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[Xose]

- Harrison (=shuffle rhythm on V fret, with the pinky fingering the 6th):



 - Lennon (=open A chord on II fret):



- McCartney (=probably thumbing the lower string on the V fret):



McCartney used to thumb his chords by those days..., didn't he??:





He did the same a few months earlier in Liverpool:



Different pickup but same right-hand technique. And..., still some piano strings at the Top Ten??:



Opinions welcome...

Best!!

Xosé

[peterbell1]

There's a lot of 7th chords being played.
I remember seeing an interview where they attributed their use of a lot of 7th chords to Tony Sheridan. They said when they first heard him in Hamburg they were still playing with a basic A or E chord (for example), but they liked the way Sheridan was using an E7 or A7 and it sounded more interesting.

You can also see that they have already worked out that when you have 2 or 3 guitar players, they shouldn't all play the same chord shape - it sounds best if they play the chords at different places on the fretboard

[Xose]

There's a lot of 7th chords being played.
I remember seeing an interview where they attributed their use of a lot of 7th chords to Tony Sheridan. They said when they first heard him in Hamburg they were still playing with a basic A or E chord (for example), but they liked the way Sheridan was using an E7 or A7 and it sounded more interesting...

This is very interesting... Thank you!!

It would be nice to get that interview...

...You can also see that they have already worked out that when you have 2 or 3 guitar players, they shouldn't all play the same chord shape - it sounds best if they play the chords at different places on the fretboard

I agree...

But..., is Macca's thumb doing another job on those chords?? (=maybe, playing bass??)

Xosé

[Xose]

But..., is Macca's thumb doing another job on those chords?? (=maybe, playing bass??)...

For example: have a look at this photo:



I could be wrong, but looks like Lennon is playing a D open chord on II fret:



This opinion could be strengthened by the fact Harrison looks lke if he were playing shuffle rhythm on V fret (=also on D):


And..., what is doing McCartney?? Clearly, a D7 chord on III fret (=C7 shape):



But his ring finger is not at the root (=D: V fret, 5th string), but at the 5th (=A: V fret, 6th string)

Is he playing bass??

Xosé

[Bobber]

It looks as if Paul has a full set of strings on the Rosetti in the Top Ten Club.

[Xose]

It looks as if Paul has a full set of strings on the Rosetti in the Top Ten Club.

Yes, but... all of them regular guitar strings??

See here:





Xosé

[Bobber]

As you can see, the E and G look different than the other strings. I really can't tell if there a B and E, but looking at Pauls finger positions, it looks as if the strings are there.

[Xose]

As you can see, the E and G look different than the other strings. I really can't tell if there a B and E, but looking at Pauls finger positions, it looks as if the strings are there.

Correct!!  

The B and -high- E are there, but the -bottom- E and G look different than the other strings. Piano strings?? For what??

Xosé

[peterbell1]

And..., what is doing McCartney?? Clearly, a D7 chord on III fret (=C7 shape):



But his ring finger is not at the root (=D: V fret, 5th string), but at the 5th (=A: V fret, 6th string)

Is he playing bass??

Xosé

I don't think that this "A" note on the 6th string, 5th fret would sound out correctly if played like that. I think he is covering the D note on the 5th string, 5th fret and his finger has gone a little over the 6th string too, maybe just to dampen the 6th string so that it doesn't sound out at all - then the first note of the chord you hear will be the D root note. He is also holding his thumb over the 6th string around the 3rd or 4th fret, which is what I would do when playing this chord - you don't want the open 6th string E note to sound in that D7 chord so you dampen the 6th string and strum the middle 4 strings out of the 6 on the guitar.
So I think he is playing this as a guitar not as a bass.

[Xose]

I don't think that this "A" note on the 6th string, 5th fret would sound out correctly if played like that. I think he is covering the D note on the 5th string, 5th fret and his finger has gone a little over the 6th string too, maybe just to dampen the 6th string so that it doesn't sound out at all - then the first note of the chord you hear will be the D root note. He is also holding his thumb over the 6th string around the 3rd or 4th fret, which is what I would do when playing this chord - you don't want the open 6th string E note to sound in that D7 chord so you dampen the 6th string and strum the middle 4 strings out of the 6 on the guitar.
So I think he is playing this as a guitar not as a bass.

Yes: your analysis seems correct for me...

Thank you very much!!

Xosé

[peterbell1]

The B and -high- E are there, but the -bottom- E and G look different than the other strings. Piano strings?? For what??

Xosé

The low E and the G string do look different, but maybe they are just newer strings and the A and D strings have been on the guitar a while and have become dirty. If you don't have much money then you change strings only when they break! You don't change the whole lot at the same time. So maybe the E and G strings were the most recent to break and so have newer, "cleaner" stings on there.

Going off at a tangent, it's surprising they didn't have a back-up guitar with them when they played in Hamburg. If someone broke a string then would the band just stand around while it was changed?! (Actually, there do seem to be quite a few photos of the band on stage just "standing around" having a cigarette or whatever and not actually playing!!)

[Xose]

The low E and the G string do look different, but maybe they are just newer strings and the A and D strings have been on the guitar a while and have become dirty. If you don't have much money then you change strings only when they break! You don't change the whole lot at the same time. So maybe the E and G strings were the most recent to break and so have newer, "cleaner" stings on there...

Ok. Your analysis seems -again- very logical... Thanks!!

...Going off at a tangent, it's surprising they didn't have a back-up guitar with them when they played in Hamburg. If someone broke a string then would the band just stand around while it was changed?! (Actually, there do seem to be quite a few photos of the band on stage just "standing around" having a cigarette or whatever and not actually playing!!)

I agree...

Xosé

[Bobber]

ayed in Hamburg. If someone broke a string then would the band just stand around while it was changed?! (Actually, there do seem to be quite a few photos of the band on stage just "standing around" having a cigarette or whatever and not actually playing!!)

They were paid for actually being on stage. Well, that was in the Kaiserkeller. Even if they didn't participate in a song at all, they had to be on stage because that was agreed in the contract. Plus these were long nights, so they ate, drank and smoked while being on stage.

[peterbell1]

This is very interesting... Thank you!!

It would be nice to get that interview...

Xosé

I had a look on The Anthology DVD but I couldn't see it in the Hamburg section.
Perhaps it is on the Anthology Directors Cut which I have seen but not for a while.

I did find this while doing a quick search on Google, which says someone called Vinnie Tow was showing the Beatles 7th chords ...
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/lord-woodbine-the-forgotten-sixth-beatle-2015140.html
(scroll down the page about half way)

I can't believe the Beatles didn't know how to play a 7th chord though - even in the very very early years of the band. They were heavily influenced by people like Buddy Holly who used 7th chords all the time. It's a basic part of the rock n roll style which came out of the 12-bar blues patterns.

I think in the interview about Sheridan, Paul was speaking about how Sheridan used the 7th chords even more heavily than usual - so where someone else might play a song in the key of E using the chords E, A and B7, Sheridan would use E7, A7 and B7. The Beatles liked this and "borrowed" the idea from him.

[Xose]

...I think in the interview about Sheridan, Paul was speaking about how Sheridan used the 7th chords even more heavily than usual - so where someone else might play a song in the key of E using the chords E, A and B7, Sheridan would use E7, A7 and B7. The Beatles liked this and "borrowed" the idea from him.

Aha... Good point... Thank you!!

The most "strange" solo in The Beatles early days is Harrison's one on 'Till There Was You'. I have always thought that Jim Gretty was behind that solo...

Xosé

[peterbell1]

Aha... Good point... Thank you!!

The most "strange" solo in The Beatles early days is Harrison's one on 'Till There Was You'. I have always thought that Jim Gretty was behind that solo...

Xosé

Yeah, I always loved the solo in Till There Was You. I have never heard the original, or whichever version it was that the Beatles copied their version from. Maybe there's a version of that song which has that exact same solo and George just copied it note for note?? It has a very "jazz" feel to it and they are using major 7th chords etc which aren't usual in straight rock n roll patterns.

I suppose it was McCartney's influence, getting them to add these show tunes into their set, which was one factor which set them apart from other groups. They could cater to all age groups rather than just play rock n roll for teenagers - just look at the Royal Variety Show, where they played Till There Was You (for the older generation) and then went into Twist And Shout (for the kids). It's very clever marketing.

And The Beatles would then re-use all these non-rock chords in their own compositions - even early songs like Ask Me Why have some really nice chord sequences and harmonies going on. They were very clever young men and knew exactly what they were doing when they gathered all these different influences and re-used them in their own songs.

[Bobber]

The song comes from the show The Music Man originally. I'm not sure whether the song was recorded in another version, which the Beatles adopted.

The Music Man Shirley Jones "Till There Was You"

[peterbell1]

The song comes from the show The Music Man originally. I'm not sure whether the song was recorded in another version, which the Beatles adopted.

The Music Man Shirley Jones "Till There Was You"

Blimey - I don't like that one!! 

According to Wikipedia, Macca first heard the song through a Peggy Lee record ....

""Till There Was You" was a minor hit in the UK for Peggy Lee in March 1961. Paul McCartney was introduced to her music by his older cousin, Bett Robbins, who would occasionally baby-sit the two McCartney brothers. McCartney said: "I had no idea until much later that it was from The Music Man.""

Here's the Peggy Lee version ....

Peggy Lee - 'Till there was you

The guitar solo in the Beatles version isn't anything like the solo in this version, though the arrangement of the rest of the song is basically the same.

The same Wikipedia page goes on to mention about how the song shows off The Beatles' versatility and gives the example of how they performed it right before Twist and Shout at the Royal Variety Performance (I didn't copy my earlier post from Wikipedia - honest!)

[Xose]

Well. Both McCartney and Harrison said that they had learnt the so-called “Gretty chord” from Jim Gretty (=also used on 'Michelle', by the way...). The chord is heard at the end of the solo, so.., why don't believe that Jim Gretty was behind it??

That solo is not like Harrison's solo vocabulary for other Beatle songs from the same period...

Said that, I think was McCartney idea to include latin flavour for the song, with the Ramírez and bongós. Remember that the source for the song was Peggy Lee Latin alla Lee álbum...

Xosé

[peterbell1]

I didn't know that about the "Gretty Chord", which is a maj7th chord I think.
Most of the pages I found about Gretty say he was a country & western performer as well as working in Hessy's. That solo on TTWY is more of a jazz guitar style than C&W. I wonder if there is another song with that solo and George just lifted the solo from one song and placed it into TTWY. It does seem way too complicated a style for George to be coming up with on his own back in 1962.

Here's another pre-Beatles version but still nothing that suggests where George got the guitar part from

Anita Bryant song showcase Part 3 - Til There Was You + 3