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Author Topic: Beatles as innovators  (Read 16916 times)

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2010, 03:40:32 PM »

Agreed. The crucial point is that putting distorted or maipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966. Yes, The Beatles did it exceptionally well, yes The beatles added their own additions to the sounds (backwards tapes etc) but so did other acts. It was part of a general trend, with different acts adding different aspects.
My arguement is that The Beatles contributed to the idea (in glorious fashion) but didn't invent it.

 
Again you have no arguement. Putting distorted or manipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966 which is kind of true but still wasn’t that common though. But why single out the Beatles again. The Beatles did a lot for this area also. “Tomorrow Never Knows” vocals are altered by using their vocals through a leslie speaker quickly adopted by many. The Beatles used Automatic Double tracking in which everyone uses today. The Beatles “Think For Yourself” is layered with two bass sounds one a regular bass and the other lead fuzz bass up front like a lead guitar. There is a distorted piano feedback at the end of “Penny Lane”. They hooked up harmoniums and pianos through guitar amps to cause distortion. “Strawberry Fields Forever” mellotron is hooked up by a leslie speaker.

There are so many examples.

Backward tapes were not really common in 1966 it was only used by a few people in pop music but rarely in rock music. I don't care if the Beatles were not the first to use backward tape. Why should the Beatles be singled out there? I don't get what you are trying to accomplish. Of course the Beatles did innovative things with backward tape. The backward vocal fade-out on "Rain", the backward guitar leads on "I'm Only Sleeping" or the backward mellotron parts on "Flying" or all those backward loops on "Tomorrow Never Knows". All of those are examples of using backward tape in terms of creating psychedelic music. Of course that invents a new way to use the studio as an instrument. Joe Meek didn’t have a psychedelic music in mind in 1960. His music was emulating science fiction sounds not the psychedelic experience.


 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 03:46:27 PM by Musicfan67 »
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2010, 03:51:12 PM »

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. No one creates music in a vacuum they all influenced each other.
I'm trying to accomplish just that - no one creates music in a vacuum. I'm singling out The Beatles because this is Beatles forum and Beatle fans say that they invented this genre or that genre.
I'm not trying to find firsts (like the art rock thing). I was arguing against someone who was saying Sgt Pepper was the first. I'm not sure what was.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2010, 04:02:22 PM »

I'm trying to accomplish just that - no one creates music in a vacuum. I'm singling out The Beatles because this is Beatles forum and Beatle fans say that they invented this genre or that genre.
I'm not trying to find firsts (like the art rock thing). I was arguing against someone who was saying Sgt Pepper was the first. I'm not sure what was.

 Look without Revolver there would be no Sgt. Pepper. Much of what is going on Sgt. Pepper is an extension of Revolver and “Penny Lane”/”Strawberry Fields Forever”.

 Again Sgt. Pepper was heralded for its experimentation, songwriting and for the album structure. Sgt Pepper is barely a concept album to begin with. The album concept is about an imaginary band. The imaginary band could write imaginary songs about imaginary people and situations. Again the structure of an opening song with the next track being segued into each other and then the opening track is reprised at the end with another track segued as finale  basically became the variation of many concept albums to follow. Bob Dylan was great lyrically but in terms of experimentation musically and using the studio as an instrument the Beatles blow him away. I don't think Dylan thought in those terms. For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 04:18:17 PM by Musicfan67 »
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2010, 04:29:59 PM »

  Bob Dylan was great lyrically but in terms of experimentation musically and using the studio as an instrument the Beatles blow him away. I don't think Dylan think in those terms. For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.



Agreed. It wasn't his thing. Again, I'm not picking up Pepper on details. I know The Beatles contributed new things to the prog rock genre. I'm not arguing that. And I know your not saying it was the first concept album (or even that it's one at all) but someone else did. That was the point I was questioning.
I'm sure between us we could both come up with a huge list of "first time this instrument was produced in this way" etc. They showed innovation in that regard, but so did others. Maybe not as good, but contributions all the same.The Beatles did add detail, bitt it's the idea of the genre I'm arguing against.
Look, I really respect your opinion. But we seem to be on the side - that change comes from many places, and its damn hard to pin down a "here and now" for most big musical changes.
I think one of The Beatles greatest talents was the ability to absorb all that was going on around them, popular and underground, and turn it into an excellent finished piece for the masses. They took the muddled messes of other peoples  ideas (as those people had probably taken off someone else) and made it okay to be played on the radio. (mostly, excepting the occassional ban.) To take Freak Out, my big example. It's a hard listen, and not actually that good, and no way ever going to be commercially succesful, and therefore no way a major influence on culture. John said Pepper was going to be "their freak Out." And with their genius and unlimited resources they produced a package that blew everyone way. That takes real talent.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2010, 06:36:35 PM »

For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.


1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV)




;)
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2010, 06:57:14 PM »

as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha


1961...

The Marvelettes - Please Mr Postman


...The Marvelettes sang it the same way.


...just setting history straight a bit.  I feel like Marty McFly!   ;D
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2010, 06:57:56 PM »

1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV)



;)


The track is sped up tape of recorded music which of course was actual music being played. "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite" and well as "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Revolution #9" backing tracks are tape loops and dubs to create musical sounds almost like synthesizer. Musique Concrete artists work in this and I am sure Joe Meek has done something similiar to this also.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #47 on: December 10, 2010, 07:22:15 PM »

1964...

Millie Small - My Boy Lollipop


Millie Small



1956...

my boy lollipop barbie gaye


Barbie Gaye

A minor Rhythm and Blues hit in 1956.  But this is an example of what Kevin has been saying.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2010, 07:24:01 PM »

By the way, that's Rod Stewart on harmonica backing up Millie Small.
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2010, 07:33:22 PM »

1961...
...The Marvelettes sang it the same way.

oh yea, i kno HG. that's what i meant by john lennon's 'take' on the accent
his delivery is ever so slightly different then the marvelettes and for some reason it really cracks me up  ;D
(geoff emrick's book says john went around the studio with his funny fake jamaican accent during the obladi sessions - RELEASE THE TAPES!)  ha2ha
-

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yes, millie small was a cover version but it was the one that charted  . . in '64 -
1956?! man, that original version you posted is really early - and somehow it still sounds like (yet to be invented(?)) ska with it's offbeat
-
i think if you trace ska roots to american soul, . . jazz, calypso, mento - it can kind of ping pong back onto itself like the chicken and the egg.
but alot of the early ska was heavily american r&b and soul influenced . . .  even a few beatle covers in there
THE CLARENDONIANS - YOU WON ' T SEE ME.wmv

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strangely (or not) the original ska came more from jazz bands
the skatalites before they stumbled onto the signature ska sound were basically a jazz combo . . . . with some island flavor

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note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2010, 07:37:18 PM »

1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV)



;)


ok, this post was both relavant to the thread AND seasonally appropriate  ha2ha  ;D
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2010, 07:41:13 PM »

note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol

Awwwwww...  Darnit!  Well, the rumour ends here then.  Yes, that is too bad.  It would have been "too classic."

So, let's give three cheers and one cheer more for Jimmy Powell!  He really made that song.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #52 on: December 10, 2010, 08:25:13 PM »

ok, this post was both relavant to the thread AND seasonally appropriate  ha2ha  ;D


Yes it is.

David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian, Sr.) was an innovator in his own right.  He would have the chorus sing slowly an octave lower and then speed up the tape to proper key.  This was 9 years before Vari-Control as used by George Martin.

Here, from early 1958, is David Seville's "Witch Doctor:"

Witch Doctor - David Seville 78 rpm!




And so, Alvin And The Chipmunks came to be.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #53 on: December 10, 2010, 08:30:19 PM »

i think if you trace ska roots to american soul, . . jazz, calypso, mento - it can kind of ping pong back onto itself like the chicken and the egg.
but alot of the early ska was heavily american r&b and soul influenced

Well put.  That's Ska.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2010, 08:49:11 PM »

The track is sped up tape of recorded music which of course was actual music being played.

Right.  Like Vari-Control and Vari-Speed used a decade later.

George Martin used Vari-Control in his editing of Strawberry Fields Forever.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2010, 08:58:08 PM »

David Seville





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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2010, 09:27:52 PM »

good stuff!
what ever happened to the novelty record!
-
as to the beatles using snippets . .
especially on rev#9 . .
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i've always thought that dickie goodman's 'break in' records were ahead of their time!
a true forerunner/pioneer to the use of sampling in rap
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i first heard him in the 70s with 'mr jaws' but he was on the sample/snippet bandwaggon from the mid 50s!
Buchanan & Goodman - The Flying Saucer (Parts 1 & 2)
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2010, 10:41:29 PM »

note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol


Wait a minute!  According to this article, Dimensions' bassist Louis Cennamo says it was Dimension Peter Hogman, not Jimmy Powell, who played that famous harmonica solo:

http://www.willbirch.com/Rod%20Stewart%20-%20The%20Graveyard%20Shift.htm


This all reminds me of that scene in All You Need Is Cash...Ruttling Orange Peel..."Yes sir!  I originated the Rutles.  They got it all from me.  Every single bit of it!"

The Rutles All You Need Is Cash: Part 3


(go to 5:35)
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2010, 11:13:50 PM »

Snippets and tape loops...

The Mellotron:

Mike Pinder describes how the mellotron works




...a bit before Tomorrow Never Knows
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2010, 01:18:01 AM »

hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .


1957...

RICHARD BERRY Louie Louie 1957



                                  
Richard Berry
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