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Author Topic: Israel vs The Rest  (Read 9880 times)

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Kevin

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #100 on: January 17, 2009, 11:39:29 AM »

Hi Blackmath. Do you want to do a similar graph showing number of westerners killed v iraqi/afghans in the War On Terror? The picture will be no more even or pretty. How are we less guilty than the Isrealis? (or the Russians in Chechna, the Chinese in Tibet, the Indians in Kashmir.....). I'm not saying killing civilians (I'll hold out on calling everyone not in uniform "innocent") is good, just that everyone does it if it is deemed necessary, and it is unfair to pick out the Isrealis as animals. My dad was part of an organisation that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, deliberately. He was a nice guy.
As a Turk you have a natural abhorence for the PKK. I understand that. But isn't that exactly how Isreal view Hamas? (branded a terroist organisation by many nations). One man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. What would Turkey do if the PKK launched rocket attacks (over a period of years) from built up areas?
I'm no friend of Isreal. But the world is not divided into black and white or right and wrong.
And sorry, normal people do care about race (right or wrong), and your claim that Isreal is killing for fun is just ridiculously preposterous, and denying the Armenian genocide doesn't mean this didn't happen. By your standards your great/grandad was an animal. Surely not, no more than my dad was.
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2009, 11:41:43 AM »

Quote from: 568

This (bombing of the UN) was unavoidable, and entirely predictable.

1) Rockets launched by Hamas from civilian areas into Israeli civilian areas.
2) Israel bombs these civilian areas to rid themselves of the rockets.
3) UN building in civilian area.
4) Error in bomb targeting by Israelis, UN building hit.

Sad that it happened? Yes, very. Surprised? Not in the least. This will continue until people move their war activities out of the civilian areas.

 :B

Thanks for the info Alexis but it's more reason for intervention imo. Israelie weapons are the West's hand me downs. Not surprised they didn't hit the target. If UN forces were in there, surely they could also help prevent rockets being fired from the area. (Specifically UN buildings and civilian shelters.)
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Kevin

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2009, 11:48:44 AM »

Quote from: 15

Thanks for the info Alexis but it's more reason for intervention imo. Israelie weapons are the West's hand me downs. Not surprised they didn't hit the target. If UN forces were in there, surely they could also prevent rockets being fired from the area. (Specifically UN buildings and civilian shelters.)

Difficult though isn't it. I think Hamas would see UN forces as an Isreali occupation by proxy. And the UN, unless the troops come from somewhere with a decent military (ie US/UK) are notoriously ineffective. (Pakistani or Nigerian troops anyone?) Plus the UN has a policy of keeping peace, not making it (Korea saw to that.)
Idon't know the answer. Maybe there isn't one.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2009, 12:27:22 PM »

Hi Kevin, I always enjoy your explanations and I agree, of course it is difficult but in today's big-brother society, with the the fact that more people (through the internet) are aware in greater detail than ever previous in history, would make a rational person think that there is more hope now than there was ever before to form a lasting solution.

Yes UN does need a shake-up but we all know why that won't happen. 70 odd vetoes shows why. lol


It's an age old problem that if solved could really restore some stability to the region, heaven forbid it might even set an example of modern thinking. I blame the BBC for my anger as they are perceived to be the most balanced of news and all I see are Palestinians suffering and Israel parading their military superiority with an assured arrogance.

To quote Egypt's (Trying to broker a peace agreement) foreign minister just today, "Israel are the main obstacle for a ceasefire in the region."

Israel always bring up these Hamas tactics endangering their people but if they just agree to a ceasefire for now and let either Hamas upkeep a ceasefire or show that they are incapable, then they would at least be more justified. Israel have ignored world pleas to stop. The main issue for the public outrage is the weight of retaliation....Some heavy artillery.

As Mr. Moondog said, it has always been Israel that refuse to acknowledge Palestinians, not the other way round...That alone speaks volumes.



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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2009, 02:13:48 PM »

Quote from: 15
Hi Kevin, I always enjoy your explanations and I agree, of course it is difficult but in today's big-brother society, with the the fact that more people (through the internet) are aware in greater detail than ever previous in history, would make a rational person think that there is more hope now than there was ever before to form a lasting solution.

Yes UN does need a shake-up but we all know why that won't happen. 70 odd vetoes shows why. lol


It's an age old problem that if solved could really restore some stability to the region, heaven forbid it might even set an example of modern thinking. I blame the BBC for my anger as they are perceived to be the most balanced of news and all I see are Palestinians suffering and Israel parading their military superiority with an assured arrogance.

To quote Egypt's (Trying to broker a peace agreement) foreign minister just today, "Israel are the main obstacle for a ceasefire in the region."

Israel always bring up these Hamas tactics endangering their people but if they just agree to a ceasefire for now and let either Hamas upkeep a ceasefire or show that they are incapable, then they would at least be more justified.
Israel have ignored world pleas to stop. The main issue for the public outrage is the weight of retaliation....Some heavy artillery.

As Mr. Moondog said, it has always been Israel that refuse to acknowledge Palestinians, not the other way round...That alone speaks volumes.







Hi Apple Beatle -

I share your hope, I also believe that the internet will one day be a key component of changing how governments "rule" their people. Maybe dreamy John was right when he wrote Imagine (politically at least  ;) )

Here's the latest in a series of what I consider to be slightly Israeli-tilted articles in the NY Times. A couple of things stood out in my mind. The first is that it doesn't seem as simple as if Israel would just declare a cease-fire, all would be well. Declare a cease-fire with whom? Hamas Gaza that says maybe they'll do a peace agreement, maybe not? Hamas leadership at that  Qatar rally that said they will never have a cease fire? No matter how much we wish there would be a cease-fire there, it's hard to negotiate under these circumstances.

The second thing that caught my eye was the J_Moondog phrase you quoted. I think Hamas has sworn to not recognize Israel. Since the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have elected Hamas as their government, it might reasonably be said therefore that the Palestinians don't either. So, maybe the "I'll pretend you don't exist" game isn't as one-sided as some might say.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts and comments. I agree with you about people rising up and demanding peace, but "...You could say that I'm a dreamer ...".


*****************************************************************************************************
January 17, 2009 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/world/middleeast/17mideast.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print
Israeli Cabinet Appears Ready to Declare a Gaza Cease-Fire
By ETHAN BRONNER and MARK LANDLER

JERUSALEM
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Alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2009, 03:19:31 PM »

Thanks Alexis, all read and digested. Too drained to comment right now tho I'll raise a glass to safeness for families and innocents.. ;)
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blackmath

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2009, 05:43:01 PM »

"just that everyone does it if it is deemed necessary"
Is it really necessary? That's the real question.

"As a Turk you have a natural abhorence for the PKK. I understand that. But isn't that exactly how Isreal view Hamas"
No, nothing like it. Turkish soldiers don't kill kurds randomly, just because they live in a certain place. They don't bomb hospitals nor the schools. A lot of Kurds live in Turkey and in peace. Just because PKK exists doesn't mean that our soldiers would kill innocent people. PKK kills our soldiers. Our soldiers kill them. Sad, really sad. But at least no civilians die. And no kids are involved. And BTW, Palestinians have every right to live there in peace because it used to be their country. They were kicked out of their homes. They've been forced to live in a small small area named Gaza and still can't be in peace.

"And sorry, normal people do care about race (right or wrong)"
Which means your normal and my normal are different.

"and your claim that Isreal is killing for fun is just ridiculously preposterous"
What are they doing then? Why are they killing innocent people who can defend themselves only by throwing stones, if they haven't lost their hands of course?

"and denying the Armenian genocide doesn't mean this didn't happen."
And it doesn't mean that it happened. We deny it. They say it happened. What I want to know is how you can be so sure that it happened?

"By your standards your great/grandad was an animal. Surely not, no more than my dad was."
My grandad didn't kill a civilian, that I'm sure of.

This has to stop somewhere BTW. I really am bored with this.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2009, 09:04:11 PM »

Ceasefire! At last! I thank all for contributions, I stand a bit wiser on the matter, I hope they can.
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2009, 01:42:13 AM »

Quote from: 15
Ceasefire! At last! I thank all for contributions, I stand a bit wiser on the matter, I hope they can.


Ceasefire? Alas! It doesn't look like it was meant to be ... Israel apparently declaring a unilateral cease-fire, Hamas saying it will "fight" on until the last Israeli troop leaves, the blockades are lifted, and the crossings are open. ("Fight" in quotes here because, although this is apparently how war is waged now, I just can't get my mind around the concept of shooting missiles into civilian-populated areas as "fighting").

But I will raise a glass too, Apple Beatle, to peace, and because I can use a drink right about now!
***************************************************************************************************

The New York Times  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/world/middleeast/18mideast.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

January 18, 2009
Israel Declares Cease-Fire; Hamas Says It Will Fight On
By STEVEN ERLANGER

JERUSALEM
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2009, 04:18:21 AM »

I thought of a quote from Bob Dylan: "Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head; This world is ruled by violence, But I guess that's better left unsaid."
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2009, 04:57:26 AM »

Quote from: 9
I thought of a quote from Bob Dylan: "Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head; This world is ruled by violence, But I guess that's better left unsaid."

Monday being Martin Luther King, Jr. day here in the States, I will counter with another quote: "I have a dream ..."
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2009, 12:56:53 PM »

Nice quotes gents.....we grow up with so much hope, then the penny drops....then you hope some more for the children.
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Sondra

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2009, 07:53:17 PM »

Quote from: 568

Monday being Martin Luther King, Jr. day here in the States, I will counter with another quote: "I have a dream ..."

How about:

"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

Or simply:

"Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective."
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2009, 10:34:07 PM »

Quote from: 216

How about:

"Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

Or simply:

"Our loyalties must transcend our race, our tribe, our class, and our nation; and this means we must develop a world perspective."

Nice ones. Are they also MLK, Jr.? I wouldn't be surprised if the first one was MLK, Ghandi, John Lennon if he hadn't taken acid.
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2009, 01:09:13 AM »

Quote from: 568

Nice ones. Are they also MLK, Jr.? I wouldn't be surprised if the first one was MLK, Ghandi, John Lennon if he hadn't taken acid.

They're both Martin's. But Gandhi was a big hero of his, so I'm sure a lot of what he spoke about was directly inspired by him.
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2009, 08:09:26 PM »

Editorial by, of all people, Mohammar Quadafi, today's NY Times.



*******************************************************************************
The New York Times  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/opinion/22qaddafi.html?em

January 22, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor
The One-State Solution
By MUAMMAR QADDAFI

Tripoli, Libya

THE shocking level of the last wave of Israeli-Palestinian violence, which ended with this weekend
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #116 on: January 23, 2009, 02:43:27 AM »

A truly democratic Isratine would quickly become a Palestinian state because of the burgeoning Palestinian population growth compared to the Israeli.  I think Qaddafi is calling Israel's bluff that it is a truly democratic state.  I like what he has to say about the extremists--he tried to accommodate them and got burned.  

I'm sure an Israeli would say they'd be glad to form Isratine the day Libya becomes a truly democratic nation.
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Kevin

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #117 on: February 17, 2009, 10:51:28 AM »

There was a news item the other day about a dramatic inctrease in anti-semitism here in the UK. (one attack and loads of grafitti). The grafitti that got the most attention read "Jihad 4 Israel." This bugs me, and the press shouldn't fall for it. Condemning protest against the actions of the Isreali government as being anti-semetic does no one any favours.
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alexis

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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2009, 07:02:44 PM »

Quote from: 185
There was a news item the other day about a dramatic inctrease in anti-semitism here in the UK. (one attack and loads of grafitti). The grafitti that got the most attention read "Jihad 4 Israel." This bugs me, and the press shouldn't fall for it. Condemning protest against the actions of the Isreali government as being anti-semetic does no one any favours.

You know, this is very true, but it made me think about a viewpoint I've heard recently, relating to politics here in the States, that might be applicable here.

The question here was, why did it take economic and political Armageddon for a Democrat to get elected here? Surely any reasonable discourse would show that the Republicans are devoid of any governing policy except to make the rich richer, at the expense of all else (including the survival of the middle class).

So this guy points out that the answer to the question is in the fact that it was even asked. WTF does that mean?????? Well, what he was saying is that while Democrats are sitting around searching for reasonable policies that can be justified with clear headed analysis of the data, the Republicans are out stirring up tribal hatred to get votes. So, in the extreme, you have some egghead Democratic policy wonk on TV saying something like "And so, in the final analysis, though there are merits to the opposing point of view, we feel that this course of action should be pursued instead ... on a trial basis of course, with revision and modification as may become necessary".

And on the other channel, the studly (or leggy) Republican is saying - "You know why life sucks? Because THEY did this to you! Yes, the liberal elites that want to take YOUR hard-earned money and give it to welfare queens and illegal immigrants!! Wasn't life better when you were growing up? Vote for US, let's get rid of THEM, and everything will be good again!!!".

And so there's no way level-headed policy analysis can compete with rabble rousing.

So, yes, you're right that it's not justifiable to tar those who want to have a reasonable discussion about Israel's faults with the brush of antisemitism. But while one side slaps itself honorably for not playing according to the Rules of Hoyle, the other side is building pipe bombs to blow up airports and subways with.

Who's going to win that one?
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Re: Israel vs The Rest
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2010, 09:16:32 AM »

it looks as if the us are coming to their senses as well
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