A treasury and a place to meet people of all ages with various interests from all over the World
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

PLEASE READ OUR FORUM RULES HERE

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins  (Read 4418 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2013, 01:09:51 PM »

I should add that I don't think Something and Here Comes the Sun are just popular. I think they are truly great songs. And clearly they'd be Exhibit 1 and 2 in the case for George's musical longevity. In his solo career only My Sweet Lord would come close.
Logged
GEMM is your best source for impossible-to-find !

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2013, 01:15:39 PM »

That's some pretty harsh views on their solo careers. I'd certainly agree they were inconsistent. But I think each had their solo merits. While George might not reach the popular acclaim heights of Something and Here Comes the Sun, I do think he had some great moments in his solo career. A little too few and far between perhaps but they were there. It's harder to argue that John and Paul ever reached their Beatle heights. Cos they were pretty amazingly high heights. But it doesn't mean to me at least that there wasnt some interesting songwriting and performances going on.

The point is, at least in my opinion, that their solo careers didn't even reach the heights of lots of other 1960's bands. The air of the times was also an influence.
Logged
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2013, 08:45:21 PM »

The point is, at least in my opinion, that their solo careers didn't even reach the heights of lots of other 1960's bands. The air of the times was also an influence.

Yes that's a fair assessment. I like a lot of the post Beatle work. I have pretty long playlists of songs I enjoy from them. But I don't consider it singular work amongst its peers like I do most of the Beatle stuff. It's just another category of music that competes with all the other stuff I listen to.
Logged

Kangaroo Kev

  • Global Moderator
  • A Thousand Pages
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3251
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2013, 01:04:15 AM »

That's some pretty harsh views on their solo careers. I'd certainly agree they were inconsistent. But I think each had their solo merits. While George might not reach the popular acclaim heights of Something and Here Comes the Sun, I do think he had some great moments in his solo career. A little too few and far between perhaps but they were there. It's harder to argue that John and Paul ever reached their Beatle heights. Cos they were pretty amazingly high heights. But it doesn't mean to me at least that there wasnt some interesting songwriting and performances going on.

the odd decent song yeah but on the whole poor..................... interesting songwriting ? you could say that about a thousand songwriters over the years, collectively they were gods, individually they were average at best.
Logged
"I have always thought in the back of my mind.... cheese & onion...."

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2013, 01:43:30 AM »

the odd decent song yeah but on the whole poor..................... interesting songwriting ? you could say that about a thousand songwriters over the years, collectively they were gods, individually they were average at best.

It does almost seem The Beatles were created to give the prime example of "greater than the sum of their parts".

It is interesting just how good they were together compared to later (and I agree it's unarguable that the Beatle stuff was well, well above their solo careers).  It brings to mind the comments by Clapton in the Scorcese film on George that the chemistry between them was almost a little eerie. I recall he mentioned they moved almost as a single unit.



Logged

Kangaroo Kev

  • Global Moderator
  • A Thousand Pages
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3251
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2013, 01:58:52 AM »

It does almost seem The Beatles were created to give the prime example of "greater than the sum of their parts".

It is interesting just how good they were together compared to later (and I agree it's unarguable that the Beatle stuff was well, well above their solo careers).  It brings to mind the comments by Clapton in the Scorcese film on George that the chemistry between them was almost a little eerie. I recall he mentioned they moved almost as a single unit.





Yes mate, there was a chemistry, Clapton saw it

I remember someone else (I cant remember who) said he was in a room with all 4 of them and it was like this weird aura
Logged
"I have always thought in the back of my mind.... cheese & onion...."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11091
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2013, 02:05:02 AM »

I remember someone else (I cant remember who) said he was in a room with all 4 of them and it was like this weird aura

Peter Fonda?    ;D
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2013, 02:14:56 AM »

Peter Fonda?    ;D

 I'm sure Pete was seeing auras on everything at that particular life stage.

Logged

Kangaroo Kev

  • Global Moderator
  • A Thousand Pages
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3251
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2013, 08:03:55 AM »

Peter Fonda?    ;D

no not him Baz, maybe Billy Preston, Im not sure, anyway the aura was wrecked the minute Yuko walked in :(
Logged
"I have always thought in the back of my mind.... cheese & onion...."

Snoopy66

  • A Beginning
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 155
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2013, 07:16:37 PM »

Your right snoopy, collectively the fabs were monumentally fantastic, the best best in the world by miles, STELLAR.........even their poorer albums were triumphs, as solo artists they were ordinary, crappy, boring and completely uninteresting, even Johns best LP Imagine was average at best. And as for Paul, just catchy chart obsessed teen girly nonsense (he had no-one to tell him no anymore), Georges stuff was preachy self obsessed and droning and Ringo well, he's just Ringo, singing cast offs from the others.
Well, I wouldn't be so harsh and describe the ex-Beatles solo works as "crappy and boring". This would be unfair since all four had some interesting stuff (Band on the Run, Imagine, Material world), even if the level isn't above average. Still, do find a separated group in which their members all had some success on their own.

Interesting, that you call George's stuff "preachy self-obsessed", is that really so ? I'm not so into his solo-stuff, so I can't judge it. I'm more used to hear that John was self-obsessed...  ;D

Snoopy
Logged

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2013, 09:33:25 PM »


Interesting, that you call George's stuff "preachy self-obsessed", is that really so ? I'm not so into his solo-stuff, so I can't judge it. I'm more used to hear that John was self-obsessed...  ;D

Snoopy

I think George became the classic singer-songwriter. Which is practically synonymous with preachy and self-obsessed.  ;)

George was by all accounts a funny and engaging guy. It's probably his greatest deficiency as a songwriter that he so rarely showed that side in his music.

Logged

Kangaroo Kev

  • Global Moderator
  • A Thousand Pages
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3251
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2013, 10:53:03 PM »

Well, I wouldn't be so harsh and describe the ex-Beatles solo works as "crappy and boring". This would be unfair since all four had some interesting stuff (Band on the Run, Imagine, Material world), even if the level isn't above average. Still, do find a separated group in which their members all had some success on their own.

Interesting, that you call George's stuff "preachy self-obsessed", is that really so ? I'm not so into his solo-stuff, so I can't judge it. I'm more used to hear that John was self-obsessed...  ;D

Snoopy

On the whole (imo of course) it is in the main crappy and boring , theres the odd good song of course, but I never play any of it, I never thought Imagine or Band On The Run were great albums, however,  if you like the solo stuff then good for you, its all subjective, Im just giving my opinion on it, Ive said it before, Im a huge Beatle fan but not a fan of their solo stuff, there was much much better music on offer in the 70's ...........Its my opinion also, and has been for years, that Johns persona was wrecked by acid/dope/heroin/booze, as was Hendrix, Brian Jones,  Syd Barrett and Peter Green, he lost interest really in the later Beatle years and became lazy and yes, self obsessed, he turned from an ambitious rocker to a self obsessed loner living in the countryside....Paul was of course a workaholic of sorts and mostly had to coax John to do the next project, Paul took over the band as we all know and became bossy (maybe he had too)

I think George became the classic singer-songwriter. Which is practically synonymous with preachy and self-obsessed.  ;)

George was by all accounts a funny and engaging guy. It's probably his greatest deficiency as a songwriter that he so rarely showed that side in his music.



that's a great point moog, Im not and never will be interested in mantras, hare Krishna, or any form of Indian music, tbh it bores me to death, that's what I meant by preachy, in that way George became self obsessed, even a bit cranky, growing very long hair and long beard, resembling a garden gnome, banging on about religion - materialism and the concreting over of the planet, meanwhile living like a Lord in a huge 70 room mansion complete with state of the art recording studio on 120 acres with other houses in LA, Australia (that I know of) and a collection of Ferraris, and exotic supercars etc etc
John was similarly going nuts with yuko, singing Imagine no possessions whilst sitting in his very own countryside mansion.

I don't have a problem with people living in mansions if they've earned the money, but I do object when they start preaching about how materialism is bad at the same time, and that we shouldn't want to live like that, in other words its ok for them but not the world as a whole.

Anyway, I digress, George actually made the best solo album, but most of its material was written whilst he was a Beatle so it doesn't really count :D

Paul just concentrated on Fluffy pop music that couldn't be taken seriously by 70's rock fans, compare his wings/solo albums to the likes of Blood On The Tracks or After The Goldrush or Tumbleweed Connection or Tea For The Tillerman, all very successful albums by serious singer songwriters, albums that were taken in a serious way as works that had something to say but also with great melodies.......Paul just went more banal and twee, with his silly seemingly meaningless lyrics and having his obviously non musical wife in the band.

Unfortunately none of the 3 of them had what it takes to carve out a career as a singer songwriting solo artist that is taken seriously like a Neil Young or a Bob Dylan, Roger Waters thought he didn't need the other Pink Floyd Guys but he has produced nothing of note since Floyd split.
The fabs needed each other, without each other they weren't fab.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 11:15:03 PM by nimrod »
Logged
"I have always thought in the back of my mind.... cheese & onion...."

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2013, 11:02:38 PM »



I don't have a problem with people living in mansions if they've earned the money, but I do object when they start preaching about how materialism is bad at the same time.


Well. You have to admit it takes some skill to be self-obsessed and yet so self-detached at the same time.
Logged

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2013, 08:24:12 PM »

Still, do find a separated group in which their members all had some success on their own.

I could mention the Byrds, though not all as solo careers, but all the original members were part of an important act after the separation. Gene Clark, the first byrd that flew from the band, certainly recorded some strong solo albums, especially his solo debut in 1967. David Crosby was essential part of the famous supergroup Crosby-Stills-Nash (& Young). Chris Hillman (along with brief time byrd Gram Parsons) was leader of the Flying Burrito Brothers, a very important band for the early development of country rock; the Byrds' original drummer Mike Clarke also joined the group later. And Roger McGuinn continued using the name of the Byrds during few more years, but since late-1968 it was a completely new project commanded by him.

If you just talk about chart success, well, only CSN&Y got high chart positions, but certainly all the Byrds' members were part of recognized acts that left a footprint in rock history. (And I guess it's always easier for an ex-beatle to get chart success beyond the quality of his music.)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 08:29:06 PM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2013, 11:22:38 PM »

I could mention the Byrds, though not all as solo careers, but all the original members were part of an important act after the separation. Gene Clark, the first byrd that flew from the band, certainly recorded some strong solo albums, especially his solo debut in 1967. David Crosby was essential part of the famous supergroup Crosby-Stills-Nash (& Young). Chris Hillman (along with brief time byrd Gram Parsons) was leader of the Flying Burrito Brothers, a very important band for the early development of country rock; the Byrds' original drummer Mike Clarke also joined the group later. And Roger McGuinn continued using the name of the Byrds during few more years, but since late-1968 it was a completely new project commanded by him.

If you just talk about chart success, well, only CSN&Y got high chart positions, but certainly all the Byrds' members were part of recognized acts that left a footprint in rock history. (And I guess it's always easier for an ex-beatle to get chart success beyond the quality of his music.)

I think chart success would see the ex Beatles streets ahead of any other major band that broke up. All four had US no 1s. Macca was the most successful act of the 70s in chart toppers (I think). George had good chart success with his first few releases and then again with his Got My Mind... cover. So if you want to take a clinical numerical approach the Ex Fabs win hands down. But as you say being an ex Beatle was worth at least a bit in garnering attention and a base level of sales. And not many of the chart toppers actually make my current ex Beatle playlists. (Photograph is the only one I think). Critical appreciation is a whole other ballpark.

I'm trying to think of any major bands with reasonably comparable situations. The Who were basically a one man songwriting show with the exception of a few John Entwistle tunes. Pete had some solo succceess but i think Entwistle's releases were more admired for quirkiness than anything. The Kinks had Dave Davies but neither he not ray did much as solo acts. I guess the Stones had some individual success during hiatuses. (Je Suis Un Rock Star anyone). The Yardbirds maybe with Clapton, Beck and then Page going in with Zep. Velvet Underground as well. Although John Cale didn't bother the Chartists much he garners critical acclaim. Dire Straits' second songwriter brother David had minor success I think.  Nirvana might have had a chance of two good post Nirvana careers if Kurt had kept himself alive long enough to break the band up. NZ band Split Enz saw Neil Finn lead Crowded House to worldwide success while his brother Tim had some solo wins.   

The Commodores, Destiny's Child, Abba?? Or am I going from the sublime to the ridiculous? 

I think I've exhausted my top of my head knowledge.




Logged

tkitna

  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6920
  • I'm a Moondog,,,,,are you?
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2013, 12:29:50 AM »

but I tend to agree with you, none of their solo careers was a triumph

What?

Of course their solo careers were triumphs. Paul and Ringo are still signed to record labels and making albums 40 years after their first. They all have had chart success and good album sales at some point and they all have written and recorded solo tunes that will probably go down as legendary in popular music terms. How can anybody say that none of them had a triumphant solo career?

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2013, 12:48:10 AM »

I think chart success would see the ex Beatles streets ahead of any other major band that broke up. All four had US no 1s. Macca was the most successful act of the 70s in chart toppers (I think). George had good chart success with his first few releases and then again with his Got My Mind... cover. So if you want to take a clinical numerical approach the Ex Fabs win hands down. But as you say being an ex Beatle was worth at least a bit in garnering attention and a base level of sales. And not many of the chart toppers actually make my current ex Beatle playlists. (Photograph is the only one I think). Critical appreciation is a whole other ballpark.

I'm trying to think of any major bands with reasonably comparable situations. The Who were basically a one man songwriting show with the exception of a few John Entwistle tunes. Pete had some solo succceess but i think Entwistle's releases were more admired for quirkiness than anything. The Kinks had Dave Davies but neither he not ray did much as solo acts. I guess the Stones had some individual success during hiatuses. (Je Suis Un Rock Star anyone). The Yardbirds maybe with Clapton, Beck and then Page going in with Zep. Velvet Underground as well. Although John Cale didn't bother the Chartists much he garners critical acclaim. Dire Straits' second songwriter brother David had minor success I think.  Nirvana might have had a chance of two good post Nirvana careers if Kurt had kept himself alive long enough to break the band up. NZ band Split Enz saw Neil Finn lead Crowded House to worldwide success while his brother Tim had some solo wins.   

The Commodores, Destiny's Child, Abba?? Or am I going from the sublime to the ridiculous? 

I think I've exhausted my top of my head knowledge.

That's why I mentioned the Byrds as probably the only band that could be compared to the Beatles in terms of post-group careers. Not on the chart issue, but on the impact on rock music.
Logged
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

Moogmodule

  • Getting Better
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 655
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2013, 12:55:33 AM »

That's why I mentioned the Byrds as probably the only band that could be compared to the Beatles in terms of post-group careers. Not on the chart issue, but on the impact on rock music.

Yep. The Byrds are looking pretty good in that respect.
Logged

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2013, 12:58:57 AM »

What?

Of course their solo careers were triumphs. Paul and Ringo are still signed to record labels and making albums 40 years after their first. They all have had chart success and good album sales at some point and they all have written and recorded solo tunes that will probably go down as legendary in popular music terms. How can anybody say that none of them had a triumphant solo career?

I should have said "artistic triumphs", even though that's a subjective appreciation. It would be fair to use the charts as an objective parameter, but then how many successful crappy artists careers would be considered a triumph? At the end of the day it all depends on each one's personal tastes; and the fabs solo careers were far from being crappy, of course, but in my opinion they weren't more interesting than minor 60's bands like the Association, Moby Grape or Quicksilver Messenger Service.
Logged
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1509
Re: Microscope: Unfinished Music #1: Two Virgins
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2013, 01:06:48 AM »

Yep. The Byrds are looking pretty good in that respect.

Another close example could be Buffalo Springfield: Stephen Stills was part of CSN; Neil Young joined them later and had a very important solo career; and Richie Furay was leader of Poco. We could add Jim Messina too (from Loggins & Messina), though he was just a part-time member of Buffalo Springfield.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 01:08:43 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
 

Page created in 2.927 seconds with 28 queries.