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[An Apple Beatle]

Now we go to the heavy, weighty discussion on publishing. Of course they were all paid but you get paid repetively, possibly all your life for a publishing royalty.

As End said. Len/Mac agreed right at the beginning when it was obvious who the main songwriting contributors were to be.


In answer...1. Separate, non-Beatle project. 2. You can drop anyone you like onto credits. This could be for a number of reasons. Ringo unhappy perhaps? Main vocalist/writer on the tune. Just a young band dealing with a first time publishing situation? A pension fund for Richard? Diffusing a potential band break-up?

Did you also know that Macca never wrote his Liverpool Oratario? Someone else did.

That had me shocked. Could he really stoop to such levels?

[raxo]

I'm not the one who's using the argument of "he was already paid" as a valid one, y'know ...

If John and Paul agreed what we all know why Ringo was there in What Goes One and Sir George couldn't have been in Yesterday? The same reasoning can be used in both cases but in Sir George's one is more justified.

For the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)

Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too? Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?

Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?

Anyway ... I see your points, mates ... I only hope you can see mine (it all began with me trying to see Sir George's) ...  

Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...

[The End]

So we're not talking about writing credits after all, only Sir George ... OK, then!  

I've got some questions then:

1. Did Paul write "John Lennon" on his theme for The Family Way one year later? Why?
2. And in Catcall? or it was Woman? one with pseudonymous but the other?
2. What did Ringo do on What Goes On very few months later to share credits?

Does anybody know?  

They all were doing their job ... and they all were paid! ...

1. The Family Way was not a Beatle product and was not even released on Parlophone. But to further prove a point, as in Yesterday, Paul wrote the music and George Martin arranged it - however Paul gets the songwriting credit and NOT a co-writing credit with George Martin because Paul was the composer.
2. Although Paul wrote 'Woman', the songwriter was credited as Bernard Webb. This was just an experiment to see how well the song would fair without a Lennon/McCartney credit.
3. What Goes On was a VERY old song of John's that was resurrected for the Rubber Soul sessions and was worked on by both Paul AND Ringo. Incidentally, Ringo is credited as coming up with the line "waiting for the tides of time".

My argument is that George Martin does not deserve a songwriting credit for a song he did not compose - he was the arranger and producer.

[The End]

IFor the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)

This song is mentioned as being a composition of Ringo's as early as 1963 - it was even partially sung by Paul on a Pop Goes The Beatles radio show (in a somewhat jokey manner though) in reference to it being Ringo's song.

Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?

Paul denies this in his Anthology interview.

Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?

All credited to paul as he composed it.

Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...

The composer always gets the songwriting credit, not the arranger.

[pc31]

john and paul wrote most of what goes on,and i believe don't pass me by was mostly paul....and a contract where copyrights are concerned you must list both parties reguardless who did the work,its like a trademark,thats why john is on yesterday and paul on give peace a chance........thirdly bernard webb was put on woman for 2 reasons,one that peter and grogan wouldn't be over shawdowed by doing a mccartney song and second that it would be considered a lennon and mccartney tune and therefore permission obtainted to use it and payment be made to use it......and lastly it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say...if he did then its sour grapes...they said they owed him a debt...he knows what he did and noone can deny...so why try for more credit..it don't sound like him....he is not that vain....

[The End]

it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say

I have read the original article and you're absolutely right Marshall - it was just a headline grabbing sound-bite and his comment does appear to have been taken out of context.

I stuck my 10 cents in here because some (no names!) appeared to be saying that he DOES deserve a credit instead of John. John deserves to be credited simply because that was his agreement with Paul and George Martin doesn't, because he only(!!) arranged Paul's song for a string quartet.

(flower)

[Bobber]

Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too?

John didn't compose GPAC.

[raxo]

I mentioned The family Way as an example of a theme composed by Paul without Lennon credits ... so the agreement in that case was somehow broken ... Lennon's solo project (Give Peace A Chance) was another example ...

The way Ringo got credits for What Goes On is a significant example too ... he wrote some line for Yellow Submarine too (one he sang) some months later, but got no credits ... and some of them worked on Eleanor Rigby too ... so the formula was somehow arbitrary ... and they were changing now and then in -at least- those two years (65-66) ...  ??)

My point of view is that what Sir George did on Yesterday was more than what John or Paul did on lots of other songs composed by the other of them ... and lots of people consider that wathever the other added was "composing" (not arranging): that's the only thing I was trying to say ... if we consider that one of them (John or Paul) had the right for the credits for some bits then there are lots of other people (not only Sir George) that deserve the credits too ... that's because I said "let's open our minds (all of us)"  

Yep, Paul said he composed Liverpool Oratorio ... and he got the credits ... we're answering a question made by An Apple Beatle here ...  

By the way, the composer doesn't always get the songwriter credit and some arrangers get ... I'd like to know which role Linda had got to get the credits ... but I gues that she only suggested little changes and so ... the role of an arranger perhaps?  ??)

If all of you have proven that I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong ... (flower)

P.S. Let's go on with our (busy) lives ...  

[The End]

This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on

[Bobber]

Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.

[raxo]

This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on

Neither I.  

Tho I've realized that some people around these forums (none of the ones that have posted on this thread) take opinions as something personal or even offensive or attacks against them -don't ask me who or why- ...

I think that our points are already on the table ...

Sir George didn't write or composed the song, I agree -I'm not blind or deaf ... yet ... give me time LOL!- but helped a lot to define it as a great ballad (a great step if you ask me) so in some way he (tho not only he) made it a standard ...

Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded  :-/ - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...

In my opinion, without Sir George decision Yesterday would be another Michelle ... because the melody was/is great and the words were/are not bad but less people would re-main listening as much as they did from the very begining without that classical arrangement ... and perhaps Eleanor Rigby wouldn't get that approach next year.  ??)

I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others) ...

If I'm right there's another discrepancy ...
If I'm wrong I would like to ask if a song that it's compose for another artist when that artist ask you for a song it's not a solo project? More or less as The Family Way theme was ...

[raxo]

Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.

More or less my thoughts too ...

So I seized the opportunity to talk about other people's help, during their career, that were hidden by the famous credits ... and Yesterday is a very good example to do it ...

[The End]

Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded  :-/ - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...

I actually quite like the 'group' arrangement of Yesterday - to my ears it sounds like the only song they did rehearse for their 1966 tour!

I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others) ...

Actually, you are quite right about Catcall - that was released by the Chris Barber Band in 1967 with just a McCartney credit, as was Penina by Carlos Mendez in 1968(or was it 1969?)

Let's be honest here, Paul was always the more savvy businessman  - that is even more obvious today with his MPL publishing empire! And I believe he even re-negotiated a greater share in Northern Songs than John (without his knowledge) before the Beatles broke up!!

[The End]

By the way, here is a link to the 1966 live version of Yesterday recorded at the Budakan in Japan, 1966.

http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3CMBRG711KK233IZPMNUKZT8K1

[raxo]

By the way, here is a link to the 1966 live version of Yesterday recorded at the Budakan in Japan, 1966.

http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3CMBRG711KK233IZPMNUKZT8K1

Cheers, The End!  
That's exactly the version I've got ... I su-pose that that's the only one  ??) ... it seems to me that they are somehow lost on it (Paul's vocal and rhythm electric guitar are the prominent parts, and it's easy to imagine why) ... the song is one-year-old and it's already got its own personality ... the electric/rock version is a rarity ... (almost) everyone who has made a version have chosen a classical or even a minimalist acoustic approach ... it's under(&)table  

[The End]

That's exactly the version I've got ... I su-pose that that's the only one  ??

Nope, here's another version recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:

http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF

[An Apple Beatle]

It's all good to read. Publishing is a messy monster though.

My info about the Oratario came from a reliable source. Someone 'inside' as you might say.

I will tap him up further on this. Maybe this could be the new 'Faul' rumour. lol

Peace to you all.

[raxo]

I've read that Paul did very few on the Oratorio (some indications and changed some things, if you want to see in that way) while Carl Davis wrote/composed most of the things ... It seems that Paul was only involved in the melody part: the hard one was for Carl ...

Peace, Love and Hope for everyone, everywhere ... now and always! (flower)
(By the way, where are you hidden GreenApple?)

[The End]

Nope, here's another version recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:

http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF

This is version 2 from the Budokan, Japan 1966

[The End]

Recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:

http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF

This is version 2 from the Budokan, 1966.