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[Loco Mo]

"In his speech early Thursday morning, Feb 24-2022, Moscow time, Putin announced what he called a “special military operation” and issued a stark warning against Western intervention. “No matter who tries to stand in our way or all the more so create threats for our country and our people, they must know that Russia will respond immediately, and the consequences will be such as you have never seen in your entire history” he said, in remarks officially translated by the Kremlin that seemed to leave little doubt as to the threat of nuclear retaliation.

21st Century history unfolding.  I don't know what to think.  I've always believed, as most people do, that MAD won't happen because of its murder-suicide consequence.  Nuke and you get nuked - no winners, all losers.

[Dmitry]

I don't believe this can happen. I think only cowards can talk like that. He is very scared. He is very afraid of being interrupted during “special military operation”. That's why he talks in this way. These are my thoughts right now on your question in the topic. And as far as I concern NATO is not going to attack Russia.

[Loco Mo]

Dmitry:  I take this to mean that you think he is "bluffing."  All I can say is that I feel a high degree of uncertainty about this prospect.  There are "words of war" and "actions of war."  I think there is a thin line separating the two.  Too much in one direction could inadvertently fuel a dangerous imbalance between what is actually said and what actually occurs.  There are so many elements that influence and cause various human behaviors.  It may not even be Putin's threat that escalates into uncharted territory.  Other participants in war may play their highest valued or only perceived card if they feel threatened enough or defeated without hope of any kind of win or recompense for their losses.  People who are attacked, injured and hurt cannot be expected to respond in a rational intelligently thought-out manner depending upon the degree of the crisis and its unforeseeable resolution or conclusion.  Maybe I'm being a bit obstruse here, but I am afraid to think or overthink about the worst-case scenario too much.

[nimrod]

Military involvement by NATO must be the very last resort, ie, if Russia actually attacks a NATO country.

What's happening in Ukraine is awful. A war between NATO and Russia would be immeasurably worse. A conventional war would have only one outcome... a crushing defeat for Russia. Then, when all is lost for them there is only one military option left for Russia and that leads effectively to the end of civilisation as we know it.

[Hello Goodbye]

Dmitry:  I take this to mean that you think he is "bluffing."  All I can say is that I feel a high degree of uncertainty about this prospect.  There are "words of war" and "actions of war."  I think there is a thin line separating the two.  Too much in one direction could inadvertently fuel a dangerous imbalance between what is actually said and what actually occurs.  There are so many elements that influence and cause various human behaviors.  It may not even be Putin's threat that escalates into uncharted territory.  Other participants in war may play their highest valued or only perceived card if they feel threatened enough or defeated without hope of any kind of win or recompense for their losses.  People who are attacked, injured and hurt cannot be expected to respond in a rational intelligently thought-out manner depending upon the degree of the crisis and its unforeseeable resolution or conclusion.  Maybe I'm being a bit obstruse here, but I am afraid to think or overthink about the worst-case scenario too much.

Loco, you're being both obtuse and abstruse.  Do you really feel that people under attack cannot respond in a rational fashion?

[Loco Mo]

Hello Goodbye:  People as a whole, no.  Perhaps some individuals but I would have to know them before I could make any kind of assumption about them.  Desperate situations can trigger desperate responses and there is the ever-present possibility of a crowd consensus which could override any particular individual sensibilities or inhibitions.  Who can resist the force of an unruly mob?  Exceptions to normal rules of conduct can occur in extremely stressful situations especially those in which you feel your life or the lives of people who matter to you are threatened or under direct attack.  There can be a seemingly timeless element that is captured by a critical moment in which ordinary constraints or restraints can unfetter.  I can't predict what will happen regardless of whether I happen to be personally optimistic or pessimistic.  Loco Mo's view of war is irrelevant.  I am a person far removed from proximity to the physical war.  All I amount to is a talking head not much greater than an ineffectual couch potato who considers himself somehow actually superior to his natural state, which is simple existence.  I will not determine or set any future development in motion.  I will only talk and think and react.  The world as it is will happen with or without me in it and so will the war happen as myriad variables combine and dictate whatever the ultimate outcome will be.  Ouch - too many words in this post.  I'm trying to compensate for not really knowing how to answer your question, Hello.  Perhaps, I should try to quietly sit in the back of the classroom and hope that my lack of presence is not unduly noticed by anyone in particular, especially by the instructor (whomever that may be) in this classroom of life.

[Hello Goodbye]

I agree, Loco, but in this particular case, let's give the brave Ukrainians our utmost commendations for how they are behaving in the face of Putin's aggression.  Ukrainians are defending their country in an orderly fashion.  For example, many Russian tanks have been disabled because the Ukrainians have destroyed their fuel supplies.  They didn't have to fire a shot!  The tanks ran out of gas and were left stranded.  Brilliant tactics on the part of the Ukrainians and certainly not an example of irrational behavior.  Indeed, any irrational behavior in this affair has been on the part of Putin and those in his government who support him.

[nimrod]

I agree, Loco, but in this particular case, let's give the brave Ukrainians our utmost commendations for how they are behaving in the face of Putin's aggression.  Ukrainians are defending their country in an orderly fashion.  For example, many Russian tanks have been disabled because the Ukrainians have destroyed their fuel supplies.  They didn't have to fire a shot!  The tanks ran out of gas and were left stranded.  Brilliant tactics on the part of the Ukrainians and certainly not an example of irrational behavior.  Indeed, any irrational behavior in this affair has been on the part of Putin and those in his government who support him.

Ukrainians are also extremely brave and tough.
I've just read people are volunteering to fight for them from places like UK and Europe. Also fighter jets arriving from the EU for them to use.
Putin is not going to find this easy. He has grossly miscalculated. Hope China are watching (Im sure they are)

[Hello Goodbye]

Ukrainians are also extremely brave and tough.

Yes, Kev.  I posted this picture of one of those brave and tough Ukrainians in a different thread...





 

[zipp]

He is very scared. He is very afraid of being interrupted during “special military operation”. That's why he talks in this way. These are my thoughts right now on your question in the topic. And as far as I concern NATO is not going to attack Russia.

Nice to hear from you Dmitry.

I think Putin is trying more to impress the Russian people than NATO.

He took over the Crimea fairly easily and thought he could take over Ukraine in the same way, but it looks like it was a miscalculation.

So he's trying to bolster support at home.

But we all know Russia has nuclear weapons and we all know the majority of good Russian citizens don't want nuclear war.

[Dmitry]

Want to let you know friends, that I always was very glad to hear various points of view. It helps to look at the world soberly. And thank you all for your support of people of Ukraine and Russia. I don't like Putin, I don't like Zelensky, I don't believe them both - they are both politics, and they both do everything that comes out of it.

Loco Mo is right, that "desperate situations can trigger desperate responses". Everything leads to the collapse of the Russian economy. Don't know what Putin gonna do.

As about me I'm getting more and more worried about how I'm going to survive.

My brother-in-law and his father-in-law in Donetsk left for the war against Ukraine (bacause during last 8 years it is Ukraine who bombed Donetsk). All men there have no other options except go to war. People in Ukraine already 30 years are divided into two nations (West and East). My wife and her family is from Donetsk (East), as you might know. I could talk much about conflicts in Ukraine, but the World doesn't care.

The most important question for me - is how I move to America, if my salary was $3300 a week ago, now it is $2300, and still it is decreasing bacause the ruble is falling. The prices are rapidly growing. The US embassy in Moscow do not issue visas. The US embassy in Poland is out of reach.

It is obvious to me that for the last 20 years Putin has been making our lives more difficult.

[Dmitry]

I think Putin is trying more to impress the Russian people than NATO.
He took over the Crimea fairly easily and thought he could take over Ukraine in the same way, but it looks like it was a miscalculation.
So he's trying to bolster support at home.

The same thoughts I have.

I'm afraid this war will drag on for many years   

[Tamara]

It's time for a new Russian revolution.

[Tamara]

I am sorry for your situation Dmitry.

[Dmitry]

Thank you, Tamara!

[Normandie]

I'm keeping you and your family in my prayers, Dmitry.

[nimrod]

Want to let you know friends, that I always was very glad to hear various points of view. It helps to look at the world soberly. And thank you all for your support of people of Ukraine and Russia. I don't like Putin, I don't like Zelensky, I don't believe them both - they are both politics, and they both do everything that comes out of it.

Loco Mo is right, that "desperate situations can trigger desperate responses". Everything leads to the collapse of the Russian economy. Don't know what Putin gonna do.

As about me I'm getting more and more worried about how I'm going to survive.

My brother-in-law and his father-in-law in Donetsk left for the war against Ukraine (bacause during last 8 years it is Ukraine who bombed Donetsk). All men there have no other options except go to war. People in Ukraine already 30 years are divided into two nations (West and East). My wife and her family is from Donetsk (East), as you might know. I could talk much about conflicts in Ukraine, but the World doesn't care.

The most important question for me - is how I move to America, if my salary was $3300 a week ago, now it is $2300, and still it is decreasing bacause the ruble is falling. The prices are rapidly growing. The US embassy in Moscow do not issue visas. The US embassy in Poland is out of reach.

It is obvious to me that for the last 20 years Putin has been making our lives more difficult.

I think we all feel very sorry for the plight of Russian people and how things will get worse. I just read this article in the English newspaper The Gaurdian.
Sounds like business people are really struggling already.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/the-damage-is-done-russians-face-economic-point-of-no-return?fbclid=IwAR1YzJ8ilREZI5nGjS2RmFRobqd4HA0jd2vew6zipx20GUqcG7mXvULi8fw

I Think the question will be whether Putin can make them continue to believe it’s the west’s fault rather than his own. But I don’t think he’s started the PR battle any better than he has the invasion tbh.

[Hello Goodbye]

As about me I'm getting more and more worried about how I'm going to survive.

It is obvious to me that for the last 20 years Putin has been making our lives more difficult.

Dmitry, my country's founding document begins with these words...


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The most important question for me - is how I move to America...

I hope you and your family can get here soon.

[Dmitry]

Thanks for support, friends!

[nimrod]

The Oligarch's children are unhappy now, their affluent lifestyle is being ruined.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-12/rich-kids-of-russia-speak-out-against-putin/100898516