her English accent.  We thought it sounded so lovely so we couldn't help ourselves, and we came right out and told her, "We love your accent!"

Then I asked her, "Do the English like American accents as well?"

She smiled and said to me, "Yes, they do, but they would probably be too reserved to tell you so."  I thought that was a very interesting reply since it did seem to underscore our cultural differences.

[Sondra]

The higher the social class is the harder for a person to get accepted there even if he meets the requirements. Is it true?

Nope. Not true at all. Class boundaries here are outdated. The fact that anyone can work hard and become wealthy has pretty much broken down those boundaries. There may be a few old money bitties hanging on to the class thing, but they're a dying bread. I don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as in England where people even class a person by accent. Or at least they used to. But maybe it's getting better there too. As things usually do as people become more enlightened and old, stuffy traditions die out.

At any rate, I think you're way off on your perception of how things work here. I'm not sure where you got the impression, but it's not very accurate. At least from my perspective. Maybe others see if differently. Other Americans.

[Jane]

Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.

[Sondra]

Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.

Yes, we have a lot of families who get financial aid and scholarships. And those families are welcomed in all social circles. We also have the children do community service at every grade and many of the parents expand it at home. We have adopted a special needs school now for years as well and provide them with turkeys for Thanksgiving, presents for the holidays, and food and supplies every single week. There's nothing elitest going on here as far as I can see. So, I just don't see it from your perspective. It's one thing to read about it, but another thing to experience it first hand. The only elite that guard against newcomers are, like I said, some of the old timers who like to hold on to outdated traditions. And even that's changed. But what do I know.

Oh yeah, and when do you think the American Dream died? As frar as I know, people in every free country can work hard and get ahead. That's all the dream ever was. Pretty simple. But I can see you have a pretty set view of how things are over here, so I won't belabor the point.

[Jane]

What makes you think I have a pretty set view about your things? If I had one I wouldn`t have asked questions. All my points are based only on the articles I read in American and British newspapers. And these are not tabloids. I am not challenging your statement that in every free country people work hard and get ahead, that is clear. I wasn`t speaking about that, which you might have thought. Then you didn`t get me right. And don`t get offended I was asking innocent questions and was being just curious since I am not an American. By the way, in any country the elite won`t let any outsiders in. So, actually there`s nothing to argue about. Don`t you think so, Sandra?

[Sondra]

What makes you think I have a pretty set view about your things? If I had one I wouldn`t have asked questions. All my points are based only on the articles I read in American and British newspapers. And these are not tabloids. I am not challenging your statement that in every free country people work hard and get ahead, that is clear. I wasn`t speaking about that, which you might have thought. Then you didn`t get me right. And don`t get offended I was asking innocent questions and was being just curious since I am not an American. By the way, in any country the elite won`t let any outsiders in. So, actually there`s nothing to argue about. Don`t you think so, Sandra?

I wasn't offended and I wasn't arguing. I was discussing. I guess I thought that's what you were going for. A discussion. But your views did seem pretty set. That's just the way it came off in your post. If not, then I apologize for the assumption. You say you're just asking innocent questions, but you do state things in a rather deliberate and provacative way. I think the American dream has more to do than just becoming filthy rich. It's to get ahead, to give your kids better than you had. Things any normal person strives for. No?
And I guess I don't know what you mean by elite because I'm not sure who these people are that have the power to keep others out. I'm not sure who these outsiders are either for that  matter.

So what exactly do you percieve as being the American Dream by the way? Since I was off on that one too. Just an innocent question here.

Here's the definition:
The American Dream is belief in the freedom that allows all citizens and residents of the United States to pursue their goals in life through hard work and bravery. Today, it often refers to one's material prosperity, which is dependent upon one's abilities and work ethic, and not on a rigid class structure.

Although the phrase's meaning has evolved over the course of American history, for some people, it is the opportunity to achieve greater material prosperity than was possible in their countries of origin. For others it is the opportunity for their children to grow up and receive an education and its consequent career opportunities. It is the opportunity to make individual choices without the restrictions of class, caste, religion, race, or ethnic group.

That's a big reason why a lot of people came/come to this country. To escape the class wars. Yes, it exists on some level, but no where near what I think your article implied. But again, that is only my very limited perspective. Hope you're not offended. Just trying to answer your questions is all. If I may.

[Jane]

Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.

You are being unfair to me. Are these deliberate statements on my part, as you say? Are they provocative? Look at my post, at all these questions and "if" clauses and "may be" sentenses! These can`t be statements even, I was asking you for information, cause it`s one thing what newspapers write and quite another thing what people living there know and experience. Do you mean I can`t ask any questions about your country? Why, Sandra? And I would like to learn things.
I sincerely apologise for my questions and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite = a group that is of higher level or rank, professionally, socially and that has a great deal of power or influence in relation to its size. Sorry.

[alexis]

Please don't forget to at least mention the Julius Marx* paradigm of class and upward social mobility in these United States:

"I want nothing to do with any club that would have me as a member"!


* aka Groucho Marx  

[Sondra]

You are being unfair to me. Are these deliberate statements on my part, as you say? Are they provocative? Look at my post, at all these questions and "if" clauses and "may be" sentenses! These can`t be statements even, I was asking you for information, cause it`s one thing what newspapers write and quite another thing what people living there know and experience. Do you mean I can`t ask any questions about your country? Why, Sandra? And I would like to learn things.
I sincerely apologise for my questions and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite = a group that is of higher level or rank, professionally, socially and that has a great deal of power or influence in relation to its size. Sorry.

I was only stating how I was perceiving your posts Jane. You made a couple of statements that seemed to me a bit tongue and cheek such as "Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes." and the one you just made in the above post: "and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite" To me, these statements sound a bit facetious and I was only responding in kind. And I believe I said if I was mistaken, then I apologize.  BTW, I know what elite means. I don't know who in America you're specifically referring to. All rich? Certain rich? Highly educated people? I'm just not sure.

About America being a classless society, I don't believe I ever said such a thing and was only giving an opinion based on my experience as an American. Which is what I thought you were asking for. There's no need to get so upset. This is only a discussion. I'm being direct with you because I respect you. And no where did I state you could not ask questions about any country. Ask away, but be prepared for different kinds of responses. I could veil my answers with a lot of happy faces and sweet talk too if that would be more politically correct, but I think we're above that. I hope we can continue to have discussions in the future, but if I have offended you and you'd prefer not, I'll respect that.  

[Jane]

The reason why I asked about the American Dream is that commonly it is associated with the early 20th century, when many immigrants came to the USA to take the chance of becoming rich and successful. It`s a fact of history. You see the Dream doesn`t imply only hard work, it mostly implies a CHANCE, not missing a chance. (I wonder if Americans themselves know about the Dream.) A century has passed, and it is logical to ask if it is still alive. Nothing to read between the lines about. Now, I think, the rule works in many countries, if not all, but it implies working hard, as times have changed. But maybe in the USA it is more realizable? Maybe it is easier for newcomers to succeed there? Since it is called a country of immigrants. By the way, can you agree with that statement? It wasn`t I who coined the phrase. But do you accept it? I am just interested.

[DaveRam]

You don't have to be an immigrant to succeed in America look what four young men from Liverpool did ?

[Sondra]

The reason why I asked about the American Dream is that commonly it is associated with the early 20th century, when many immigrants came to the USA to take the chance of becoming rich and successful. It`s a fact of history. You see the Dream doesn`t imply only hard work, it mostly implies a CHANCE, not missing a chance. (I wonder if Americans themselves know about the Dream.) A century has passed, and it is logical to ask if it is still alive. Nothing to read between the lines about. Now, I think, the rule works in many countries, if not all, but it implies working hard, as times have changed. But maybe in the USA it is more realizable? Maybe it is easier for newcomers to succeed there? Since it is called a country of immigrants. By the way, can you agree with that statement? It wasn`t I who coined the phrase. But do you accept it? I am just interested.

I think every American knows about the American Dream, but it's interpreted differently by people. Believe me, we learn about it. I mean, every kid starts every day at school with the Pledge of Allegiance and it goes from there. So the notion of the American Dream is alive and well. Of course it basically means opportunity. I think a lot of anger from lower income families comes from the feeling that they're being kept from achieving this dream. So yeah, people all know about it, but not everyone takes advantage of it. Even though we all can. I used to repeat this to my students when I worked for L.A. Unified. They need to know it's possible. Break the cycle. But that's a whole different discussion.

And do I agree with the statement that this is a country of immigrants? Well, considering that I'm only second generation, yes, I agree with it. This country was made by the hard work and labor of immigrants and continues to grow in the same way. Most Americans have roots in "the old country." But we're still all Americans. Mostly.

[alexis]

I think the concept of the American Dream just got a vitamin shot with a black man elected President.

And, probably "anti-Americanism" just went down around the world as well, if the headlines are to be believed.

 

[An Apple Beatle]

^Not hard with war-monger Bush on the way out. He had the monopoly on it! lol

(churchill)

[Sondra]

And, probably "anti-Americanism" just went down around the world as well, if the headlines are to be believed.

 

Doubtful. Check out this interview with the Doors from 1969. Listen to the part about the the kids in Europe. It's interesting. But I guess back then it was Vietnam causing it. It's always something.

YB_Vw9k0aIw

[Jane]

You don't have to be an immigrant to succeed in America look what four young men from Liverpool did ?

The four guys succeeded worldwide.

[Jane]

Yes, Sandra, this is called equality of opportunity. I think Europe is more rigid in this respect with a more strictly structured class system and less possibility to move class. Though hard work can always promote one...However, it all depends on a person and his/her aims in life. Maybe, the aim is spiritual advancement rather than material success. Is it true that one of the American values is material success?

[Penny Lane]

Is it true that one of the American values is material success?

For some Americans, yes--which is probably one of the reasons why people are in debt.  Some people just love their flashy cars, big flat-screen TV's and fancy cell phones, even if they can't really afford those things.  But this is not true for every American, of course.  It just depends on who you are and where your priorities lie.

[Sondra]

Is it true that one of the American values is material success?

This doesn't exist anywhere else? Please. Remember Imelda Marcos and all her shoes? How about as far back as Marie AAntoinette and the whole "let them eat cake" BS. Materialism certainly wasn't invented in the United States. I think many people in the free world are guilty of this. Not just the Americans.  :

Everyone's values are different. Please view us as individuals and not as one giant entity. That's certainly not my value and it's a bit insulting to imply that this is a core value of the entire nation. A nation of 301,139,947 individuals.