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[tkitna]

john lennon's last song 'starting over' is kind of saying - "ive been a bad husband, lets take a vacation" - that's really not preachy at all. it's admitting to having flaws
that peace/imagine messaih stuff is largely yoko's rap

I agree about 'Starting Over'. I think John finally started to feel comfortable in his own skin around that time and was ready to really give us some great, honest music during the 80's, but it wasnt meant to be. 

[Jane]

In the context of this discussion, its right on the money though. John didnt practice what he preached. Theres many other aspects too.

John was human and made mistakes like all of us do. The point I was trying to make though was that the people who look at John as some holy messiah or peace activist are wrong. They're fooled into thinking that way. Thats all.

I believe that John didn`y preach anything, he sang songs. You shouldn`t take his songs as prayers otherwise you yourself appear to be thinking that John was a messiah. He wasn`t a messiah, but a lot of what he said, his ideas turned out to be ahead of his times. And that is very interesting!
Actually he was a peace activist at some time of his life and even was persecuted for that, not openly, but he was in the CIA files. Was it for nothing? Certainly not!

[Jane]

and had a stack of playboy magazines at the foot of his bed

so next time some hackeysack playing unbathed idiot tries to tell you about martin luther king, the dali lama and john lennon . . . go to your stereo and crank out 'run for your life'

i'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man

Playboy magazines? Not bad indeed! I approve of it! 
I am sure that Martin Luther King and Dalay Lama had a lot of faults and kept their favourite glossy magazines and, who knows, maybe playboy ones as well?? 

[tkitna]

He wasn`t a messiah, but a lot of what he said, his ideas turned out to be ahead of his times. And that is very interesting!

Oh please, clue us in. What exactly was ahead of their times that John preached? I must know.

Actually he was a peace activist at some time of his life and even was persecuted for that, not openly, but he was in the CIA files. Was it for nothing? Certainly not!

What was it for then? Even the presient of the United States knew the hold that Lennon had on the heard. I see that its no different here on this board. A drug addict preaching about peace. Priceless.

[Joost]

Actually he was a peace activist

That's an insult to everyone who ever actually suffered and sacrificed for peace. What did John do besides sing a few catch phrases about peace and not leaving a fancy hotel room for a week? John was nothing more than a bored, rich rock star looking for a hobby and something to sing about.

[Mairi]

If you want to talk about peace activists, why don't you talk about Joan Baez, she actually spent time in jail for encourageing people to burn their draft cards!

im just sayin

[Joost]

If you want to talk about peace activists, why don't you talk about Joan Baez, she actually spent time in jail for encourageing people to burn their draft cards!

Or Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine/Audioslave, who personally organizes strikes and boycots for oppressed workers and has sued the US government on a few occasions.

[Mairi]

I never knew about that. I don't really listen to their music, but that's really cool.

[JimmyMcCullochFan]

Thunderclap Newman's "Something In The Air" knocked this song off of number one 

[nyfan(41)]

If you want to talk about peace activists, why don't you talk about Joan Baez, she actually spent time in jail for encourageing people to burn their draft cards!

Or Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine/Audioslave, who personally organizes strikes and boycots for oppressed workers and has sued the US government on a few occasions.

^^^
didn't know that on both counts - cool
.
and i guess you might as well throw bob geldof and the unbelievably charitable harry chapin and . . . (fights the urge) b . . b . . bono
.
.
but in all fairness, i think john lennon put his money where his mouth was also- he put up money for magic alex to invent electric paint 

[Jane]

Again, I wrote a huge post, but it got clashed with another one and disappeared. I won`t rewrite it, but I will repeat the main idea that one has to be there at that time to understand the whole situation. Please, watch videos and see films, read books to judge. What those people you mentioned did is nothing. Workers still remain workers. John was a singer, a poet, he wasn`t supposed to give his blood for anybody, and he didn`t intend to. He sang songs. This is his way of being involved. If you don`t like him you will go on with this rhetoric of yours. No matter. Besides, he couldn`t do much cause he wasn`t an American citizen, it was all very risky, you have forgotten about it!
I quit, guys! I won`t write here any more. This is all very unfair. I can`t stand unfairness. Good luck to you!

[nyfan(41)]

I quit, guys! I won`t write here any more.

.
i'm sorry jane, i cant permit that
this thread is supposed to reach 12 pages and you're a big part of it ! you're doing great - your points are well backed up and respectfully presented 
.
now . . . get to typin ! !
 

[Joost]

Please, watch videos and see films, read books to judge.

We're all Beatles fans here. We've watched the videos and films and read the books.

What those people you mentioned did is nothing.

Be honest, what do you know about what Tom Morello did? If you would've done just a little bit of research before making such a statement, you would've found out that among many other things he:
- Founded Axis Of Justice (a non-profit organization for social justice - http://axisofjustice.net)
- Was a driving force behind Guess Jeans sweatshop and Taco Bell boycots
- Organized strikes by the LA janitors and Southern California grocery workers
- Sued the US government for the declassification of all documents relating to the use of music in interrogations at Guantanamo Bay

John was a singer, a poet, he wasn`t supposed to give his blood for anybody, and he didn`t intend to. He sang songs. This is his way of being involved.

In other words: he was a singer and a poet, not an activist.

If you don`t like him you will go on with this rhetoric of yours.

We're Beatles fans, of course we like John Lennon. We just don't choose to idolize him to the point where we're seeing him as a flawless human being. And what you call "this rhetoric of yours" are just opinions that differ from yours.

This is all very unfair. I can`t stand unfairness. Good luck to you!

What's unfair about people having different opinions and expressing them?

[nyfan(41)]

In other words: he was a singer and a poet, not an activist.

.
why are these mutually exclusive of eachother?
example - stevie wonder's 1981 song 'happy birthday' directly led to martin luther kings birthday being declared an american federal holiday
also, i think bob dylan's 'hurricane' helped get hurricane carter a second trial
.
i think any of the people cited in these last few posts would cite john lennon as someone who used his fame platform to speak out against war and for peace
he spoke out against the vietnam war when the beatles were still moptops
his involvement in anti war rallies and his influence in the peace movement was why nixon was trying to deport him
he hosted the mike douglas show and brought out yippie jerry rubin and black panther bobby seale
once again, using his fame as a platform
and of course, he basically penned the themesong for the anti war movement
.
john lennon- definitely not a flawless saint / / but certainly one of many figures who played a role in the anti war movement - if nothing more than getting it publicity ! 

[Joost]

why are these mutually exclusive of eachother?

They aren't. But as Jane said it herself:

he wasn`t supposed to give his blood for anybody, and he didn`t intend to. He sang songs.

= He wasn't an activist, just a singer.

[nyfan(41)]

so hold on - do you know the definition of activist?
that is someone who takes vigorous action in support or opposition of a cause
writing a worldwide hit song for a cause or speaking about it on televison isn't an activity?
.
so what about authors who write about causes to affect public opinion - they aren't acitivists?
.
please don't even respond to this because the logic in your last comment was forced my brother
maybe jane was right and people just like to have at her
- don't worry jane, i'm gonna be an activist for you up in this thead 
.
just three more pages and we hit 12 people ! ! ! 

[Joost]

so hold on - do you know the definition of activist?
that is someone who takes vigorous action in support or opposition of a cause
writing a worldwide hit song for a cause or speaking about it on televison isn't an activity?
.
so what about authors who write about causes to affect public opinion - they aren't acitivists?

That's right, they're not activists.

Definition of activism:

The use of direct, often confrontational action, such as a demonstration or strike, in opposition to or support of a cause.
(http://www.answers.com/topic/activism)

Activists use actions. Singers, poets and writers use words. Of course you can change things with words, but that still doesn't make you an activist.

please don't even respond to this because the logic in your last comment was forced my brother

I'll respond whenever I want to respond.

maybe jane was right and people just like to have at her

I know it might not seem like it sometimes, but I actually like Jane a whole lot. She seems like a very warm, friendly and caring person to me. I just happen to disagree with her quite often. But since this is a discussion forum that shouldn't be a problem, right?

[tkitna]

I love Jane. Not liking Jane was never a question in this thread. We dont see eye to eye on something,,,,big deal. I think her admiration for John blinds her somewhat and she probably thinks I have some kind of dislike for the guy (I dont) because of the negative stance I take. I dont think either of us are going to change our minds so debating anymore is fruitless.

Peace

[nyfan(41)]

Joost, I got my definition from Webster's - but even by the one you posted, look at that picture- - the man took his money and bought a big billboard in times square with a statement against the war. within the very borders of the government engaged in same war - wasn't that a direct confrontational action. a demonstration even? demonstrations are to bring attention to a cause right?

the bed in for peace that got world wide attention? like it or not - that was a demonstration

but if i understand right, john lennon performed at and attended rallies and that helped put him in hot water . . .
what about the john sinclair rally attended by 20,000?

wasn't the reason the fbi had secret files on him because of his anti war activities?

if you look up john lennon on wikipedia, the first sentence is:John Winston Ono Lennon, MBE (9 October 1940 – 8 December 1980) was an English rock musician, singer-songwriter, author, and peace activist . .
 
i don't agree with everything said about lennon, but you said calling him an activist was an insult to real activists who suffered - well . .
he got involved in the antiwar movement, was involved in rallies and demonstrations . . and they tried to deport him for it
according to some people it resulted in his being murdered
why's it have to be a competition of who's a more actively active avtivist? 
lennon fit the bill

[lennonista]

I gotta jump in here on the side that John was an activist... although not necessarily that committed of one. I mean, he was pretty committed at the time, but John was famous for getting very heavily into something and then sort of easing off as he moved on to something else. He didn't quite abandon what he had previously embraced, but he just got into new stuff. He was capricious that way.

But his peacenik era actually left a very profound mark... he wrote the iconic Imagine, his Bed-In stunt will forever be in our memories, and we just can't forget Give Peace a Chance. He became a (the?) symbol of the peace movement, which really influenced a lot of people... like me and many, many others of my generation.