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Author Topic: Beatles as innovators  (Read 19375 times)

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2010, 04:40:44 AM »

Banned from the airwaves in some places too!  Kids were buying the record just to figure out what obscenities were being sung!

The Kingsmen's Louie Louie was a precursor to clue-finding in Beatles records (<----this way we stay "on topic"  ;)).

Louie,Louie--The Kingsmen

Louie Louie - The Kingsmen


Turned out to be nuthin' with nuthin'


I don’t know what this has to with the Beatles. People were looking for backward messages on Beatles songs that hinted Paul McCartney had died. Which of course was crazy.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 04:54:42 AM by Musicfan67 »
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2010, 04:53:37 AM »

this whole song that les paul multitracked is awesome but check out around 1:10 . . descending harmonizing guitar lead driving the song . .
Les Paul - "Lover"


Thanks for the link but it's not the same thing but nice try.  "And Your Bird Can Sing", where George and Paul (both on guitar) play in harmony with each other like a twin lead guitar attack. Think Thin Lizzy, having two guitarists, made great use of this, as did many other bands. Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues, for instance, would usually add (overdub) additional harmony lines to the recordings (The Land of Make Believe, You and Me and Isn't Life Strange are great examples. ). "
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #102 on: December 13, 2010, 05:11:27 AM »

Snippets and tape loops...

The Mellotron:

Mike Pinder describes how the mellotron works



...a bit before Tomorrow Never Knows



There is a difference between a mellotron than actually what is going on “Tomorrow Never Knows”. McCartney supplied a bag of ¼ inch audio tape loops he had made at home after listening to Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge. By disabling the erase head of a tape recorder and then spooling a continuous loop of tape through the machine while recording, the tape would constantly overdub itself, creating a saturation effect, a technique used in musique concrète. There at least six different loops some of this contain these sounds.

 A "seagull" or "American Indian" whooping effect (which was McCartney shouting/laughing).
An orchestral chord of B flat major (from a Sibelius symphony) (0:19)
A Mellotron Mk.II, played with the "flute" tape set (0:22)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #103 on: December 13, 2010, 05:19:50 AM »

I don’t know what this has to with the Beatles. People were looking for backward messages on Beatles songs that hinted Paul McCartney had died. Which of course was crazy.


Yes, we strayed a bit, Musicfan67, but we were commenting on John using a Caribbean accent in Mr. Postman...Deliver de letter, the sooner de better.  You picked up on my attempt to show that people were listening to records at assorted speeds trying to decipher lyrics about three years before everyone was doing that with Beatles records (as I mentioned in my post).  ;)
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #104 on: December 13, 2010, 05:28:09 AM »


There is a difference between a mellotron than actually what is going on “Tomorrow Never Knows”. McCartney supplied a bag of ¼ inch audio tape loops he had made at home after listening to Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge. By disabling the erase head of a tape recorder and then spooling a continuous loop of tape through the machine while recording, the tape would constantly overdub itself, creating a saturation effect, a technique used in musique concrète. There at least six different loops some of this contain these sounds.

 A "seagull" or "American Indian" whooping effect (which was McCartney shouting/laughing).
An orchestral chord of B flat major (from a Sibelius symphony) (0:19)
A Mellotron Mk.II, played with the "flute" tape set (0:22)



I'm quite aware of the difference.  I meant that George Martin used the design of the mellotron as a basis for his own innovative use of the tape deck to produce Tomorrow Never Knows.

Innovations frequently elaborate on previous innovations.  I learned that in the few years I did research in physiology.  And even in my career, surgery, current surgical techniques and instrumentation have evolved from previous techniques and technology.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #105 on: December 13, 2010, 05:30:41 AM »

Thanks, An Apple Beatle.  I'm not sure, but I think the original Leon Theremin version of the theremin is the only instrument played without touching it.  It really is difficult to play...

Theremin Lesson One


The Moog Synthesizer secondary metal strip keyboard is a whole lot easier to play.  You can see in the video I posted that Mike Love has a keyboard card mounted above the strip.  Still, he's concentrating very hard on playing the Moog while singing at the same time. 

Here's the full version:

The Beach Boys Good Vibrations.


So, The Beatles first used the Moog Synthesizer recording Abbey Road, three years after The Beach Boys.  Hopefully Joost will spot this thread.  I'm sure he can comment further on The Beach Boys' use of the Moog Synthesizer.



By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans. Does it matter the Beatles didn’t use a Theremin or synthesizer before the Beach Boys? I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron or sitars. 
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2010, 05:32:32 AM »

Music, surgery and other fields will continue to evolve.  In a previous post, i used the word continuum.  I think this concept is quite relevant to this thread.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2010, 05:34:33 AM »

I'm quite aware of the difference.  I meant that George Martin used the design of the mellotron as a basis for his own innovative use of the tape deck to produce Tomorrow Never Knows.

Innovations frequently elaborate on previous innovations.  I learned that in the few years I did research in physiology.  And even in my career, surgery, current surgical techniques and instrumentation have evolved from previous techniques and technology.

I like George Martin but the loops were Paul McCartney idea not George Martin on "Tomorrow Never Knows". The Beatles were well aware of the mellotron back in 1965.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #108 on: December 13, 2010, 05:37:31 AM »

Music, surgery and other fields will continue to evolve.  In a previous post, i used the word continuum.  I think this concept is quite relevant to this thread.

Honestly what do you mean when you say continuum?
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2010, 05:41:21 AM »

By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans. Does it matter the Beatles didn’t use a Theremin or synthesizer before the Beach Boys? I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron or sitars.  

Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2010, 05:41:50 AM »

Yes, we strayed a bit, Musicfan67, but we were commenting on John using a Caribbean accent in Mr. Postman...Deliver de letter, the sooner de better.  You picked up on my attempt to show that people were listening to records at assorted speeds trying to decipher lyrics about three years before everyone was doing that with Beatles records (as I mentioned in my post).  ;)

It's kind of frustrating this thread. People were looking for backward messages in Beatles records which is a totally different technique than what is going on with "Louie Louie".
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2010, 05:48:24 AM »

Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.

I will give you an example why I think this thread is frustrating. When the Beatles were using change of speeds, loops, backward tape or putting their vocals through a leslie speaker for the purpose of creating psychedelic music. Of course that's an innovation it was basically new way to produce music. I have people then mentioning Joe Meek using some of the same things but he was not creating music with psychedelic rock in mind.

Then I have to explain what’s the difference between “Tomorrow Never Knows” and a song Joe Meek did in 1960 or what the Beatles did with “And Your Bird Can Sing” to a song that was recorded in the 1940’s.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 05:53:33 AM by Musicfan67 »
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Bobber

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2010, 11:19:16 AM »

By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans.

Relax Musicfan. Your opinion is much appreciated and the discussion is a tough one with strong points from both sides. Nothing wrong with that. It's all Beatlesfans here, but that doesn't mean everybody takes everything for granted, including Kevin.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2010, 12:00:27 PM »

Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.

Here, here sir. Everyone has got 'their' take on The Beatles. All depends on your journey of discovery and the other things you open your mind up to. It's all selective. :)
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2010, 06:08:50 PM »

Relax Musicfan. Your opinion is much appreciated and the discussion is a tough one with strong points from both sides. Nothing wrong with that. It's all Beatlesfans here, but that doesn't mean everybody takes everything for granted, including Kevin.

 I think people like Kevin and I notice many other people sort of resent the Beatles. So the tact they will go after is if the Beatles were the not exact first to have a sitar on pop recording though the idea never went through for example well they did nothing with it. I am the other way around George Harrison actually played, and incorporated the instrument into their records unlike the Yardbirds Jeff Beck.

The Beatles music is both simple and sophisticated. There music always provided an easy point of entry that hooks us yet subtle and complex enough that set them apart from the mundane. The blend of simplicity and sophistication was key to their commercial and artistic success. They had their own sound and had an uncanny ability to absorb outside influences and integrate them seamlessly into their sound.

The Beatles were not the first to use overdubbing or multitracking it had been around for awhile. But starting with Rubber Soul and peaking in Sgt. Pepper. The Beatles use of it and style achieved tremendous results that they inspired legions of imitators. Songs like “Eleanor Rigby” and “A Day in the Life” expanded the range of rock music and people started to associate those songs to high art. Because of all this the Beatles had a huge influence on the sound of rock music. Rock records from 1962 to 1970 sounded a lot different, they were better produced and offered a lot broader palette of sounds

The main difference between the Beatles and Dylan is that Dylan did it mainly with words the Beatles did it music, studio and words. The Beatles there is a beautiful coordination between lyrics and significant musical features that you hear on “Eleanor Rigby” and “A Day in the Life”.

Bob Dylan influenced the Beatles lyrically to write more meaningful and less teen orientated music. But the Beatles were expanding their sound world in a more adventurous and in encompassing way. Bob Dylan drew on existing pop styles and used them in a more serious lyrical approach. The Beatles by contrast reached further away from musical traditions far removed from rock and roll traditions like classical Indian music or string quartets playing classical music. Moreover they synthesized these aspects seamlessly into their music that it became the fabric behind their music

The Beatles and Dylan was part of the explosion that created a new sound world that took over the marketplace. You had Motown, soul and the merging of various rock subgenres. There were other groups were working in the same path as the Beatles and Bob Dylan like Brian Wilson, the Who and Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. But no one did more to make rock a form of a compelling expression as an art form more than the Beatles and Bob Dylan.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2010, 05:33:33 AM »

I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron 


Right.  They used a Chamberlin, a precursor to the Mellotron...

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2010, 05:39:30 AM »

Honestly what do you mean when you say continuum?

Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles.



You seem to already know what continuum means.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2010, 06:20:52 AM »

"And Your Bird Can Sing", where George and Paul (both on guitar) play in harmony with each other like a twin lead guitar attack. Think Thin Lizzy, having two guitarists, made great use of this, as did many other bands. Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues, for instance, would usually add (overdub) additional harmony lines to the recordings (The Land of Make Believe, You and Me and Isn't Life Strange are great examples. ). "

And Your Bird Can Sing was a favorite of mine the moment I first heard it on Yesterday....And Today in 1966.  I realized shortly afterward that it was a dual guitar harmony which explained my initial fascination with this song.

Several years later when I studied blues guitar, my teacher, Ian Buchanan who was studying jazz guitar at the time, explained some of the history of dual guitar harmony.  He would often play harmony to my solo riffs.  That really sounded great, but after a few bars, I would mess up my solo as I started to concentrate on what notes he was playing.  He would laugh and tell me that I would never be able to play in a band.  I would agree and remind him that I had other career objectives.  I did get better after a while and we would finish my lessons with about ten minutes of nice duo guitar work.

As I mentioned, my teacher was studying jazz guitar.  Sometimes he would play me some recordings he had of of jazz artists like George Barnes and Carl Cress playing dual jazz guitar harmonies.  Joe Pass and Herb Ellis also would break into harmony solos.

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2010, 11:10:18 AM »

Wishbone Ash were pretty good at dual guitar solo's as well.
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2010, 04:17:09 PM »

Yes they were!

So were these guys...

Allman Brothers - Jessica




Dickey Betts and his son Duane show us how it's done:

Dickie Betts & son Duane show how to play Jessica


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