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Author Topic: Who's the 5th Beatle?  (Read 14368 times)

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Bill Harry

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #100 on: May 18, 2008, 08:12:07 AM »

Ye Cracke was very different then to what it is now. They got rid of that cozy little snug room with the fire where John and I used to sit and chat. They knocked down the wall where Stuart and Rod Murray painted a mural of dock cranes in exchange for free drinks. The War Room is still there, though, where Arthur Ballard used to chat to his students and often met Stu's father, who he knew. John saw the famous Liverpool film star John Gregson walking past the Cracke and asked for his autograph, but he didn't have a piece of paper, so he picked up an old discarded boot and had him sign that. John was also lying on the floor aping swimming movements and the barmaid asked him what he was doing. "I'm swimming" he said. "Well, stop it" she told him. "I can't, I'll drown" he told her.
This is where I first introduced John to Stuart. Stu was there with his best friend Rod Murray, with whom he shared a flat in Percy Street.
John and I used to sit beneath a print of 'The Death of Nelson', a painting at the Walker Art Gallery. Sailors on both sides of the dying Admiral were turning away from him and John called the painting 'Who farted?' This is where I asked John to show me his poetry, which impressed me and led to me encouraging him to write.
One night John, Stuart, Rod and I went to Liverpool University to see the poet Royston Ellis. When we went back to the Cracke we felt that he was influenced by American beat poets and we felt that creative people are better expressing their own environment than someone else's, so that night we decided to called ourselves the Dissenters and we made a pact to make Liverpool famous. John would do it with his music, Stuart and Rod with their painting and me with my writing.
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Geoff

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #101 on: May 18, 2008, 02:05:06 PM »

Quote from: 1062
When we went back to the Cracke we felt that he was influenced by American beat poets and we felt that creative people are better expressing their own environment than someone else's, so that night we decided to called ourselves the Dissenters and we made a pact to make Liverpool famous. John would do it with his music, Stuart and Rod with their painting and me with my writing.

I've read that Mark Lewisohn is paying a lot of attention to Liverpool in the fifties for the first of his new books. My impression is that that angle, which is surely crucial for putting the Beatles in context, hasn't been explored all that much. I may have just missed it or not looked in the right places, though.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #102 on: May 19, 2008, 09:10:09 AM »

Quote from: 1161

I've read that Mark Lewisohn is paying a lot of attention to Liverpool in the fifties for the first of his new books. My impression is that that angle, which is surely crucial for putting the Beatles in context, hasn't been explored all that much. I may have just missed it or not looked in the right places, though.

It's probably been done before in more academic books, not relating to The Beatles. I'm assuming that a large portion of the first book will be about how the caracter, personality, and humour of the people of Liverpool has been shaped over the years. I imagine that he'll start just before WWII.
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pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #103 on: May 19, 2008, 10:24:20 AM »

why just b4 the war?the 45s didn't start making their way to pool until during the war....

Kevin

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #104 on: May 19, 2008, 02:52:09 PM »

Quote from: 284
why just b4 the war?the 45s didn't start making their way to pool until during the war....

I guess because that generally is seen as a turning point from a prosperous industrial port to a nest of work-shy hubcap thieving scousers (sorry - I meant fun loving and friendly.) the first Labour government, end of National Service, collapse of the dockyards, rock and roll post date the war. It would be a sensible place to start.
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pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2008, 10:26:53 PM »

why not in 1935...billy eckstien was back then.i think...

pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2008, 10:27:20 PM »

does anyone remember billy???

pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #107 on: May 19, 2008, 10:32:26 PM »

ooops that was 39 he came out...my mom said he had a pompador like little richard in the 40s and thinks little richard stole his flambouyant style from him too...

pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #108 on: May 19, 2008, 10:36:17 PM »

you gotta go back to older jazz to really trace it to the roots...who were the jazzers b4 1940 sir william??

pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #109 on: May 19, 2008, 10:40:04 PM »

Big Band Swing
Though the appearance of Benny Goodman and his big band in 1935 at the Palomar Ballroom in Los Angeles is considered to be the "official" start of the Big Bands, the style had been brewing for over a decade, starting out in New Orleans as Dixieland jazz.

Swing became increasingly popular thanks in part to radio play of such legends as Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington and Glenn Miller. The style of music and dance spreading from dancehall to dancehall on both coasts with variations of the swing dance appearing in different regions of the country like the Lindy hop and Jitterbug......then there were bluesmen...robert johnson...
i borrowed the gist of this...

Bobber

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #110 on: May 20, 2008, 08:25:15 AM »

Sure. But that music had an other origin as well. The Beatles' parents listened to a certain kind of music which influenced their offspring. You gotta start somewhere.
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pc31

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #111 on: May 20, 2008, 09:43:19 AM »

ok in the begininng there was light....

alexis

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2008, 07:35:20 PM »

Quote from: 284
ok in the begininng there was light....

No, no, before that  :)

There were four elementary particles, that later joined to create space-time in a most harmonious sort of way  :)

The names of these four particles were ... :

1) ____________________
2) ____________________
3) ____________________
4) ____________________
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I love John,
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And George and Ringo,
I love them all!

Alexis

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2008, 09:15:12 PM »

Quote from: 284
ok in the begininng there was light....


No, seriously ...

I love listening to the Andrews Sisters. No, wait, let me explain, please!

Andrews Sisters
They were a girl group from MN that sang in the 30's, 40's, 50's and probably beyond. They were 3 sisters that could harmonize INCREDIBLY. Like our boys, they were singing together since childhood, even earlier than John, Paul and George! Here is a clip to one of their most famous songs, "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy"



and here is another less famous one that shows off how much they can do with their voices - slurs, scat, etc. ... all in perfect 3-part harmony ("Hold Tight" )!



I like to imagine that there is a direct line from these queens of 3-part harmony, through the black girl groups and other groups of the 50's that the Beatles cut their teeth on when they were learning to sing, straight through to John, Paul, and George. I remember reading George or Paul said the first song they learned 3-part harmony to was the Teddy Bear's "To Know Him is to Love Him" *. Then there were the great harmonies of the Cookies, who did Chains ** , the Marvelletes who did "Please Mr. Postman", the Shirelles who did " Baby It's You" *** , and lots of others. The Beatles loved all of them, and recorded them almost unchanged from the original versions. Not a bad cover band, those Beatles!


* "To Know Him is to Love Him" - The Teddy Bears : That was a Phil Spector song, title based on his father's tombstone epitaph (cry) . Funny how the music business seems to work, with him almost 2 decades later producing (or overproducing, depending on your taste) their Let it Be album, and later producing one of John's hits, after brandishing a live pistol in the recording studio ("We do it my way, OK John?").  Here's an early version of "To Know Him is to Love Him" for some 50s TV show. Corny as can be, but I think this may be the very version that the 3 boys sat around and listened to, studied how to sing, and performed on stage, and ultimately at their Decca Audition! Just about note-for-note! You be the judge ... :

Phil Spector's version (is this actually him as one of the Teddy Bears?):




^^ I have tears in my eyes as I watch this. Some young kids, all dressed up in borrowed studio fancy wear, helping set the course for music for decades to come. They don't even know it ... Back home to chores later that night, oh come on Dad, please can I go out tonight...

"To Know Him is to Love Him" - The Beatles And now the Beatles version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbGsPapwKfg&feature=related (Embedding disabled, limit reached)


[Edited] And here's "To Know Him is to Love Him", Amy Winehouse doing the same tune!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHdAVOiw6Q&feature=related (Embedding disabled, limit reached)


** "Chains",  The Cookies:

http://oldschoolmusiclover.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/chains-as-performed-by-the-cookies-1963/

Man, I swear I can hear Paul harmonizing right in there! Again, the Beatles didn't vary too much at all from the vocals. That makes me think they learned this song really early as well, when they were learning to do harmony ("let's learn it just like this, then we'll know how to do stuff like this, so we have a vocal base to explore from later" ... they probably never said).

Interestingly, Chains was written by Carole King (and her husband Gerry Goffin), who was one of John's and Paul's greatest song-writing idols in the late 50's and early '60s! "We want to be like them" they pretty much said in interviews. It was originally performed by The Cookies, who were the back up group to Carole King's babysitter ... otherwise known as Little Eva (of Little Eva and the Imperials). Carole King wrote her first hit, "Locomotion", inspired by Little Eva's singing and dancing, and had her sing the demo track. When it was presented to Don Kirschner, he decided "demo track-schmemo track", and released it as it was ... Carole King's first #1 hit!

http://www.history-of-rock.com/cookies.htm

http://www.history-of-rock.com/little_eva.htm

The Cookies later on wound up being Ray Charles backup singers, the Ray-lettes. Old joke - you couldn't be a Ray-lette unless you let Ray  ;)


*** "Baby It's You", The Shirelles:

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Shirelles/+videos/+1-6gK6cHFYf2U (Embedding disabled, limit reached)


 Funny how the instrumental break is pretty much just want George played on the guitar (and George Martin doubling on the piano?, I can't remember), and the fade out is exactly what John did on his version. Those boys knew something good when they heard it!


"Baby It's You", A Group Called Smith
And finally here's a version of the same song, "Baby It's You", by A Group Called Smith, in the late 60's. Turned out to be the highest charting version! ...

http://www.last.fm/music/Smith/+videos/+1-hCD5GpmFHUg (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

Can I say I think I might like it even better than John's vocals?


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And George and Ringo,
I love them all!

Alexis

alexis

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2008, 09:43:38 PM »

Quote from: 216
Air, water, fire, and something else. Or am I way off here?

Paul would be the air for me. John the fire. I don't know about the other two. I guess Ringo would be: other. Heh.

I didn't have any answers myself, but I like the way you went on them!

John definitely "Fire" ,and I like Paul being "Air" also. How about Ringo being "Earth"? What about George? Water? (He did sing "Wah Wah" on ? ATMP?)  :)
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I love John,
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I love them all!

Alexis

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2008, 09:48:32 PM »

Neil Aspinall.............of course, from this "aspinall lover"..............
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Sondra

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2008, 10:46:20 PM »

Quote from: 568

I didn't have any answers myself, but I like the way you went on them!

John definitely "Fire" ,and I like Paul being "Air" also. How about Ringo being "Earth"? What about George? Water? (He did sing "Wah Wah" on ? ATMP?)  :)

At first I thought George would definitely be earth. Cuz he's, well, earthy! But then Ringo always seemed to be the most grounded and of this world. So I think earth suits him. Water goes through everything and is very other worldly in a way. It takes many shapes and can be very strong as well. Sort of like George!

Honestly, I have no idea what I'm talking about and I know it's off topic, so sorry. But I think it's interesting comparing them to ancient elements. It sort of fits the whole, everything came from them thing that Beatle obsessives innatley believe.  ;)
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alexis

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2008, 11:03:27 PM »

Quote from: 216

At first I thought George would definitely be earth. Cuz he's, well, earthy! But then Ringo always seemed to be the most grounded and of this world. So I think earth suits him. Water goes through everything and is very other worldly in a way. It takes many shapes and can be very strong as well. Sort of like George!

Honestly, I have no idea what I'm talking about and I know it's off topic, so sorry. But I think it's interesting comparing them to ancient elements. It sort of fits the whole, everything came from them thing that Beatle obsessives inatley believe.  ;)

Moi? Us?

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Alexis

Bill Harry

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2008, 08:34:08 PM »

God, I just wish the term 'The 5th Beatle' hadn't come into existence. The Beatles, as we all know them, were John, Paul, George and Ringo. There was no one else in the line-up. Brian Epstein managed them, George Martin recorded them, Pete Best and Stuart Sutcliffe were former members, but the Beatles were a quartet, there wasn't a fifth Beatle. Let's refer to Brian as their manager, to George as their recording manager, to Neil as their friend, to Pete and Stuart as former members and let's leave it at that.
If there were five Beatles playing together on stage, or recording together, let's all into the secret.
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DaveRam

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Re: Who's the 5th Beatle?
« Reply #119 on: June 20, 2008, 10:39:03 AM »

Surely the 5th Beatle is each and every FAN ? you don't have much of anything without that special ingredient (wink1)
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