Meet people from all over the World
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13

Author Topic: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent  (Read 48238 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2009, 11:10:09 AM »

^ You wizard of words you! ha2ha
Logged
Sheet Music Plus Homepage

Kevin

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5543
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2009, 09:21:24 AM »

The topic is 'Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent'...
so, I reckon...  McCartney is a great, but limited, songwriter...  whereas Lennon covers all bases.

Yoiks:
I Saw Her Standing There
And I Love Her
Yesterday
Paperback Writer
Eleanor Rigby
For No One
Got To Get You Into My life
When I'm Sixty Four
She's Leaving Home
Hey Jude
Blackbird.
Helter Skelter
An Ivor Novello for soundtrack work.
Award winning #2 classical album
His electronic Fireman albums


Commercial? Yes. But limited? I have never heard Macca described as such, even by those that loath him. The evidence showsthat he can turn his hand to almost any genre and come up with a masterpiece. He is accepted as a consumate, professional songwriter - which sometimes works to his disadvantage in the popularity stakes. It certainly didn't help him in the street cred race, which if it was the topic in discussion Lennon would win hands down. (this is why I disliked McCartney/Wings in the 70's. They were as cool as your mum cutting your hair)
McCartney has his faults, but limited? Sorry mate - you've lost me now. I had you pegged for someone who was reasonably objective. His range of songwriting talent isn't an opinion - it's there as hard evidence. Though of course whether you like it or not is up to you. But that's not what we're discussing.
I'm sorry, but it's the same as your supposition that the Brits stoppped buying Lennon's music because he was too political, when a quick glimpse at the charts shows that they parred (even birdied) the US in that period. It was Mind Games et al that didn't turn them on.
You dissapoint me sir.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 11:44:17 AM by Kevin »
Logged
don't follow leaders

tkitna

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8620
  • I'm a Moondog,,,,,are you?
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2009, 06:09:52 PM »

The topic is 'Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent'...
so, I reckon...  McCartney is a great, but limited, songwriter...  whereas Lennon covers all bases.

If you consider Paul limited, can I ask you what all these bases are that Johns supposed to have covered?

Joost

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2009, 08:21:32 AM »

But McCartney has never been anything other than an 'Entertainer'...  a 'Song & Dance Man'... a 'Showman'. McCartney's always been content with that... he's never pretentiously staked any claims to have been a key mover-and-shaker in major political issues such as the Vietnam war..

So John stayed in bed in his five-star hotel for two weeks and wrote a couple of anti-war songs - big deal. I think he was just a bored rock star looking for a new hobby. It's certainly not like he was out there climbing the barricades while Paul was at home writing show tunes... Even though that seems to be what some people would like to believe.

And Paul has a history of activism too. He's been an advocate for Adopt-A-Minefield, Make Poverty History and a campaign against seal hunting and has been one of the world's most prominent vegetarians and animal rights activists for decades. And concerning protest songs, how about 'Give Ireland Back To The Irish'?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 09:02:41 AM by Joost »
Logged

Joost

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2009, 09:39:14 AM »

John Lennon, not Paul McCartney will go down in history as a legendary peace activist.

I think that's quite an insult to the likes of Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King. John Lennon joined some protests because it was the trendy thing to do at the time and he wrote a catchy anti-war song or two. Hardly serious activism if you ask me.
Logged

The Swine

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 728
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2009, 09:50:25 AM »

you forget to mention he sat in a bag
Logged
THE INTERNET IS NOT A PLACE FOR 13 YEAR OLDS

Joost

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2009, 10:44:56 AM »

Coz he had too much influence it was makin Nixon nervous !!!

He made the CIA nervous because he was an influencial person that said things they didn't like. That doesn't automatically make him a "legendary peace activist".
Logged

Joost

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2009, 10:47:09 AM »

And of course, McCartney was still loyally pumping out his 'catchy' music just like a British Beatle is supposed to do.

Funny how you're making something that has brought a lot of joy to millions of people sound like a bad thing...
Logged

eroz0

  • A Beginning
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 57
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2009, 10:53:51 AM »

Just out of curiosity, what does any of this have to do with who is the better musician?
Logged

cassNJ

  • One And One Is Two
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2009, 11:26:48 AM »

I've been reading this forum for awhile, and now I feel like I must jump in here and put my 2 cents' worth in. 

I thought this was a pretty well-balanced thread, without the usual bashing, until the last couple of pages where certain people felt the only way they could make a case for Lennon being the superior musician was to belittle McCartney. 

I'm of the belief that they were both amazing songwriters and musicians (I don't consider those 2 things to be the same, but it seems like everyone else in the thread does, so ok).  Of course many people are going to prefer John's music over Paul's.  That case can be made without having to resort to the "Paul McCartney = Englebert Humperdinck" argument that John used in his more unkind post-Beatles days.   He did retract most of the criticism he made about his partner, but it seems some of his fans still feel obligated to continue it.

Also, since John WAS very politically active for a few years, and used his music to promote those activities, it's hard to separate his political life from his musical one.  But using the political element as a measure of the quality of one's music seems misguided.  As someone pointed out pages ago, if you like political music, then it's a plus.  It really has nothing to do with "quality" though.

I was around during the 60's.  Pretty young but old enough to see alot of the impact The Beatles had on people at the time.  I remember when Double Fantasy came out most people were "meh" about it.  Then he was killed about a month later and suddenly it was a work of genius.  It aggravated me at the time, not because of the sudden John worship, but because his big hit, "Starting Over" sounded just like a Beach Boy's song, "Don't Worry Baby."  I wonder if he hadn't died, whether he would have ended up being sued for plagiarism.  What bothers me about this whole thing it is how people let things cloud their judgement.  You can continue keeping Lennon on his pedestal, but don't reshape facts to justify his being there.  Personally I think both he and Paul belong on pedestals.   
Logged

An Apple Beatle

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5635
  • Be yourself, no matter what they say.
    • The studio
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2009, 11:45:11 AM »

Nice one Cass....welcome. :)
Logged
http://www.4sitemusic.com
USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION ON THIS FORUM! CLICK HERE!

Kevin

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5543
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2009, 11:59:10 AM »

Also, since John WAS very politically active for a few years, and used his music to promote those activities, it's hard to separate his political life from his musical one.  But using the political element as a measure of the quality of one's music seems misguided.  As someone pointed out pages ago, if you like political music, then it's a plus.  It really has nothing to do with "quality" though.


Hi cassNj. Are you a woman? If so, please marry me. If not, I'm happy to dress up.
Logged
don't follow leaders

Joost

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 5121
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2009, 12:33:37 PM »

Are you a woman? If so, please marry me. If not, I'm happy to dress up.

Way to make the newbie feel comfortable here...  ;)
Logged

cassNJ

  • One And One Is Two
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2009, 12:50:58 PM »

Wow, first post and I'm getting marriage proposals!   Why did it take me so long?

I wanted to say some additional stuff in my first post, but I thought I shouldn't get too wordy, being a newbie and all that.  I was a pretty big Beatles fan during the 60's (after getting over the disgust of seeing my older female cousins go batty for them).   I admit I fell for Paul, although I'd like to point out that I played guitar back then, and really fell in love with his music on Rubber Soul (the American one).  By the 70's, I was listening to different music altogether and didn't pay much mind to The Beatles.  Besides, Paul went off and married somebody else.  Sigh.  It  wasn't until the last few years that I rediscovered them.  That's what's so good about them.   They are so ingrained in our culture that we can take them for granted, but it's always nice to come back to them.  Anyway, I still found myself gravitating more toward Paul's songs but it's just a matter of personal taste, not that I think he was the superior songwriter.  I just wanted to point that out in case my first post sounded a bit anti-John/pro-Paul.  It wasn't meant to be.  I think that the work they did together will never be matched. 

Since this is supposed to be a thread about musicianship though, I'd have to say that I think Paul wins hands down, and I have plenty of people like George Martin and Geoff Emerick to back me up on that.  As for their songwriting (which as I said before is a different subject, in my opinion), I think it's much more difficult to say who was better because they influenced each other so much that even "John's" songs had a touch of Paul in them and vice versa.  They made each other better songwriters. 

And not to antagonize the George Harrison fans, but I have to agree with George Martin on this also; after John and Paul, everybody else was an also-ran.
Logged

BlueMeanie

  • Guest
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2009, 04:33:44 PM »

I'm happy to dress up.

You bloody Kiwi's, I always had my suspicions!
Logged

tkitna

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8620
  • I'm a Moondog,,,,,are you?
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2009, 07:22:10 PM »

Just out of curiosity, what does any of this have to do with who is the better musician?

Thank You. At last, somebody said it.

Just because John wrote some protest songs about war and a few tunes about peace, he's the better musician?

cassNJ

  • One And One Is Two
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 49
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2009, 01:46:54 AM »

Well, Justin, I guess I did reply a bit selectively to your posts.  You indeed said some complimentary things about Paul as a songwriter, but then you also said things like this:

"Like.. first of all, McCartney writes a tune that's both catchy and pleasant to the senses... then, Martin/Whoever might decide to dub in a million violins, then hire the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to sing backup. Then, when all 5,700 tracks are filled up with every instument on the planet, including the added sound effects of barking dogs and the clanging of garbage can lids, then comes the big decision... Is the song overproduced enough?

McCartney never quite got over Sergent Pepper, but Lennon went on to write stuff that tore his heart out... like 'Mother'. Chart ratings, and fodder for the masses, are not everyone's gauge of a 'masterpiece'."

Sounds like you want to give the impression of objectivity, but your bias shows badly in a lot of your posts.  I was curious to know, however, what you meant by "McCartney never quite got over Sgt Pepper..."  By the way, if you actually checked out some of Paul's solo work, you would find that they weren't all "fodder for the masses."

All of The Beatles, including Lennon, wanted to have commercial success, because that meant money for all of them.  Why do you think the others wouldn't let McCartney out of the partnership?  If he was such a bane on their existence, it seems they would have jumped at the opportunity to get rid of him. They already had a replacement bass player lined up: Klaus Voormann.  But they were smart enough to know that McCartney's contributions had earned them a lot of money.  My only point of mentioning that is to show that being an artist and being commercially successful are not mutually exclusive concepts.   Both Lennon and McCartney were capable of writing "stuff that tore their hearts out" and stuff that was much more commercial and lightweight.  I consider Lennon a fantastic songwriter, but he wrote some of the silliest lyrics in The Beatles' catalog.  Consider the song "Because."  A gorgeous song, because of the arrangement and the 9-part harmony.  But if you think about the words, well, I'll put it this way: if McCartney had written lyrics like "because the world is round it turns me on" he would have been raked over the coals for it.   Also, when you criticized McCartney as being a "limited" songwriter, I found that a stunning criticism.  Just in his career as a Beatle, he wrote in so many genres: rock 'n roll, ballads, folk, jazz-influenced, music hall, etc.  Lennon of course, was just as versatile, although their tastes did not always overlap. 

Lennon's work stands up on its own.  It's not necessary to (and I'll use the word again) belittle McCartney's work in order to make your case.  That's a sign of insecurity, and Lennon was far too talented to need that kind of defense.    If you're as  big a fan of his as you appear to be, you're probably aware that he himself was very insecure, about his voice and about how Paul's music was more commercially successful than his.  But his fans don't need to be that way.
Logged

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2009, 06:47:51 AM »

Its seems you're making a better first impression than I.  :(

Just because you have a different opinion? As long as there's no personal attacks or whatsoever, I think it is a fine discussion.

Now, carry on lads. ha2ha
Logged

Bobber

  • Guest
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2009, 07:05:20 AM »

Do I detect a subtle note of administrator irony there Bobber?  lol  ha2ha

Let me put it this way: the first impression you're making is that of a tough but fair debater with a firm opinion and a lot to learn. ha2ha !
Logged

eroz0

  • A Beginning
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 57
Re: Rating the Beatles by Musical Talent
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2009, 07:46:31 AM »

I'm just responding to replies to my original message.

But you were the one that brought up John's activism.  When people asked you why you consider McCartney limited while Lennon "covered all the bases", you used his involvement in the peace movement to prove Lennon's superiority. I just think it's irrelevant to the discussion.

If we are going to rate their musical talent then we should consider only the following:

- Instrument playing
  Paul wins this one hands down, IMHO. He's the only one of the Beatles that is consistently included in lists of the greatest/most influential players in his main instrument. He's also a very good guitar player, good piano player and drummer.

- Voice
  Whose voice you like better is subjective, of course, but Paul had greater range and versatility than the other Beatles. 

- Song writing
  I think John and Paul are equally good. IMO, they are the two best songwriters of popular music. Especially, when they were working together. Both produced great work in their solo careers, but they didn't manage to equal their Beatles work. Again, who you like better is subjective, but there's no reason to belittle one of them in order to elevate your favourite.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13
 

Page created in 1.22 seconds with 74 queries.