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[nimrod]

I've always been a John kinda guy but...
Been thinking about this. Listening to Paul's very early songs. (1956) He seemed so much more musical than John, he even gave him guitar lessons (teaching him how to play chords correctly).
Paul wrote two phenomenal songs at age 14, one of them "Suicide" the other was the brilliant "When I'm 64"
Both Jazz inflected, with clever chord configurations and melodies.

[MEDIA=youtube]GYnkk5T_-IQ[/MEDIA]

Paul was also more prolific than John "I Lost My Little Girl" & "Thinking Of Linking" both very catchy.
I've been mulling over this period and I just think Paul was full of motivation, enthusiasm and goddam energy (as he was later in Get Back, MMT etc) and this may have helped John develop his own craft and overcome his laziness which was always a tendency of John's. Also he could've been intrigued at Paul's use of Jazz and more intricate chord progressions. (He could also play piano).
John's first complete song was "Hello Little Girl" in 1957, after Paul had joined the band, interestingly he used the "little girl" in the title as per Paul's previous song.

This isnt something that really matters, but just an interesting slant on things. Did Paul help John develop into what he became ?
What do you think, would John have written all those great songs if he'd never met Paul ? (or dont you care)

[Hello Goodbye]

Kev, don't forget...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO1nbCX0g8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO1nbCX0g8</a>

...which he wrote when he was 16


I feel as you do.  John learned more from Paul than Paul learned from John.  But they had a symbiotic relationship and the result was spectacular.

[Moogmodule]

I’d be surprised if Paul’s musicality didn’t influence John a lot. But Also I think John helped Paul on the lyric side.

[nimrod]

I’d be surprised if Paul’s musicality didn’t influence John a lot. But Also I think John helped Paul on the lyric side.

Good point Moog

[Normandie]

I've been mulling over this period and I just think Paul was full of motivation, enthusiasm and goddam energy (as he was later in Get Back, MMT etc) and this may have helped John develop his own craft and overcome his laziness which was always a tendency of John's. Also he could've been intrigued at Paul's use of Jazz and more intricate chord progressions. (He could also play piano).

I'm in agreement with you in regard to Paul probably prompted, whether directly or indirectly, John to overcome what seems to be his innate laziness. I also wonder how much a sense of competition (on John's part) played a role.

[nimrod]

Kev, don't forget...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO1nbCX0g8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfO1nbCX0g8</a>

...which he wrote when he was 16


I feel as you do.  John learned more from Paul than Paul learned from John.  But they had a symbiotic relationship and the result was spectacular.

Thats a good video Baz, at what age did he write IFTS, any idea ?

[tkitna]

I'm sure John learned a lot from Paul.  There were times he put that to better use than the teacher did also.

[blmeanie]

I'm in agreement with you in regard to Paul probably prompted, whether directly or indirectly, John to overcome what seems to be his innate laziness.

wish I had someone to do that for me

[Hello Goodbye]

Thats a good video Baz, at what age did he write IFTS, any idea ?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoRbIkew1Ck" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoRbIkew1Ck</a>

Kev, he wrote it at age 16 "in the front parlor of our little council house in Liverpool."






20 Forthlin Road


so and oh are melismas.   

[Hello Goodbye]

You know, Kev, I love that song so much that I want to see Paul sing it again...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SG-wGbx5mI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SG-wGbx5mI</a>

The audience loved it too.   

[Moogmodule]

It’s interesting that John appeared more dominant up til Revolver. Most of the singles were considered John songs and more of the standout songs on albums. After seeing Get Back though I’m wondering if there was a lot more of John coming with a basic idea, so it’s “his” song, but Paul giving him a lot of help to finish them off. Then, when they stopped touring and things became more individual, less eyeball to eyeball writing, Paul’s natural productivity asserted itself.

[Loco Mo]

I think there was more complexity overall in Paul's songs.  Think of "Too many people and Uncle Albert."  John's songs were simpler but emotionally touching such as "Across the Universe, Jealous Guy, and Imagine."  John didn't need to do a lot to make a very powerful song.  He just needed a theme, a few notes, and some repetitions.  Think of "Remember."  It seems so simple but it's very effective.  Also, the song "John Sinclair" is rarely spoken of but, wow, it's so infectious.  I love listening to it (although rarely).

So, I would say that John's simplicity is a major component of his masterful songwriting.  Paul's have so many musical things happening throughout his songs, transitions, bridges, etc.  I think "For no one" is kind of similar to the way John wrote.  It's a simple melody without a lot of other musical components added to it.

Well, I'm no Rick Beato so take my opine for what it's worth.  Just a man in the street proffered a megaphone and encouraged to speak.  What can he say of any possible insight or importance?  Perhaps all he can do is express his discontent at his place in the world but feel somewhat important in expressing his cathartic speech.  I know this is an irrelevant comment.  Why'd I bother writing it?

[nimrod]

I think there was more complexity overall in Paul's songs.  Think of "Too many people and Uncle Albert."  John's songs were simpler but emotionally touching such as "Across the Universe, Jealous Guy, and Imagine."  John didn't need to do a lot to make a very powerful song.  He just needed a theme, a few notes, and some repetitions.  Think of "Remember."  It seems so simple but it's very effective.  Also, the song "John Sinclair" is rarely spoken of but, wow, it's so infectious.  I love listening to it (although rarely).

So, I would say that John's simplicity is a major component of his masterful songwriting.  Paul's have so many musical things happening throughout his songs, transitions, bridges, etc.  I think "For no one" is kind of similar to the way John wrote.  It's a simple melody without a lot of other musical components added to it.

Well, I'm no Rick Beato so take my opine for what it's worth.  Just a man in the street proffered a megaphone and encouraged to speak.  What can he say of any possible insight or importance?  Perhaps all he can do is express his discontent at his place in the world but feel somewhat important in expressing his cathartic speech.  I know this is an irrelevant comment.  Why'd I bother writing it?

I get your point Loco but things are never that simple with Beatles.
What about the differing time signature's in songs like I Call Your Name and those wonderful intricate mellisma's in Not A Second Time ? John wrote quite  a few songs with differing time signatures.

It’s interesting that John appeared more dominant up til Revolver. Most of the singles were considered John songs and more of the standout songs on albums. After seeing Get Back though I’m wondering if there was a lot more of John coming with a basic idea, so it’s “his” song, but Paul giving him a lot of help to finish them off. Then, when they stopped touring and things became more individual, less eyeball to eyeball writing, Paul’s natural productivity asserted itself.

Thats kind of what I was thinking off when I started the thread Moog. John was naturally lazy I've always felt, Paul was a bubbly enthusiastic guy who probably influenced John in the fine art of actually working hard.

[Loco Mo]

Thanks, nimrod, for reminding me that sometimes things are not as simple as they may seem.  When I wrote the post, it was just something spontaneous without any depth to it.

I listened to "Not a second time" and felt some old feelings of Beatlemania stirring inside of me.  What great vocals!  Those early Beatles were so incredible and phenomenal.  To think some people labeled their early stuff as "bubblegum music."   What an explosion of original and exciting music they produced back then!

[Moogmodule]

Pondering this, we shouldn’t be too quick to downplay John’s songwriting skills and his energy, particularly in the first couple of years of the Beatles fame.  Until revolver, John was the dominant songwriter and the undisputed band leader.  While Get Back shows a Paul dominated group, this was when Paul was really at his peak and John had a lot going on in his life, to put it mildly. It doesn’t mean in 64/65 John wasn’t similarly dominant. As we’ve seen with John, he gets bored easily and perhaps after that first two or three years he did step back looking for his next obsession. I’d love to have seen a fly on the wall documentary on making Help or Rubber Soul.

[nimrod]

Pondering this, we shouldn’t be too quick to downplay John’s songwriting skills and his energy, particularly in the first couple of years of the Beatles fame.  Until revolver, John was the dominant songwriter and the undisputed band leader.  While Get Back shows a Paul dominated group, this was when Paul was really at his peak and John had a lot going on in his life, to put it mildly. It doesn’t mean in 64/65 John wasn’t similarly dominant. As we’ve seen with John, he gets bored easily and perhaps after that first two or three years he did step back looking for his next obsession. I’d love to have seen a fly on the wall documentary on making Help or Rubber Soul.

I was really meaning the very early days Moog. Before the period you mentioned.
Paul I feel really encouraged John to work harder at writing WITH Paul. I think John was more dominant in the period you mention (64/65) because of Paul's urging in those early days.

[Moogmodule]

I was really meaning the very early days Moog. Before the period you mentioned.
Paul I feel really encouraged John to work harder at writing WITH Paul. I think John was more dominant in the period you mention (64/65) because of Paul's urging in those early days.

Oh yeah. That sounds about right. Finding someone like Paul who could push him on songwriting probably did spur his competitive side.