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Author Topic: Religion  (Read 12175 times)

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Joost

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Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2006, 10:26:42 AM »

I believe in a higher power but I dislike organized religion. I think most religions are too focussed on senseless rituals and are mostly about people wanting to control other people. Belief in God is a pure thing, organized religion is a human invention. You can read every religious book that has ever been written, but you're still as clueless as a new born baby because they all contain theories and ideas but no facts or certainties.

I think that way that Jesus Christ is usually portrayed is a nice, small example of what religion is really about. If you see a painting or a statue of Jesus Christ he's usually a blue-eyed arian, while it's pretty clear that that's not how he looked since he came from what is now Israel. Which means that the catholic church really prefers old human-made traditions over the obvious truth. Which is a safe thing to do because that way you don't have to be open minded, you can never be wrong and you never have to change your mind.

I personally think that being a good human being is about treating everyone like you want to be treated yourself and having respect for all life and not about reading certain books, going to church, saying prayers (even though I have nothing against those things) and certainly not about hating people for their religion, interests or sexuals preferences.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2006, 12:33:16 PM »

Quote from: Mairi
You ask me to prove that God exists. Well, prove to me that He doesn't exist.

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2006, 12:48:34 PM »

Quote from: Biscuit_Power
I believe in a higher power but I dislike organized religion. I think most religions are too focussed on senseless rituals and are mostly about people wanting to control other people.
I don't think that's  fair. Our lives are full of "senseless ritual". Check out a wedding, or the opening of parliament, a graduation, a birthday party, the olympics or any organised event. Rituals are part of our lives, religious or not. Humans love ritual. Religion's just playing to the crowd, like everything else.
Religion does produce control-freaks, but again that's humanity, not religion. Religious people like gathering together and sharing, just like we do about the Beatles. And we need guidance and a little help every now and then. Dimitry is our very own Beatle-pope, and The End is a our bishop. .

I am godless. But it must be nice (and good for you) to gather with your neighbours and have a prayer and a good old communal sing-song (and that is as far as the vast magority of religious people go) Remember people fight and riot over poltics and sport and music. I'm happy to believe that most religious people are good decent people, and that religion makes them better people, and that religion is important for bonding groups together.
These days everyone goes on about not knowing their neighbours, of the general loss of respect in society, of people no longer having the moral boundaries our parents generation had. All things that religion used to perform in our society.
Maybe the two are not disconnected.
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Joost

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Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2006, 02:11:30 PM »

(double post)
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Joost

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2006, 02:11:35 PM »

Quote from: kevin_b

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.

I agree with Mairi here. My belief in a higher power that created everything isn't based on a gut feeling but on logic. I accept the Big Bang theory, but I just don't believe that the incredibly complex living beings that we are with our incredibly complex minds and the incredibly complex world that we live in just formed themselves out of some space dust. I just don't buy that. I just don't believe that all that happened without the help of a creator. To me that sounds just as unlikely as the concept of a God sounds to atheists.

I think I'm as sceptical as most atheists, I just look at it from a different point of view.
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Joost

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Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2006, 02:14:43 PM »

Quote from: kevin_b
I don't think that's  fair. Our lives are full of "senseless ritual". Check out a wedding, or the opening of parliament, a graduation, a birthday party, the olympics or any organised event.

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2006, 02:25:37 PM »

Quote from: Biscuit_Power

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.

I wasn't trying to say religion is the same as marriage etc, just that the need for apparently "senseless"  ritual is a human thing, not a religious thing.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2006, 02:36:58 PM »

Quote from: Biscuit_Power

 I accept the Big Bang theory, but I just don't believe that the incredibly complex living beings that we are with our incredibly complex minds and the incredibly complex world that we live in just formed themselves out of some space dust. I just don't buy that. I just don't believe that all that happened without the help of a creator. To me that sounds just as unlikely as the concept of a God sounds to atheists.

.

I totally agree with you there. Even Prof Stephen Hawkins, the arch scientist, said something like "if there is no god, then why does the universe bother to exist?"
But, I can't buy the God thing either. So I've gone for the line of least resistance and am favouring an explanation that my stupid ape brain has a chance of grasping. And that is that there was no moment of creation. The universe has always been here, expanding and retracting, but constant. I know that based on our own experience everything has to have a beginning (and an end), and it is suspending belief to think that something can just always be. But I found that little problem easier to get round than gods and big bangs.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2006, 02:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Biscuit_Power

I agree with Mairi here. My belief in a higher power that created everything isn't based on a gut feeling but on logic. .

I have to say though that deducing that because science can't explain the beginnining of the universe that that means a "higher intelligence" did it doesn't seem remarkably logical to me.
A logical answer would be "I don't know."
But us stupid humans always have to have an answer (whether it be science or religion.)  :)

ps - my doubts about science only extend to the creation bit. I'm with it pretty much 100% on everything else.
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Mairi

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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2006, 08:50:44 PM »

Quote from: Biscuit_Power

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.

In life, and particularly religion, it is usually the idiots who are the loudest. Just because there are a bunch of loud idiots out there making the rest of us look bad, it does NOT mean that everyone shares their views about same sex marriage, etc. In fact the idiots are usually not in the majority. Just to clarify.



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adamzero

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2006, 09:40:35 PM »

The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: February 15, 2006, 11:00:03 PM »

Quote from: adamzero
The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.

Yeah? But that's just selfish thinking. lol.....joking. It's a valid point ;D
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somedude210

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2006, 11:12:43 PM »

Quote from: adamzero
The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.

ah, its all relative, its like are we really moving even when we stand still?  :P

so are we all dreaming or do we truely exist? its amazing to think of our life as possibly a dream and none of us actually exist. its all in our minds. its a weird thing that we are in this one spec of time and will never know what really happened before us and wont know what happens after we die.
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adamzero

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: February 15, 2006, 11:19:43 PM »

I think most religion is selfish, or at least self-interested, both in learning why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing.   I think the moment of transcendence comes when you realize that the purpose of the universe is not you--it moves on "within you and without you" (great line, one of the beatles best), but that you are somehow connected to that larger something.

Don't worry about believing in God if that is a barrier to your intellect.  Believe in yourself and the authenticity of your own experience and you will be brought to God.  That is, your true self, not the self foisted upon you by illusion (TV, pop culture, parents, etc.).  I think this is the truly subversive message of the Beatles.  They used pop culture to preach transcendence of inauthentic Levittown selves.  Find your true self and you move beyond the concept of self.  I think this is what John Lennon experienced in a song "given" to him such as "Across the Universe" or Paul in "Let it Be."  Both are highly spiritually charged songs.  A connection happens.  The singer becomes the song and ceases to be a limited finite self.

I think that's one of the main reasons the Beatles are so important.  They cut through to something forgotten, authentic, that the world desperately needs now.  That's why religion comes up on this board and why the Beatles are far more important than bands like the Stones who playact magic and satanism, but do not cut through to authentic spiritual experience (at least not every often).  

The Beatles each gave up part of themselves to become Beatles.  In the post-Beatle period they floundered, but once they had lost the sacrifice of themselves, they filled up the missing parts of their identity with inauthentic show-biz crutches (with the exception of POB and ATMP) where enough of the Beatle unity carried over.  
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Sondra

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: February 15, 2006, 11:47:05 PM »

Quote from: kevin_b

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.

And non-religous people are saying that their isn't. So what's the difference. And I think you can pretty much prove the non-existence of vampires. I mean, that's like saying there may be unicorns and elves wandering around somewhere. I mean, we know there are no dragons and a Santa Clause either right? I mean, that's called being an adult.

Anyway, I think the burden of proof lies with whoever is trying to convince the other that they are right. You can't very well prove he doesn't exist can you? Just as you can't prove that he does. It's really pointless, but if one is trying to convince the other, then they should have some proof. Or at least a good theory.
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Sondra

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: February 15, 2006, 11:54:42 PM »

Quote from: somedude210

ah, its all relative, its like are we really moving even when we stand still?  :P

so are we all dreaming or do we truely exist? its amazing to think of our life as possibly a dream and none of us actually exist. its all in our minds. its a weird thing that we are in this one spec of time and will never know what really happened before us and wont know what happens after we die.

Now we're getting into philosophy. The most worthless degree you can obtain in college because really, what's the point? ;) It's the whole chicken and the egg thing. Why waist time on such trivialities. You are here and whether it's a dream or not, you still have to get up every morning and go to work and pay your bills. Unless you're Paris Hilton. So maybe she doesn't exist and is just a figment of our bored, reality tv obsessed imaginations.
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somedude210

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2006, 01:43:00 AM »

or a guy's "i wish my wife was more into stuff like her" fantasy(angel5)
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tkitna

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2006, 01:59:23 AM »

This thread will be 90 pages long before you know it!

Beatle Ed

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2006, 06:04:31 AM »

lol @ Tk, yeah and about as pointless at the end of the thread than it was at the beginning.
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Kevin

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Re: Religion
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2006, 09:03:49 AM »

Quote from: Maccalvr

. And I think you can pretty much prove the non-existence of vampires.

How? (and remember, proof please, not hearsay and assumption.)
Because, by your reasoning, if you can't that proves they do.
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