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Author Topic: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!  (Read 5241 times)

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BlueMeanie

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2008, 08:14:46 AM »

Quote from: 216

Are you a recovering Catholic too?

What an excellent phrase!
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colleengirl95

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2008, 10:23:16 AM »

My mom told me about this when we were eating in a japanese restaurant and i told her that i heard about it too because i always have beatles news letters but all i can say is Finally they have the hearts to forgive John... John was like handling too much at that time... too bad they didn't understand his situation and too bad people didn't have empathy. Still thank you for forgiving John.. i think he'd be happy to know this.
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Joe

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2008, 10:29:09 AM »

Response from Peter Brown in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/l25lennon.html?_r=1
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Geoff

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2008, 04:17:28 PM »

Quote from: 551
LOL! I guess their motto is, "Better late than never!"

Maybe in contemplating eternity so much, time just slows down for them ...a lot.

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harihead

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2008, 06:03:37 PM »

LOL! Yes, no sense in rushing. It seems John's forgiveness was on the fast track. Poor Galileo!

Quote from: 216
Are you a recovering Catholic too?
Guilty. Oops, that's redundant! :) No, I left the Catholic church about 30 years ago. I had an intense 2-year bout with born-again Christianity, before their insistence that I rejoice while my unsaved family burned to death before my eyes sort of cured me of the whole religion thing. I have led a productive, ethical life ever since, and never felt I needed religion to show me the way. The ethical laws of society are generally plenty good enough on their own, are way easier to bring up to date, and are what the majority of church-goers follow anyway. (Very few slaves and stonings these days, and extremely little turning of the other cheek.)

Colleengirl95, you are certainly correct in my book in suggesting that people could have more empathy. It would head off a lot of misunderstandings! But unless John was a religious person-- and I really can't get a bead on whether he was or not, as he seemed to have shifted about-- I don't think he'd really care if the church forgave him or not. He might find it mildly amusing, but I don't expect it would be particularly meaningful to him.

And sorry, HG, but those are silly hats. I'm not sure I would have wanted to wear one as a young girl. Although the Beatles also burned incense, which was another cool draw in the pomp department...
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adamzero

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2008, 06:45:49 PM »

Does this mean that John gets to forgive the Catholic Church for the Inquisition and Counter-Reformation?  

And I thought it was God who forgave, not humans.
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harihead

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2008, 10:40:29 PM »

I think everybody gets to forgive, AZ. I found it a particularly healthy habit, although I admit it was a good dozen years before I could be normal around my ex again. As for any special God-forgiving powers, I think he can still give you a "Get out of hell free" card, but you really ought to go to confession if you're Catholic.  
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Mairi

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2008, 02:51:04 PM »

As a Catholic, one of my favourite activities, along with judging other people, is killing adorable little kittens and drinking their blood.
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HeyJude18

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 03:08:51 PM »

As a former Catholic I like to keep kittens alive!  LOL.
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alexis

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2008, 06:59:10 PM »

I'm not Catholic, and I have problems with some of their core ideas ... but I know that a lot of people would feel similarly about mine (Presbyterian) ... but underlying all this bashing I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...
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Jane

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2008, 09:38:58 PM »

I wonder too, like Alexis, and would like to ask if you are all atheists?
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adamzero

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2008, 09:52:30 PM »

Quote from: 551
I think everybody gets to forgive, AZ. I found it a particularly healthy habit, although I admit it was a good dozen years before I could be normal around my ex again. As for any special God-forgiving powers, I think he can still give you a "Get out of hell free" card, but you really ought to go to confession if you're Catholic.  

Not a Catholic, just raised Episcopalian.  

I know the Lord's prayer says, "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us."  "Trespass" is alternately translated "debts" and "sins"--however, from a theological perspective it would seem that only the Lord's power to forgive ultimately matters to the forgiven.  A human's power of forgiveness may help the forgiver spiritually (and help the forgiven to seek forgiveness in turn from the Lord).  But unless the forgiven seeks forgiveness from the Lord, an absolute spiritual authority, his/her forgiveness by a temporal authority (you or me) is ultimately meaningless.  

That's where the Catholic Church seems to cross the line for me.  It is ultimately a temporal institution investing itself with spiritual authority (to do all manner of good--and horrible--things).  

Hence the question, why "forgive" John Lennon, who is dead (and by orthodox Christianity, beyond the means to change his ultimate status as saved or damned)?  If they had really meant it, they should have forgiven him at the time he made his comment--both to assist in the working out of the salvation of their individual members and in putting John Lennon of a path to seek forgiveness from the Lord.  

There's no point to turning the other cheek if you want the person hitting you to go to hell.  And if you think that way, you're probably in hell psychically already.
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Mairi

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2008, 11:57:21 PM »

Indeed. It's up to God whether or not to "forgive" John, not the vatican. And anyway, most people still don't get that John wasn't bashing Christianity when he made that comment. Rather, he was remarking on the absurdity of one rock band's hold on a nation.
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slick rick

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2008, 12:53:10 AM »

too bad that it doesn't matter not if the vatican forgives john to him at all.nor me.it is all hype to generate the machine....don't fall in league.
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Sondra

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2008, 12:56:00 AM »

Quote from: 568
I'm not Catholic, and I have problems with some of their core ideas ... but I know that a lot of people would feel similarly about mine (Presbyterian) ... but underlying all this bashing I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...

The Catholic church has certainly brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in the last decade or so haven't they? Lots of hypocritical behavior and mixed messages.

I still identify with Catholicism in some way, and there's a lot to it that's very beautiful and positive, but there was also a lot of guilt and stress. Going through Sunday school, first communion, and confirmation isn't a picnic. Confession at age 8 is a bit scary and really unnecessary! Saying countless Hail Marys and Our Fathers to forgive your sins, the threat of purgatory, an angry God...that's a lot to deal with at that age. Then the guilt follows you through to adulthood. I sure can't get rid of it. And then only to find out that when their very own priests are committing horrible acts against children instead of a proper punishment, they cover it up! What kind of message is that??

Overall, I didn't have that many bad experiences considering other Catholics I've spoken to. Mostly those who attended Catholic school. My mom wouldn't send me because she was terrorized and even beaten by the nuns! And this story isn't exclusive to her that's for sure. So yeah, there may be a lot of anger there amongst Catholics and ex-Catholics alike, but most of us/them stay with it for some reason.

I think if you went through the experience, you have the right to talk about it. Positive or negative. That's not intolerance. Not by a long shot.
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slick rick

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2008, 01:09:55 AM »

i would suffice to say all religons have practiced genocide in one form or another...all are guilty....all will pay!!
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2008, 05:36:49 AM »

Meaningless is right AZ. Ever thought that this could be a pre-cursor to a sainthood in the future? Bets on how many years? lol......Just a daydream ponder.
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Penny Lane

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2008, 02:29:18 PM »

Author: The Beatles were a 'spiritual force'

(CNN) -- When John Lennon remarked in 1966 that the Beatles were then "more popular than Jesus" his comments prompted outrage in the United States. But this weekend the Vatican's newspaper paid tribute to the band on the 40th anniversary of the release of the "White Album" in an article interpreted by some as a papal pardon for Lennon.

CNN's Alessio Vinci spoke to Steve Turner, author "The Gospel According To The Beatles," about the controversy that helped to end the Beatles' touring career.

Q: Was Lennon surprised by the storm his comment generated?

A: I think John Lennon was surprised because it had been said in a casual way to a journalist who was a personal friend of his and he had no idea it would cause that sort of controversy. When it did happen he was actually quite frightened because they were about to go off on tour and there were these threats to their lives and a clairvoyant made some predictions that their plane would crash. It was really quite frightening and they wanted to cancel the tour but they knew they couldn't. They were under obligation to the tour promoters. And when he made his apology in Chicago, (the band's) press officer told me that John was actually in tears before he went in to make the apology.

Q: Was his apology sincere?

A: His apology was very carefully worded. He never said "I didn't mean that;" he kind of said, "if it was taken that way, that's not what I meant," but he never actually retracted it. The reason it happened that way, in America particularly, is that people thought the Beatles were getting too big, too proud and it was a way of putting them down and I think people grabbed that opportunity.

Q: Did they care at all what the Vatican newspaper had to say at the time?

A: I don't know that the Beatles had any particular concern about what the Vatican said. I know the Vatican did say something at the time. But by that time, everybody was pitching in with their opinion, and it just kind of gathered pace.

Q: If he were alive, what would he say about his "rehabilitation?"

A: It's very hard to say what John Lennon would say now if he knew that the pope had forgiven him or the Catholic Church had forgiven him because on the one hand he wrote to an American evangelist called Oral Roberts and said he had been very sorry. But in a book he said he was very glad that it had happened because it effectively ended the Beatles. Because that tour was so bad that it became the last tour the Beatles ever did. So he thought, "Thank you Jesus for causing this to happen -- because you gave me a solo career."

Q: How spiritual were the Beatles?

A: The Beatles started out as atheists and agnostics and I think as everybody knows they became more interested in spiritual things. They went out to India in 1968 and I think in a way the Beatles became a spiritual force themselves. And I think that John actually saw that. He saw Christianity and rock 'n' roll as competitors. Only three years later, after 1966, you had the Woodstock festival and you get rock music almost performing a religious function. So I think in a way he was aware of what was happening. The Beatles were almost becoming a religion and exerting a spiritual force over people.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/11/25/pope.beatles/index.html
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alexis

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2008, 04:44:51 PM »

Quote from: 216

The Catholic church has certainly brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in the last decade or so haven't they? Lots of hypocritical behavior and mixed messages.

I still identify with Catholicism in some way, and there's a lot to it that's very beautiful and positive, but there was also a lot of guilt and stress. Going through Sunday school, first communion, and confirmation isn't a picnic. Confession at age 8 is a bit scary and really unnecessary! Saying countless Hail Marys and Our Fathers to forgive your sins, the threat of purgatory, an angry God...that's a lot to deal with at that age. Then the guilt follows you through to adulthood. I sure can't get rid of it. And then only to find out that when their very own priests are committing horrible acts against children instead of a proper punishment, they cover it up! What kind of message is that??

Overall, I didn't have that many bad experiences considering other Catholics I've spoken to. Mostly those who attended Catholic school. My mom wouldn't send me because she was terrorized and even beaten by the nuns! And this story isn't exclusive to her that's for sure. So yeah, there may be a lot of anger there amongst Catholics and ex-Catholics alike, but most of us/them stay with it for some reason.

I think if you went through the experience, you have the right to talk about it. Positive or negative. That's not intolerance. Not by a long shot.

Agree, of course. It just stuck out to me that some of the comments in the above posts seem to me to be very attacking, indistinguishable in tone to me from some of the very same Church behaviors they are incensed about.  Not sure that the comments that stick in my mind are from those who say they are raised Catholic, vs. just from posters with strong anti-Catholic/anti-religious feelings for other reasons.

Just to make the point unambiguosly, I agree with you 100% - "you have the right to talk about it" ... even in my mind whether you went through the experience, or not (like me!).

Thanks -

Addendum: Is this some weird cosmic ironic coincidence or what ... there is an advert banner above right now for "Catholic Mates ... see who is right for you!". Too weird ...
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Geoff

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Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2008, 06:42:07 PM »

Quote from: 568
I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...

I think you're confusing intolerance with ridicule. The Church strapped a huge bull's eye on their collective butt with this one, and not surprisingly people are throwing things at it.  :)
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